An Open Question to Republicans (or anyone really)

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IceWolf20

New member
This came across my mind last night, and I thought it would be interesting to get the perspectives of the "right-wing" on this board (read: Danoz)....not to pick on anyone, but I"m just curious. Please, if you could, elaborate as to why Al Qaeda attacked America, and wishes to continue to do so? I'd like to think I know why, but it differs from what we as a nation are told by our President. I'd just like to see what everone thinks, and how much in line everone is with what we've been told.

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imo, there are really two reasons.

one is what we represent, we represent what they most fear, and that is absolute freedom... of course, we all know that doesn't actually exist here, but they certainly think it does.

the other reason would require you to understand the religious background of the situation. this is a disagreement between Arabs and Jews that we foolishly got in the middle of. their disagreement will continue no matter what we do, their disagreement has held for quite a few millenia, and we are trying to stop it. not going to happen, and they dispise us for our attempt

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We supported Israel. Nothing to do with anything else.

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I think they have a hatred of both our involvment in Israel and desire to spread and maintain freedom and Democracy. I think it's amplified by the fact that they maintain an extremist interpretation of their religion, where they're brainwashed to believe thier terrorist actions will be rewarded by god with virgins. Under all this apparent reasoning, they have a solid foundation of hatred and an evil nature to murder, not only Americans, but their own people to accomplish an unending goal of the world they desire. The ends are always justified by the means, and in this case, both the ends and the means are purely evil.

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"Yes, we are reactionaries, and you are enlightened intellectuals. You who want freedom for everything - the freedom that will corrupt our country, corrupt our youth, and freedom that will pave the way for the oppressor. Freedom that will drag our country to the bottom."
- Ayatollah Khomeini, in his first sermon after the Iranian Revolution of 1979

There's a whole array of reasoning behind it. As SG rightly says, continuing support of Israel almost certainly played a large part of it. Another large part is the encroachment of Western culture and liberal philosophy into Muslim countries. This individualistic nature of such culture is anathema to Muslim philosophy.

An Egyptian by the name of Sayyid Qutb saw this liberal culture for himself, when visiting the US in the late 40s in his capacity as a school inspector. Being horrified by what he regarded as the grossly liberal nature of US culture at the time, he was further appalled when he returned home to see the beginning of US cultural influence in his own homeland. He came to the conclusion that the ideal model of society would be an amalgam of Western science, technology and institutions bound together under a Muslim government with a dedication to the moral wellbeing of its citizens. He became quite outspoken on the matter, to the extent that he was arrested and tortured for his views and acts. This hardened his resolve, to the extent that he regarded the corruption of Muslim values in favour of Western influence as now being institutionalised. This being the case, he said that those involved in such corruption had made themselves legitimate targets. For this, President Nasser had him tried and executed for treason in 1966.

Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri believed in Qutb's grand vision of an Islamic state, and continued his legacy. Being a founding member of Islamic Jihad, he decided after the Iranian revolution, that if they managed to assasinate the president at the time, President Sadat, the people would be shocked into seeing the extent of the institutions' corruption, and rise up against the government. After succeeding in assasinating Sadat, he was outraged to find that the people did not rise up in the way he expected. Faced with this, he extended the original philosophy of Qutb. He became convinced that the people themselves had fallen under the spell of Western ideology, that they were irredeemably corrupt, and that they too were dead as Muslims, and could therefore legitimately be killed, in order to shock everyone else in the way originally intended. Because his objective was sublime, the means were justified.

It was only after years of following this philosophy, to no effect, that he began to see the unattainability of his objective through these means. By this time he was associated with Osama Bin Laden, whose primary value to his cause was his wealth. However, in May 1998 both he and Bin Laden called a press conference, announcing a new jihad. Muslim people had become so corrupted by Western liberal ideology, they said, that the strategy of targeting Muslim civilians could never work. The only solution was to tackle the source itself: the US, its allies and its interests. It was a desperate move borne out of frustration at the failure of their own revolutionary efforts. After this, bombs were detonated outside of the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, and international terrorism as we know it today was born.

