emufanatics.com | What's with these guys?

R

RedXIII

New member
Who the hell are these emufanatics.com guy's and what the hell is their problem with the Cassini project?

Looks like they got a problem with it. Not only that but it looks like they got a problem with Zophar for making the emulator available to the public.

Here's a couple quotes from their fourms.

"The misinformation going over Zophar's domain is getting annoying ...
There's no way to contact the authors, and there's only one side of the story (cassini's) that is showed ..." - Runik

"zophar hasnt done its research, i very doubt they have looked here, they are going off emails users have sent, probably containing quotes from cassini team members, or they have visited the official site, seen the risky legal declaration and decided theres nothing wrong with it. " - refraction

"Amazing how they ignore everything been said but Zophar comes to the rescue, they like what they hear because most likely the guy doesn't know the full story and is just supporting them without all the facts." - vampireuk

These posts and more info can be found here:

http://www.emufanatics.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1294&st=75

Seem's like some site called 1emulation.com is in on all this Cassini bashing too.

http://www.1emulation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8210

WTF? Are these dudes assholes or what?



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I don't quite get it. What's the whole "controversy" over this emulator? If they're worried about legality issues, then they should have worried about that with other emulator releases, too.

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First thing, as far as the comments about Zophars, those were made from people from our community and do not represent EmuFanatics the site. People are entitled to their opinions just as you are entitled to yours in your post about this.

As for the Cassini debate .. we have made our final statements here. You can believe what you want .. this is what we believe in ..

http://www.emufanatics.com/news.php?func=view&id=452

As for 1Emulation these were the people that hosted the Cassini forums and they are the site that Zophars is currently linking to for the legal arguement.

The only problem is 1Emulation.com has dropped support for Cassini. So their forums were removed and they are no longer supported there, and the link Zophars is using is no longer valid.

To be honest Zophars is the only site that I have seen that openly supports it. I have no problem with that, because it is their site to run and it is their decision to make.

Also I sent a PM regarding the Zophars download description for Cassini. It currently is a bit misleading by listing it as a new open source saturn emulator when in fact it is only a GiriGiri hack. There is no mention in the description about it being GiriGiri. Other then that, I see nothing wrong if Zophars wants to support it.

<P ID="signature">- Keith | EmuFanatics.com</P>
 
Everyone has a right to their opinion.
Your position is very well stated and understandable. We're a news site, and try to remain nuetral as one.
But it doesn't help when the only emails we get representing the other side are two lines long and written in lame 1337 speek.
We welcome opinions and viewpoints from the both sides.
~Flash~
P.S. Anyone who really does with to express their opinion please do so. We don't print letters from "anonomouys" people. If you want to make a point, be good enough to use your name. Thank you.

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Diary of a Vigilante III...The Homecoming..</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Fla Flash on 07/17/04 09:37 AM.</FONT></P>
 
I'm Runik, the author of Saturnin, and I would like to explain some things.
The following is an email I sent to Narvick, and it's something I wanted to post here first (it has gone full circle ;) )

Hi !

I'm Runik, author of Saturnin (a saturn emu as you may have guessed :p).
As the confirmation mail to access to your boards is a bit long to show up, I would like to write my concerns about Cassini.
I read the thread about emufanatics on your forums, and there are a few things I would like to clarify.

First, I have nothing against The Scribe, he stated his position about the legality of the emulator, and i've nothing to say about that.
To be honest, I don't care much about the legality of Cassini, as it's none of my concern. This is a matter between them and Sega.
But that's not the point. The thing that really bothers me is that Cassini is just a hack of an existing (and now defunct) commercial emulator
named Girigiri.
The Cassini team is trying by all means to do people believe that Cassini is a new open source sega saturn emulator, which is totally false.
They base their claim on the fact that the coder (Snail) changed 40% of the original code of the emulator, added 3 major feature to it, and provided
the sourcecode within the package.
I'll try to explain each point on a developper point of vue, as I know quite a few things about the saturn hardware :

1. the 40% source change and the 3 major improvements :
When you read the Cassini website, it's stated that there's almost no documentation available about the saturn. Isn't it a bit paradoxal to change
40% of an emulator without any documentation ? We (other coders interested in this issue and me) asked Snail to provide a detailed list of what he
changed on the emulator. We posted our requests on different boards (including the official one) and we never got any answer.
People who tested Cassini after testing Girigiri didn't found any big differences between the two.
So I sincerely doubt about the amount of work spent on Cassini, and to me it's just a hack of another emulator, which was already really good ...

2. Sourcecode bundled with the emulator :
The sourcecode files are just big assembly files generated by an automatic binary disassembler like IDA, which is far of being something
usable by any developper. Some skilled assembly developpers (not me :p) tried to compile the files anyway with no success, and the questions
regarding this matter were still never answered. I personnaly highly doubt that any improvement besides the frontend and some minor fixes
can be done using this material ...

