anti-corporate
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You ideas, I'd say yes
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Should we have a MAXIMUM wage law
- Thread starter anti-corporate
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> > You ideas, I'd say yes
>
> Why?
Enron, Worldcom, Global Crossing, Tyco, Adelphia....just to name a few reasons why. Being CEO, you get to pay yourself whatever the hell you want....whether is declared or not, you're still paying yourself....seriously tho...$10M/yr or $50M/yr....either way, you aren't starving.
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>
> Why?
Enron, Worldcom, Global Crossing, Tyco, Adelphia....just to name a few reasons why. Being CEO, you get to pay yourself whatever the hell you want....whether is declared or not, you're still paying yourself....seriously tho...$10M/yr or $50M/yr....either way, you aren't starving.
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> Enron, Worldcom, Global Crossing, Tyco, Adelphia....just to
> name a few reasons why. Being CEO, you get to pay yourself
> whatever the hell you want....whether is declared or not,
> you're still paying yourself....seriously tho...$10M/yr or
> $50M/yr....either way, you aren't starving.
I say no. It just doesn't make much sense, given the current economic system in this country.
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> name a few reasons why. Being CEO, you get to pay yourself
> whatever the hell you want....whether is declared or not,
> you're still paying yourself....seriously tho...$10M/yr or
> $50M/yr....either way, you aren't starving.
I say no. It just doesn't make much sense, given the current economic system in this country.
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SpaceTiger
New member
> No. Unless you want to turn all enterprise into organized
> crime and give birth to the most corrupt system ever
> devised.
I think the upper echelons of capitalist societies are already thoroughly corrupted. The system is designed to reward dishonesty. On the other hand, if you make this "maximum wage" small enough, then you have something that's approaching Communism and it would suffer from many of the same problems (e.g. lack of incentive). People should keep coming up with ideas, though, cause all of the options available right now pretty much suck.
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> crime and give birth to the most corrupt system ever
> devised.
I think the upper echelons of capitalist societies are already thoroughly corrupted. The system is designed to reward dishonesty. On the other hand, if you make this "maximum wage" small enough, then you have something that's approaching Communism and it would suffer from many of the same problems (e.g. lack of incentive). People should keep coming up with ideas, though, cause all of the options available right now pretty much suck.
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"And dreams may come
That are everlasting
Though all just plastic too..." </P>
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
I think the upper echelons of capitalist societies are already thoroughly corrupted. The system is designed to reward dishonesty.
<hr></blockquote>
What do you mean? I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just wondering how dishonesty is encouraged and rewarded. Seems like hard work and skill is often rewarded, though it certainly can be the other.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
On the other hand, if you make this "maximum wage" small enough, then you have something that's approaching Communism and it would suffer from many of the same problems (e.g. lack of incentive).
<hr></blockquote>
It sounds like redistrobution to me, you're entirely right. And it wouldn't happen without bloody revolt, Marx would agree!
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I think the upper echelons of capitalist societies are already thoroughly corrupted. The system is designed to reward dishonesty.
<hr></blockquote>
What do you mean? I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just wondering how dishonesty is encouraged and rewarded. Seems like hard work and skill is often rewarded, though it certainly can be the other.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
On the other hand, if you make this "maximum wage" small enough, then you have something that's approaching Communism and it would suffer from many of the same problems (e.g. lack of incentive).
<hr></blockquote>
It sounds like redistrobution to me, you're entirely right. And it wouldn't happen without bloody revolt, Marx would agree!
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> You ideas, I'd say yes
>
It wouldn't work. They'd find ways around it...as it is right now...people get gifts for just being who they are and in the position they're in. The 'gifts' are taxed of course, but, well...you get where I'm going with this.
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>
It wouldn't work. They'd find ways around it...as it is right now...people get gifts for just being who they are and in the position they're in. The 'gifts' are taxed of course, but, well...you get where I'm going with this.
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SpaceTiger
New member
> In reply to:I think the upper echelons of capitalist
> societies are already thoroughly corrupted. The system is
> designed to reward dishonesty.
>
> What do you mean?
Basically, I think capitalist systems are alright in the lower part of the income distribution. Although there's a lot of nepotism, hard work and skill can go a long way. In the upper parts, however, we basically have the leaders of corporations (and celebrities, but I'll come back to them in a moment). In order to reach that level, you have to step on a lot of toes or break a lot of rules, because you know that, otherwise, you can't beat those who do. So, the upper levels are largely scheming, dishonest pricks.
It's the same reason that dictators are always harsh and cruel -- that's how you have to be to become a dictator. Corporations have none of the internal checks and balances that a democratic government does, so they will ultimately do whatever it takes to make money. You can say that the same is true of Joe Shmoe convenience store, but the difference is that he doesn't have any power. Any rules he might break are likely to land him in jail.
So what would it be like to have an honest person with a lot of money? Just look at celebrities. They'll either donate huge fractions of their income to charities or just spend it on themselves, neither of which is particularly threatening to the rest of the nation. If all of this nation's wealthy were like that, I would have more faith in capitalism.
