more of a question

Packard, ya don't get it.
You wanna redesign the site and fix all the horrible broken links?....then show him a sample of a finished product. I'm about as tired as Swamp is of the whining. If my job weren't keeping me so busy and my eyes weren't giving me so much trouble maybe I could do something.
But I can't.
Such is life.
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> I seem to remember JadussD warning me because I was so
> forward and outspoken. Well, I am outspoken, always have
> been. If there is something clearly wrong with a situation,
> I will be speaking about it, that's for damn sure. If that
> warrants a ban, so be it. *salutes ZD*

What the HELL are you talking about?

I warned you once because you flamed the shit out of someone for basically no provocation but that's about it.
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He's not asking for a sample of a 'finished product'. He's asking for a complete, finished, archive of work. Beyond which, I'm talking about - god forbid - updating the current site. So if you want an example of what that could consist of, look at the NDS emulators page I linked to earlier in the thread. That's something I did of my own provocation, and uploaded when I had (stolen) access to do it.

What sample am I going to show, when it comes to, say, an updated NES Emulators for Windows page that the NDS page doesn't show? A redesign is in order, yes. It's long overdue, in fact... but no one is maintaining the current site, either... and that's just inexcusable.

So tell me, Flash, how do I show what an up-to-date ZD would look like beyond doing the work on my own server, for myself? If I were to go through the list of NES emulators alone, to clean it up, that would be a number of hours of work -- to turn it over to whoever, and have it shot down.

If you're talking about tweaking the NDS page and making it prettier, fine, I can do that - if there's some microm of guarantee that something will come of it. I have shown interest, desire, and ability to make change happen to a dead website, and people complain because I'm "whining." Does that make ANY sense?

"I would do something, but I can't." Well I CAN do something, and I'm being told I'm not allowed to do it. How do I clean up the archives of NES emulators, to continue my example, on the server side of things if I don't have SFTP access available to me? How do I update the news page to say something's being worked on?

I tell you what, all of you who care so much about the site - but can't, or won't, show anything for it, get together on MSN, IRC, whatever, and come up with a plan of action for me. Seriously - instead of having me complain to a brick wall, and instead of sitting there and doing nothing, settle on ONE thing you want me to improve.

Say it's the front news page. Fine, I'll put together something on my server to show what it could look like as per what *I* think is appropriate. And instead of giving me a "No, not good enough" when all is said and done, tell me what to refine, and I'll make those changes until people are happy. Work WITH me and not against me, and maybe ZD won't be a dead site people remember - but an active site people enjoy.
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You run around screaming "zd is dead" and are constantly taking pot shots at the site. You are not giving me a good impression of yourself.

What you, and countless others before you, have failed to grasp is that you only serve to piss me off and make me not like you. For some reason you feel that's the appropriate way to motivate me to trust you and to assist you. It's not.

Over the past 10 years, I've seen all talk. All of it. I had enough of the talk. Show me the site or shut up. The beautiful thing about PHP and MySQL is that it works the same on ANY system...which means you don't require access to mine to do a site. You don't need paths, you don't need files, you don't need anything. These are just more excuses.

Am I asking you to do all this work and then "just hand it over"? Yes. That's how it works. I've seen nothing but awful designs, half-assed spec systems, and so many promises/ideas that it makes me want to puke. Are you really that young and naive? Just do the fucking site instead of bitching about it.

Of course, right now it appears you (and everyone else) are more concerned about winning an argument and whining than getting any work done.
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> Just do the fucking site instead of bitching about it.

If I "just do the fucking site", as you so laughingly suggest, what exactly would be my driving motivation? If I put that much work into doing a new emulation site on my own server with my own code and my own files, why, exactly, would I just hand it over to you and kiss my work goodbye?

Whatever, man. I've put my best foot forward, and I've put my worst forward too. I've gone from begging to demanding, and nothing comes of it. I've been the nice guy, and I've been the asshole.

I guess there's the problem - I've tried everything short of designing a new site from scratch, investing that time into everything... and then handing it over to you for you to either 1) take take credit for it, or 2) slap it aside.

Listen to yourself. "Awful designs"... even now, you'll openly complain about _attempts_ people have made in the past. When have you ever said, say, "Okay, I don't like that color scheme... instead of a bright blue banner, why not try something darker?" You don't. You say "I hate it, throw it out and stop fucking around. Show me a finished product."

