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Old 07-20-2007, 08:38 PM   #1
Danoz
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Default ORDERD MY NEW LAPTOP!!! :)

Inspiron 1521, AMD Turion 64 X2 TL-60 (2.0GHz/1MB)
2GB, DDR2, 667MHz 2 Dimm
15.4 inch Wide Screen WXGA LCD
ATI RADEON Xpress1270 HyperMemory
160G 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Edition
8X DVD+/-RW Dual Layer Drive
Integrated Sound Blaster Audigy
Dell Wireless 1505 Wireless-N Mini Card
Integrated 2.0M Pixel Webcam
85 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery, for Inspiron 1521
85 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Additional Battery, for Inspiron1521
Dell Wireless 355 Bluetooth Mod
Dell Bluetooth Travel mouse
Color: Spring Green

$1,373.24
That end prices comes with 3 year extended warranty w/ accidental damage and 3 year subscription to McAfee.

Keep in mind I don't do any heavy gaming (besides classic emu, which isn't heavy!) and I basically needed something sturdy that would last me 4+ years while I'll be very mobile, interning in D.C. next year.

Cheers!
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Old 07-21-2007, 12:02 AM   #2
CEpeep
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Default Re: ORDERD MY NEW LAPTOP!!! :)

Fail. Should have gotten a Mac.
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Old 07-21-2007, 03:29 AM   #3
icenine0
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Default Re: ORDERD MY NEW LAPTOP!!! :)

I don't like Mac's http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/02...eric_pc_patch/ proprietary hardware</A>, I don't like Mac's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EbCy...elated&search= "cool greasy boy" image</A>, I don't like Mac's http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/index.php?p=15575% markup</A>, I don't like Mac's http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=8pretty pretty princess operating system</A>. I don't like Mac.

> Fail. Should have gotten a Mac.
>

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Old 07-21-2007, 04:09 AM   #4
CEpeep
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Default Re: ORDERD MY NEW LAPTOP!!! :)

> I don't like Mac's proprietary hardware,

As someone who ran the OS on generic PC hardware (I made the front page at Neowin), I believe there's a method to Apple's madness. Their control over the hardware is what keep them from having to write, maintain and support a retarded number of drivers/devices. It's a major player in why the OS is so stable.

> I don't like Mac's "cool greasy boy" image,

I'm not a fan of that advertising campaign either, but that doesn't make me not want to buy Apple's products. For reference, I know a fair number of people who are full- or part-time Mac users, and none of them look or act like that.

> I don't like Mac's 75% markup

Article is old, and not a good comparison. My Macbook Pro cost $1400 a year ago, and it's the same one in that article, except with an 80GB HDD. Last August, nothing touched my machine's specs at the pricepoint, not to mention that the MBP is/was lighter than anything else in its price/performance range. I take it to class with me every day, so I wanted something light. That price comparison didn't show battery life, weight and additional features.

tl;dr: there's more to a computer's value than simply which parts go into building it. "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." ~ Tom Atlee

> don't like Mac's pretty pretty princess operating system.

If BSD is a "pretty pretty princess," I'd hate to see what an ugly one looks like. If you're talking about the GUI, that video looked like mainly a demo of Expose (the GUI's best feature, bar none) and Quartz. Point me to specific times so I can see what you're referring to.

In addition, with the existence of Wine and VMWare, I can do 90% of what Windows systems can (I was just playing HL2 earlier this afternoon at Windows-native speeds) and I do it better. The remaining 10% can be picked up with a simple reboot to Windows. I can already compile most Linux software natively.

I never would have suggested/considered/recommended a Mac to anyone before Apple's switch to Intel. But it changed everything. Better pricing, a faster experience, and far more software options. There's a reason Apple's market share has rapidly increased since the switch.
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Old 07-21-2007, 05:30 AM   #5
icenine0
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Default Re: ORDERD MY NEW LAPTOP!!! :)

> As someone who ran the OS on generic PC hardware (I made the
> front page at Neowin), I believe there's a method to Apple's
> madness. Their control over the hardware is what keep them
> from having to write, maintain and support a retarded number
> of drivers/devices.

It also conveniently prevents third-party manufacturers from horning in on their vertical market integration.

An open platform has been a very, very good thing for PC consumers. The chip wars between AMD and Intel (and ATI / nVidia) even recently yielded the Core2 Duo and rock-bottom AMD prices. Compare this to Apple's sticking with its stagnant and overpriced PowerPC line until the open-hardware market left it in the dust.

They've adopted Intel now -- another exclusive (albeit more open) chip provider, but I don't see their behavior as changing. Between their http://www.macobserver.com/article/2006/03/16.6.shtmlclosure of AAC</A>, http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/fast-and-...pps-267899.phphoarding of the iPhone SDK</A>, and aforementioned hardware isolation, they appear to be the same old Apple: a company that wants to control everything and only concedes ground due to consumer pressure -- not so different from Sony with their AC3 and UMD.