So, given all this, I'm not convinced that a "maximum wage" is such a bad idea, as long as you make it pretty high. The short is that you don't want too much power in the hands of someone without any accountability. Otherwise, the whole concept of democracy is defeated.
<P ID="signature">----
"And dreams may come
That are everlasting
Though all just plastic too..." </P>
> societies are already thoroughly corrupted. The system is
> designed to reward dishonesty.
>
> What do you mean?
Basically, I think capitalist systems are alright in the lower part of the income distribution. Although there's a lot of nepotism, hard work and skill can go a long way. In the upper parts, however, we basically have the leaders of corporations (and celebrities, but I'll come back to them in a moment). In order to reach that level, you have to step on a lot of toes or break a lot of rules, because you know that, otherwise, you can't beat those who do. So, the upper levels are largely scheming, dishonest pricks.
It's the same reason that dictators are always harsh and cruel -- that's how you have to be to become a dictator. Corporations have none of the internal checks and balances that a democratic government does, so they will ultimately do whatever it takes to make money. You can say that the same is true of Joe Shmoe convenience store, but the difference is that he doesn't have any power. Any rules he might break are likely to land him in jail.
So what would it be like to have an honest person with a lot of money? Just look at celebrities. They'll either donate huge fractions of their income to charities or just spend it on themselves, neither of which is particularly threatening to the rest of the nation. If all of this nation's wealthy were like that, I would have more faith in capitalism.
So, given all this, I'm not convinced that a "maximum wage" is such a bad idea, as long as you make it pretty high. The short is that you don't want too much power in the hands of someone without any accountability. Otherwise, the whole concept of democracy is defeated.
<P ID="signature">----
"And dreams may come
That are everlasting
Though all just plastic too..." </P>
> I think the upper echelons of capitalist societies are
> already thoroughly corrupted. The system is designed to
> reward dishonesty. On the other hand, if you make this
> "maximum wage" small enough, then you have something that's
> approaching Communism and it would suffer from many of the
> same problems (e.g. lack of incentive). People should keep
> coming up with ideas, though, cause all of the options
> available right now pretty much suck.
What I meant was that when some market gets criminalized, the people who engage in it tend to use other criminal methods, including intimidation and murder, to further their enterprises. During prohibition, hundreds were killed in Chicago alone over the illegal liquor trade. Apply a wage cap to the entire country, and a huge new black market where people can earn illegal income and spend it will arise. The people who run this black market will use "any means necessary" to control it, if the drugs, prostitution, and gambling underworlds are any indicator of how black markets operate.
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> already thoroughly corrupted. The system is designed to
> reward dishonesty. On the other hand, if you make this
> "maximum wage" small enough, then you have something that's
> approaching Communism and it would suffer from many of the
> same problems (e.g. lack of incentive). People should keep
> coming up with ideas, though, cause all of the options
> available right now pretty much suck.
What I meant was that when some market gets criminalized, the people who engage in it tend to use other criminal methods, including intimidation and murder, to further their enterprises. During prohibition, hundreds were killed in Chicago alone over the illegal liquor trade. Apply a wage cap to the entire country, and a huge new black market where people can earn illegal income and spend it will arise. The people who run this black market will use "any means necessary" to control it, if the drugs, prostitution, and gambling underworlds are any indicator of how black markets operate.
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SpaceTiger
New member
> What I meant was that when some market gets criminalized,
> the people who engage in it tend to use other criminal
> methods, including intimidation and murder, to further
> their enterprises.
I know, I agree with you, I'm just saying that the people for whom this maximum wage would apply are already engaging in criminal activity and I'm not convinced it would be any worse...unless the maximum wage was as low as to affect the middle classes, in which case it would be like Communism, a government that suffers from many of the problems you're describing.
<P ID="signature">----
"And dreams may come
That are everlasting
Though all just plastic too..." </P>
> the people who engage in it tend to use other criminal
> methods, including intimidation and murder, to further
> their enterprises.
I know, I agree with you, I'm just saying that the people for whom this maximum wage would apply are already engaging in criminal activity and I'm not convinced it would be any worse...unless the maximum wage was as low as to affect the middle classes, in which case it would be like Communism, a government that suffers from many of the problems you're describing.
<P ID="signature">----
"And dreams may come
That are everlasting
Though all just plastic too..." </P>
Just tax em' on up. Siphon off some of the wealth and redistribute.
Too much dough becomes consolidated at the top because of the wealthy's predisposition toward frugality. Johnny middle-class lives his life paycheck to paycheck, whereas Joey CEO stuffs a cool mil in his bank account every year. There's no trickle down effect; these people will pay rock-acceptable-bottom. At least the government spends its money.
<P ID="signature">The more often you fail, the sweeter the taste of success!</P>
Too much dough becomes consolidated at the top because of the wealthy's predisposition toward frugality. Johnny middle-class lives his life paycheck to paycheck, whereas Joey CEO stuffs a cool mil in his bank account every year. There's no trickle down effect; these people will pay rock-acceptable-bottom. At least the government spends its money.
<P ID="signature">The more often you fail, the sweeter the taste of success!</P>
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
So, given all this, I'm not convinced that a "maximum wage" is such a bad idea, as long as you make it pretty high.