<P ID="signature"></P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by thegodofhellfire on 11/17/04 03:41 PM.</FONT></P>
 
> The ends are always justified by the means, and in
> this case, both the ends and the means are purely evil.

I think it's a bit silly to call the ends "purely evil", because the end product, in their eyes, is an Islamic culture with a strong moral foundation, that operates for the good of all men. The problem is that they regard the objective as so good that it can be effectively justified by practically any means.

<P ID="signature"></P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by thegodofhellfire on 11/17/04 03:45 PM.</FONT></P>
 
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I think it's a bit silly to call the ends "purely evil", because the end product, in their eyes, is an Islamic culture with a strong moral foundation, that operates for the good of all men. The problem is that they regard the objective as so good that it can be effectively justified by practically any means.

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It requires the destruction and murder of all who do not fulfill their preset requirement. If you're going to argue this, then you have to also argue that Hitler's goal of a purely Arian race is the same-- and I don't feel this way at all. Their perception of goodness does not change the fact that it's an evil one.

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> Their perception of goodness does not change the fact
> that it's an evil one.

They perceive you in exactly the same way. This is why people are dying. This is why people have always been dying. The only thing that stops it is the complete obliteration of one side or the other and the establishment of moral uniformity.

Perhaps you can understand why the rest of us are so tired of suffering the consequences of these endless crusades against "evil," both by you and your Islamic counterparts. <img src=smilies/banghead.gif>

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> It requires the destruction and murder of all who do not
> fulfill their preset requirement. If you're going to argue
> this, then you have to also argue that Hitler's goal of a
> purely Arian race is the same-- and I don't feel this way at
> all. Their perception of goodness does not change the fact
> that it's an evil one.

No, because you'd have people believe that they've sat in a dark lair and concocted some dastardly plan to mould the world in their evil vision. Now, while it might be much easier to fall back on this comic-book villain picture, it's just plainly inaccurate. These are twisted guys, but it takes a special breed of ignorance to say that a person or group's whole purpose is just to be evil. That pursuit would be more pointless than anything else.

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I think they have a hatred of both our involvment in Israel
and desire to spread and maintain freedom and Democracy. I
think it's amplified by the fact that they maintain an
extremist interpretation of their religion, where they're
brainwashed to believe thier terrorist actions will be
rewarded by god with virgins.

<hr></blockquote>

Not for nothing, but what right do we have running around the world, engaging in armed conflict with the sole purpose of basically whipping a little democracy on people? What makes us that much better?
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Under all this apparent reasoning, they have a solid foundation of hatred and an evil nature to murder, not only Americans, but their own people to accomplish an unending goal of the world they desire. The ends are always justified by the means, and in this case, both the ends and the means are purely evil.

<hr></blockquote>

Like to them, we look any less evil. You can spew all you want about them training terrorists or being a haven for them. Look at how we judge our own criminals. That's how we should judge international criminals. We're way better than that, Danoz, and I'm surprised at this comment.
We are not the world's highest authority (anyone mentions God gets slapped). We all have different governments and deal with different things different ways.
Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
Get Bin Laden and then maybe we can talk. That's who should have been done by now.
/end rant.


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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

They perceive you in exactly the same way. This is why people are dying.

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They attacked us, Spacetiger. People are dying because of them. I'm sure they see innocent Americans as evil and them as good, I don't deny this-- but this is the very reason they are as twisted and misguided as they are!
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This is why people have always been dying. The only thing that stops it is the complete obliteration of one side or the other and the establishment of moral uniformity. Perhaps you can understand why the rest of us are so tired of suffering the consequences of these endless crusades against "evil," both by you and your Islamic counterparts.