I don't know what to do here, Sam. I don't know what to do. You're asking me to design a new ZD from scratch with -nothing- to go off of, beyond the current site and my own desires -- which other people have done in the past, to have you puke over. You don't work with people, where this site is concerned. You descend from upon high, raise your mighty fist, and bitch at the people who would actually attempt to make a future for this site.

I'm not trying to win an argument - I'm trying to get someone, SOMEONE, to admit that yes, ZD as it was is dead and gone. I'm trying to get someone to admit that NO REAL WORK is being done on the site as it is. I'm trying to get someone to put together a list of features or desires for the site. I'm trying to get this broken ass forum replaced.

If I had the money to put together a new emulation archive for myself, I'd do it in a heartbeat - but I don't have that sort of cash. Nor do I really have the desire to start sucha project. I want to fix THIS site, not create a new one. I already said before, I use Emulation64 for my emu updates. Other forum goers here admit all they come to ZD for is the forums anymore... so hell, why not strip ZD down, shove a htaccess redirect so the domain loads up only the forums, and call it a day?

You don't even admit defeat. You cling to the skeleton of a broken site and forbid people from making updates to it, at all. And you expect me to shut up on it? I've SHOWN these people updates to the site, and I had to go AROUND you to do that. People have THANKED me for what LITTLE work I've done... imagine how great it would be if the goddamned SITE worked again! If it were updated, and spitpolished.

And your answer, as it always has been, is "Do the work for me. Do it all, knowing I'll probably find something wrong with it, and instead of working with you to fix it, I'll tell you to shove it up your ass."

In short, you haven't motivated me to trust you, or to assist you. My interest isn't in bettering YOU, Sam. It's in bettering ZD. The site. The community. And my hands are tied, because I have no -realistic- way of doing that.
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This is getting overly complicated, and needlessly cluttered with side-arguments and past grudges.

Let's look at the facts, and the problem that is before us.

Odds are pretty good no one is going to design an entire site just to hand it over to someone else for funsies (I know you seem to think "that's how it works" -- but it's time to fess up -- it obviously hasn't been working that way). And my gut tells me you wouldn't be willing to pay for a site design. So demanding a 'full design or nothing' is essentially ensuring you'll get nothing. If this doesn't appear as forseeable logic -- I think the status of the past few years of ZD serve as proof.

That leaves us with 2 choices:

A) 'Stick to your guns' and demand a full design or nothing. ZD remains idle, outdated and stale.

B) Give Packard access to the site so he can touch it up and update it. While it isn't as nice of a solution as a full site redesign... it's still at least some form of progress. In addition to that -- it in no way damages any hope for a new design -- as a new design could still just as easily come along.

So that's it. Choice A leaves us idle as we are. Choice B aids the site at seemingly no cost. I mean really -- if there's a downside to option B that I'm not seeing. Please let me know. Because I really don't see it. I mean is it hard to give him access to the site or something?


We have someone here who is ready willing and able to put some work into the site and possibly breathe a little bit of life back to it -- but you're shutting it out with "No -- my way or the highway". I mean you're not even giving any reason -- you're just refusing.



You talk about all these people complaining and whining -- and I have to say that over the years I've found a lot of that whining to be coming from you. "People always blame me for things I don't do", "People are pissed that the site is outdated but it's not my fault/problem", "Nobody's willing to do the work needed to fix the site". I mean really... if the site is as big of a burden on you as you make it out to be... you'd think you'd want to hand it over to someone willing to dig in and fix things up. You've made it abundantly clear you have no intention of doing so yourself -- by reasons either relating to lack of interest or lack of time. Both understandable and acceptable reasons.

But you've got the power, and you're just sitting on it. Someone else has come along willing to take advantage of it -- willing to put it to use. If you're not going to use it -- hand it over to someone that will. Packard will use it. I know he's not your favorite person in the world. Hell you might even hate his guts. But it'd be good for ZD.

Perhaps it's finally time to pass the torch?
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I'm posting part of an AIM conversation I had with someone. I've edited it to remove who it was I was talking to, and I'm changing the format to make more sense.