<hr></blockquote>
The validity of a maximum wage law alone is something we could argue for the rest of our lives. If it was legislated, most likely it would be done incorrectly (as many first tries are) and opponents would use this to claim that such a concept can't work, which would then cause many of the neutral to agree with an opinion that isn't necessarily correct.
Personally, I agree that it's a good idea, but I don't think you can stop at just saying it's a good idea. It would have to be tried and tested and, currently it doesn't look like such a thing will happen soon. It would be nice if it wasn't necessary to have either a minimum or maximum wage law, but we all know we're never going to reach a utopian state like that.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
The short is that you don't want too much power in the hands of someone without any accountability. Otherwise, the whole concept of democracy is defeated.
<hr></blockquote>
And again we come up against "who governs the governers". A good point to bring up, and this is another item that will probably mean that a maximum wage law won't be legislated.
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Read and review Life of the Silver Tear.</P>
So, given all this, I'm not convinced that a "maximum wage" is such a bad idea, as long as you make it pretty high.
<hr></blockquote>
The validity of a maximum wage law alone is something we could argue for the rest of our lives. If it was legislated, most likely it would be done incorrectly (as many first tries are) and opponents would use this to claim that such a concept can't work, which would then cause many of the neutral to agree with an opinion that isn't necessarily correct.
Personally, I agree that it's a good idea, but I don't think you can stop at just saying it's a good idea. It would have to be tried and tested and, currently it doesn't look like such a thing will happen soon. It would be nice if it wasn't necessary to have either a minimum or maximum wage law, but we all know we're never going to reach a utopian state like that.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
The short is that you don't want too much power in the hands of someone without any accountability. Otherwise, the whole concept of democracy is defeated.
<hr></blockquote>
And again we come up against "who governs the governers". A good point to bring up, and this is another item that will probably mean that a maximum wage law won't be legislated.
<P ID="signature"><HR>
Read and review Life of the Silver Tear.</P>
Isildur
Active member
> Just tax em' on up. Siphon off some of the wealth and
> redistribute.
>
> Too much dough becomes consolidated at the top because of
> the wealthy's predisposition toward frugality.
Despite generally believing in capatism (like SpaceTiger said, it tends to work at the lower end of the distribution... well, maybe make that the middle-- there are problems at the very lowest part, due to lack of access to good education and training opportunities and lack of connections, but I think there are possible things that would deal with that...), I would actually be for taxing the hell out of the preposterously rich (I find it kind of revolting how some people make so much money that they spend it on idiotic luxuries like personal golf courses, fleets of expensive cars, or a dozen mansions, because they literally don't know what to do with it all)... if it wasn't for the following problem: Rich people would just transfer their companies and assets to countries without such taxes, which would of course welcome them with open arms. Or you could have a situation like JaddussD described.
So while in principle, I might be for making it impossible to be mega-mega-rich, I have yet to see such a scheme that isn't fatally flawed.
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> redistribute.
>
> Too much dough becomes consolidated at the top because of
> the wealthy's predisposition toward frugality.
Despite generally believing in capatism (like SpaceTiger said, it tends to work at the lower end of the distribution... well, maybe make that the middle-- there are problems at the very lowest part, due to lack of access to good education and training opportunities and lack of connections, but I think there are possible things that would deal with that...), I would actually be for taxing the hell out of the preposterously rich (I find it kind of revolting how some people make so much money that they spend it on idiotic luxuries like personal golf courses, fleets of expensive cars, or a dozen mansions, because they literally don't know what to do with it all)... if it wasn't for the following problem: Rich people would just transfer their companies and assets to countries without such taxes, which would of course welcome them with open arms. Or you could have a situation like JaddussD described.
So while in principle, I might be for making it impossible to be mega-mega-rich, I have yet to see such a scheme that isn't fatally flawed.
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> I think the upper echelons of capitalist societies are
> already thoroughly corrupted. The system is designed to
> reward dishonesty.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. That's what the system is designed to do. That's why the working class really can't get out of the cycle of poverty, because the corporate fatcats horde all the wealth. If a maximum wage law was put into place, there'd be exceptions to it. Maybe cut it off when you reach a certain salary level, and leave all the head honchos out of it. Then, it'd just be sticking it to the worker more than the system does already.
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> already thoroughly corrupted. The system is designed to
> reward dishonesty.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. That's what the system is designed to do. That's why the working class really can't get out of the cycle of poverty, because the corporate fatcats horde all the wealth. If a maximum wage law was put into place, there'd be exceptions to it. Maybe cut it off when you reach a certain salary level, and leave all the head honchos out of it. Then, it'd just be sticking it to the worker more than the system does already.
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Lobster Cowboy
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dude, will you stop digging up 2 month old threads
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king killa
Active member
> dude, will you stop digging up 2 month old threads
>
I agree, but in the communism thread he actually made a thought out intelligent post. A suggestion: put that thought into replies of more recent posts, that are still active.
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>
I agree, but in the communism thread he actually made a thought out intelligent post. A suggestion: put that thought into replies of more recent posts, that are still active.
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