The original author of Girigiri (Megadeath) and Sega did a tremendous job with this emulator, to me it's an example to follow, and I really don't like
to see people claiming hard work made by others their own ... It's a question of morality and respect.
Anyway I strongly encourage you to read the whole thread at emufanatics, as there are some issues with the Cassini team which I don't talk about
here (like the game.dat file problem). The thread is located here :

http://www.emufanatics.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1294

Thanks for reading me :)
Best regards,
Runik


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> To be honest, I don't care much about the legality of
> Cassini, as it's none of my concern. This is a matter
> between them and Sega.
> But that's not the point.

That is most definately the point because the fourms on both emufanatics and 1emulation are filled with pages whining about copyright laws.

I mean really folks, why go on and on about it? Besides couldn't you use that time to make your own emulator run as well as GiriGiri/Cassini?

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> That is most definately the point because the fourms on both
> emufanatics and 1emulation are filled with pages whining
> about copyright laws.

No, that's not the point. Some people slided the debate on the legality of Cassini, and they used it, but that wasn't me and as I already stated, I don't care about it.

> I mean really folks, why go on and on about it? Besides
> couldn't you use that time to make your own emulator run as
> well as GiriGiri/Cassini?

Making my emu as good and even better than Girigiri is one of my goals. But Cassini must be left out of it.
Did you read what I wrote ? Cassini is just a HACK of an existing emu, and it should be stated as it, not as a whole new project.
And isn't it strange that none of the emulator coders took position in favor of Cassini ? Maybe because they know what's going on ...
I know a lot of emu coders that are disgusted about the way that the Cassini team worked so far ...

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Thank you.
I've been getting dumb emails not giving me a clue, and you post the other side perfectly.
When the Scribe sent that letter, it was all aimed at the legality of emulators, not the settlement of the dispute between Sega and the Cassini project.
And if this is indeed an illegal ripoff of another emulator, they need, as far as I'm concerned, to be shot.
Stealing work amongst emulator creators and romhackers and translators is low. Sorry, but if you can't do it on your own, get the hell out.
I'm hoping this isn't the case. I am still looking into it.

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> That is most definately the point because the fourms on both
> emufanatics and 1emulation are filled with pages whining about copyright laws.
> I mean really folks, why go on and on about it? Besides couldn't you use that time to make your own emulator run as well as GiriGiri/Cassini?

First let me address the last comment .. As for making it as good as Cassini with our so called "wasted" time .. anyone familiar with a hex editor could make it as good as Cassini. As for making it as good as GiriGiri .. well why couldn't the Cassini team to do it from scratch? Why can't any Saturn emulator out there do it from scratch? Because GiriGiri is a damn good emulator and that has never been in question. The original authors and Sega did a wonderful job with GiriGiri and it is a shame it is being hacked the way it is without any permission what so ever. :/

-------------------------------

as for the lega statements ..

That was just one aspect of how the debate was started, and still is only one reason why it is not supported. There is many things wrong with the project and that was just one path that was used to point out the wrongs in the project.

If you would have read our Final Statements that "do" represent EmuFanatics then you would know exactly how we feel about this project as a hacked emulator and what it means to the emulation scene. I am also in agreement with Runik that it is between Sega and Cassini when it comes to the legality of this project .. but the first thing we had to do was to convince the Cassini team to take those steps in contacting Sega the right way and to keep that pressure on to do so. As you might have seen before they were just using an e-mail from Sega Tech Support as a legal arguement and we felt that was not justified. As I said it was just one part of a larger problem.

I should also point out this dabate was started on the "12th" of July when there was little known about it. It was a process of learning more about what the poject was and what is wasn't. It is now the "18th" and pretty much everything that needed to be said has been said on EmuFanatics .. the debate has pretty much dead there until there is more to debate about.

Just incase you didn't read our official statements that "do" represent EmuFanatics .. here they are again.

Hey everyone, just wanted to clear the air and make an official statement about Cassini, our goal with the debate, and our final stand regarding this project.

As we have stated many times now our goal is not to shut down Cassini, we are not out to protect Sega, and this is not a personal grudge against this emulator or team.

Our main goal is about about protecting the emulation scene, the developers, and our fellow sites from these types of projects.

Past projects have been viewed the same way. Originally GiriGiri hack was not covered by emulation sites because of legal reasons. Emurayden is not covered which is a CVGS hack. Same goes for other hacks that have come along such as ePSXiPC which was nothing more then a hacked ePSXe, and the Veritas SPU plugin which was a hack of the PSX SPU Plugin Eternal SPU. I am sure there is many more and all of these are not supported by the emulation community.

In the end it all comes down the integrity of the Emulation Scene and how sites want to be perceived. EmuFanatics and myself are connected with many emulation developers who I consider good friends who have supported our site and I feel supporting a hacked project is a slap in their face.

This is not about the use of Cassini, or any other type of emulator or material like it. We are not out to tell people what is right and what is wrong when it comes to the use of illegal material such as roms or warez. This is something the users need to decide.

The stories are getting very mixed up about our goals and agenda, which is causing more trouble and confusion then their needs to be.