Friend: "The thing you should ask yourself, and that I'm asking myself now, is: 'Does the world need a better Zophar's Domain?' Would your efforts be better spent on a site run by someone who cares?"

Me: "That, my friend, is exactly what I wonder. ZD was the first community I really ever joined and I hate to see it languish. But maybe it's the only thing that can happen. Maybe it really is dead. And my fighting, and arguing, would lead to little more than a band-aid to patch a cancer."

I'm not arguing in this post. I have a lot to think about on this... obviously, I'm not going to get the access I want until I have some sort of 'peace offering' - a download system, or something. And I'm scared to invest that time into it when its use isn't guaranteed when all is said and done.

And worst yet, to hand it over to someone that gives no sign of actually caring about the outcome.

I seem to have your support, Disch, and I thank you for that. I know I have Lenophis' support, and Ian's. I even have an 'inside man' who is willing to work with me, as far as getting test items up on the ZD server.

I have a lot to churn over and consider.
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> I seem to have your support, Disch, and I thank you for
> that. I know I have Lenophis' support, and Ian's. I even
> have an 'inside man' who is willing to work with me, as far
> as getting test items up on the ZD server.

I'd imagine you'd have the support of quite a few more people than you'd think.

Of course, I could very well be wrong.
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do you buy stuff from http://www.play-asia.com/SOap-23-83-1wp6.htmlplay-asia</a>? if you do, help a bro out and buy from that link :) </P>
 
> Of course, right now it appears you (and everyone else) are
> more concerned about winning an argument and whining than
> getting any work done.
>

No one is going to waste their time when it's just going to be rejected. I've stood by and watched the deevolution of this site for years. Sorry, it's not that everyone else in the world sucks and can't get any work done, it's that no one wants to stick their necks out and have it rejected when they know damn well nothing is ever going to be good enough.
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> But once again...you mouth off and the 5 people who come to
> zmd run up behind you with pitch forks and torches blaming
> me for something I wasn't a part of.

<img src=http://www.geocities.com/ikeeyebee/mob3.jpg>
<P ID="signature">I am the law. ~ Warden of Marshwood Hill.
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> For once, that was actually pretty funny.
>

Thank you!<img src=smilies/thumb.gif>
<P ID="signature">I am the law. ~ Warden of Marshwood Hill.
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> I seem to have your support, Disch, and I thank you for
> that. I know I have Lenophis' support, and Ian's. I even
> have an 'inside man' who is willing to work with me, as far
> as getting test items up on the ZD server.

You also have my support... even though I'm new to the board, I have really enjoyed the news pages and have used the emulation parts of the site a countless number of times in years passed. Now the emulation site has been full of broken links, or now link to something that doesn't exist anymore, for a long time... I support anybody that is willing to go in and fix things up. It's a HUGE site and has a lot of work on it, to ask anybody to create a finished product is asking a lot... but I don't see any problems with somebody that wants to do some tweaking to the site.
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> Haha, I have no idea why that's funny, but it's giving me a nice laught at the moment. <img src=smilies/laff.gif>

Me too <img src=smilies/laff.gif>


> w00t! I'm the guy with the axe!

w00t! I'm the guy that gets his name at the bottom! ...wait, is that a good thing? <img src=smilies/retard.gif>
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> I seem to have your support, Disch, and I thank you for
> that. I know I have Lenophis' support, and Ian's. I even
> have an 'inside man' who is willing to work with me, as far
> as getting test items up on the ZD server.

You've got my support. I haven't hung around this site (having been a moderator here for years and briefly a staffer) because I hate it...I'd love to see it get better.

I wouldn't even mind helping out if I knew EVERYONE who was going to be helping out with the site would work equally instead of having it fall to one or two people out of everyone.
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ZDD's Weblog - Now it has content! Really!</a></P>
 
> I'm not arguing in this post. I have a lot to think about
> on this... obviously, I'm not going to get the access I want
> until I have some sort of 'peace offering' - a download
> system, or something. And I'm scared to invest that time
> into it when its use isn't guaranteed when all is said and
> done.

I rip people's code apart because it's sloppy, insecure and won't be able to handle the traffic the site gets. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to explain it line by line as to why.

If you need example programming, go look at fudforum.org...that guy has his coding together. In fact, I would not be opposed to integrating fudforum to replace w3.
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