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Relating me to the terrorists now? My Islamic counterparts? Let me be very blunt with you. Your liberal ideology centered around appeasement and inaction is what ultimately would be the end for America. The terrorists and their dishonorable counterparts hide behind peaceful dialogue, while they plot and scheme our very deaths. These terrorists are not idiots, in fact, they're brilliant. Brilliant enough to be patient, to give speeches that tug on the emotions of people like you. You're the ones that have taken good and evil and reduced it to the "comicbook" definition you so often direct towards us. There's nothing simple or dimwitted about the constructs and desires of evil men. While I know you are honorable, and of good intentions, it's your naive and falsely trusting optimistic ideology that gives them the change to deceive you. You can hide behind the rhetoric of "moral conformity" because you've already redefined morality itself to be completely relative and meaningless. Believe me, they've long committed themselves to the doctrine of hatred. Stop asking why the Republicans won, and start questioning why the Democrats lost-- the American people can't afford weakness. Yet you insist the President only won because people are uneducated and careless. So let me be blunt again; we won, and we're going to kill them before they kill us. Someday, unless you're continuously blinded, you'll be thankful somebody stood up and cast a vote to protect you and your family.


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> we won, and we're going to kill them before
> they kill us.

You don't even know who "them" is. <img src=smilies/headshake.gif>

That is one of the scariest things I've ever read. If you were just going to kill each other, I'd be more than happy about the situation, but unfortunately, my friends and family will have to suffer as well. If there were such a thing as a war in which I could once and for all rid the world of bloodthirsty religious extremists, then I'd be lining up to enlist.

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Though all just plastic too..." </p>
 
> You don't even know who "them" is.

That was a good, cowardly way to back out without responding to any other part of that post-- and I knew you would do it.


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> That was a good, cowardly way to back out without responding
> to any other part of that post--

What, the stuff about how much liberals suck and how great you are? Not sure what I could say... <img src=smilies/upeyes.gif>

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"And dreams may come
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Though all just plastic too..." </P>
 
> That was a good, cowardly way to back out without responding
> to any other part of that post-- and I knew you would do it.
>

So, how about those lies in Al Franken's book?

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

They attacked us, Spacetiger. People are dying because of them. I'm sure they see innocent Americans as evil and them as good, I don't deny this-- but this is the very reason they are as twisted and misguided as they are!

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"There are multiple flags on the play." One thing you need to learn, is when to speak, what to speak. You are accusing them of being the very same thing you are. You aren't "right" just because you see them as "evil." They aren't "right" just because they see us as "evil." Fact is, they are killing innocent civillians and are whining about us. Nothing more. I'll say this, to everyone, GROW UP. But as long as they have religion backing their cause, it'll never happen. A group of idiots acting childish because not everything goes their way. Then again, the same thing could be said for people in this country. GET OVER IT.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

the American people can't afford weakness.

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Again, this is you saying Bush is the only one capable of leading this country. I would call this exact moment a time of questioning. 5 cabinet members resign, or was it 4? Two more are expected to soon. I smell a rat...

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

we won, and we're going to kill them before they kill us.

<hr></blockquote>
"And they'll know us as Christian's by our love."

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Someday, unless you're continuously blinded, you'll be thankful somebody stood up and cast a vote to protect you and your family.

<hr></blockquote>
I have a nice cheap shot I could use, but I'll refrain.

Danoz, in the inevitable response that I know I'll get, I'll say this. Actually, I'll direct this at everyone too.

DO NOT LET YOUR FUCKING EMOTIONS CLOUD YOUR JUDGEMENT! <img src=smilies/angryfire.gif>

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Defending one's interests has nothing to do with moral relativism. The idea, in fact, is so completely simple, demonstrable, and apparent that even a child could grasp it. Allow me to elaborate:

There's a devout Hindu. He believes consuming the flesh of a cow is a grave sin, to the extent that he must undergo a cleansing ritual should he trespass.

Then, there's an average American, who consumes, on average, 70 lbs of beef per year without thinking about it.

Wow, is the American foolishly denying his absolute moral instincts? Or is the Hindu conjuring up an arbitrary ruleset and adhering to it?

Or is it more reasonable to believe, as volumes of psychological research tell us, that human behavior and morality are nearly entirely conditioned through environment and upbringing?

So far, you haven't given one iota of evidence for your absolutist argument and I tire of your dogmatic prattling. So what if it gives the terrorists an excuse? We can still blow em up just fine and not be in numb-brained denial of objective reality.

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