Our Only goal is to either make this project legit, or remove it from the emulation scene (as in coverage and support). We are not trying to get it shut down in anyway. I am sure this project and any other GiriGiri hack that comes along will always remain in one form or another.

So please get the stories straight on what this is about. Too many people are mixing this stuff up and is causing more trouble then there needs to be. To be honest this is more for Emulation site staff then for its users. The staff of sites are the ones who control the content that is hosted on their sites, and this is where we need to control this type of content and stop it from becoming the norm.

Show some respect for what emulation stands for and for the developers and their projects that help keep this scene alive.

This is also my final say in the matter until it can be resolved. I believe we got our point across.


<P ID="signature">- Keith | EmuFanatics.com</P>
 
...and now I'm stepping in

> Just incase you didn't read our official statements that
> "do" represent EmuFanatics .. here they are again.

Official statements? Oooh boy.

I've been in this "scene" for quite some time and have seen (and been a part of) bigger "scandals". In the end, this is what matters: NOTHING.

It's EMULATION. It's for FUN. Official statements?? What's up with that?

Dude...I don't know if there's some anti-zd trend happening or something....I don't even know what a Cassini is...but when it comes down to it, the emulation sites need to COOPERATE like they did back in 1997 or else emulation will continue on this horrible downward spiral. It isn't emufanatics official statements versus zd official statements. It's about sharing info and getting along so the people who just want to play games don't get confused.

It's very easy to see why I'm not actively participating in things anymore....this is a prime example of how things have become. Great programming feat, yes. Sites arguing back and forth on the front page, no. <img src=smilies/headshake.gif>

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I have made it very clear on the front page that Zophar's Domain neither supports nor condemns it. We try to stay out of politics (although that fails sometimes, as in this case) :p

As far as EmuFanatics.com...it's a great site and Keith is a friend of ours and supports us, and we support him. The users on EF don't seem to like ZD very much though, but to be honest, one has to remember that there's a lot of people who are against us.

But I am SICK and TIRED of people saying we support it. Feel free to quote me :p

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I posted your letter on the front page. Since your statements are "against" Cassini moreso than the other posts, hopefully people will realize the stance of neutrality we take. Thank you very much for your input...the only things I know about the controversy are from people who tell me and point me to the right areas where discussion is going on. I have other more important things to do than study all sides of an issue that we have nothing to do with ;P

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Re: ...and now I'm stepping in

The only other emu websites that we have good relationships with are EmuFanatics and Emulation9. We can count Eidolons-Inn as well, but it's not really an emu site. But I'm with you Swamp...all emu sites need to help, not hurt each other. It sounds sappy and obvious, but I'll be damned if it rarely happens.

<P ID="signature">:D!</P>
 
Re: ...and now I'm stepping in

Heh, you have the whole thing completely wrong. My post on EF has nothing to do with ZD or any one site. It is just a summary of what we have been saying all along and how we feel. If other sites feel the same way then that is fine and if not then that is fine too. We are not telling others how to deal with this debate .. we didn't even bring it here to ZD.

As for "official" that is just official as in from "me" .. repesenting my own site. I used the word to seperate it from any other comments that have been made on our forums or by people that are a part of my community.

My comments have nothing to do with ZD, have never had anything to do with ZD, and like I said we didn't bring this here or even mention it here.

Also you would be hard pressed to find a kinder site then EF that "does" cooperate with all sites. We hold no grudges and we get a long with everyone. Maybe you haven't noticed us, maybe you don't pay attention to the scene anymore. I really don't know, but I can assure you we are not anti ZD or whatever you guys call it here.

We are all about having fun, but at the same time we will stick up for what we think is right. We kept our comments to our own community and we can not stop others from bringing it to other places .. when someone says we are "assholes" I feel that we should atleast try and tell our side of it in a civil manner and I believe I have done that.

It is the missinformation and the assumptions that cause people to think there is some sort of anti ZD thing going on. When in fact there is not. People are entitled to their opinions and if they are not fans of ZD then that is their choice. I am not going to censor them out and if you wish to correct their thoughts then feel free to tell them.

<P ID="signature">- Keith | EmuFanatics.com</P>
 
Re: ...and now I'm stepping in

Well said. Again, there's nothing you can do about your website's users. And you're doing the right thing by not censoring them.


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Re: ...and now I'm stepping in

> The only other emu websites that we have good relationships
> with are EmuFanatics and Emulation9. We can count
> Eidolons-Inn as well, but it's not really an emu site. But
> I'm with you Swamp...all emu sites need to help, not hurt
> each other. It sounds sappy and obvious, but I'll be damned
> if it rarely happens.

Well there's just so many factors against it. I won't even site the amount of websites I've encountered that apparently exist only to be anti this site, or anti that site, or take quotes from emu site administrators and take them totally wrong, hack people's sites to get themselves off, etc etc...

It's like they want the emulation community to die or something.


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Re: ...and now I'm stepping in

> when someone says we are "assholes" I
> feel that we should atleast try and tell our side of it in a
> civil manner and I believe I have done that.

"WTF? Are these dudes assholes or what?"

Looks like a question to me, not a direct comment.


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