Of course, none of this is a problem while the hardware's competitive and I'm getting a good deal, but I'm not looking forward to visiting the Mac store in 6 months (instead of NewEgg or Google Product Search,) looking for a software or hardware upgrade, and being forced to pay whatever's deemed reasonable for the glitzy Santa Monica crowd Apple caters to with its $599 portable phone.

In short, Apple's philosophy seems to be "we want to offer a complete package and charge more for it, but trust us -- we make pretty, usable products." I don't trust Apple. I trust myself and an open platform. I'd sooner give less of my cash to companies who mark their boundaries and compete in a free market rather than those who take an "integrate and dominate" approach. (I'm referring explicitly to hardware here, as Microsoft is no better when it comes to software.)

> Article is old, and not a good comparison. My Macbook Pro cost
> $1400 a year ago, and it's the same one in that article, except with an
> 80GB HDD. Last August, nothing touched my machine's specs at the
> pricepoint, not to mention that the MBP is/was lighter than anything
> else in its price/performance range.

> tl;dr: there's more to a computer's value than simply which
> parts go into building it. "The whole is greater than the
> sum of its parts." ~ Tom Atlee

I agree with that, and I'd sooner buy a laptop from Apple than a PC, as I think we discussed in an earlier thread. Still, Mac's lowest laptop offering's around $1k, whereas generic PC notebooks go as low as $500. Is that enough of a margin for Apple's bottom line? From their current offerings, I'd say no.

> If BSD is a "pretty pretty princess," I'd hate to see what
> an ugly one looks like. If you're talking about the GUI,
> that video looked like mainly a demo of Expose (the GUI's
> best feature, bar none) and Quartz.

I mean the GUI. I prefer a user interface to be simple, unobtrusive, and functional -- I don't want things zipping and zooming and wrapping and bouncing around my screen all the time. Vista's a huge step in the wrong direction, but XP is just about right.
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Old 07-21-2007, 07:46 AM   #6
Essee
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Default Re: ORDERED MY NEW LAPTOP!!! :)

I actually happen to be someone who doesn't take one side or the other in Mac vs. PC (I'm sure that just means I'm crazy-- blame growing up in a house where both were used), although I did love the OLD old Macs, long before half of the current issues between Macs and PCs existed. I do love my current XP computer, though, and I have no plans to switch over to a Mac any time soon.

> An open platform has been a very, very good thing for PC
> consumers. The chip wars between AMD and Intel (and ATI /
> nVidia) even recently yielded the Core2 Duo and rock-bottom
> AMD prices.

I can agree there, although since Macs are now running on Intel, it does mean they reaped the benefits of the war as well.

> Between their closure of AAC, hoarding of the
> iPhone SDK, and aforementioned hardware isolation, they
> appear to be the same old Apple: a company that wants to
> control everything and only concedes ground due to consumer
> pressure -- not so different from Sony with their AC3 and UMD.

Then again, though, how much different does that sound to a lot of people from how Microsoft is running their side of the platform wars? They had to be split up to avoid a monopoly, after all... << Granted, seeming to act the same way is a very BAD thing for a company who always wants us to feel like they're NOT the same company as their competitor who has always held most of their market.

> I'm not looking
> forward to visiting the Mac store in 6 months (instead of
> NewEgg or Google Product Search,) looking for a software or
> hardware upgrade, and being forced to pay whatever's deemed
> reasonable for the glitzy Santa Monica crowd Apple caters to with its $599 portable phone.

Apple as a gadget producer and Apple as a computer producer seem to have different styles (thankfully), even though they have tried to tie the two together as often as possible (bad business idea, in my opinion). I would NEVER buy an iPhone, and the only reason I own an iPod Shuffle was someone thinking I'd like one for Christmas (I would've wanted one of Creative's Zens instead), but I would consider getting myself a recent Mac. (At the moment, the most recent one in our house is a eight- to ten-year-old PowerMac, which is actually not an official Mac, but my mother is planning to replace her weakening XP laptop with a MacBook Pro and give me the old one, although she will still be dual-booting or emulating XP on the new Mac.)

>I don't trust Apple. I trust myself and an open platform. I'd sooner give less of
> my cash to companies who mark their boundaries and compete
> in a free market rather than those who take an "integrate
> and dominate" approach. (I'm referring explicitly to
> hardware here . . . )

As the poster you're replying to said, at this point buyers DO seem to be getting bang for their buck, at the very least on the laptop end, and as far as I've been following it I think it's doing okay on the desktop end right now as well. Then again, that's just my opinion-- I know that for some people, higher price for better hardware/software doesn't mean anything at all. =) PC hardware can always be cheaper, depending on where you buy your parts, but that also drops probable reliability a bit. Reliability is one of the key selling points Apple has had for years, and having come face-to-face with FOUR motherboard deaths in the last two or three years on my PC (as well as one dead RAM stick and power supply that committed suicide) when my mom's ten-year-old Mac is still somehow purring along with its tiny hard drive without any hardware changes, and three other Macs in the house would work if they booted them (although one of them was used for so many years that the BATTERY actually died)... I think they may have a point there, or at least they have a good record on it. =)

> Still, Mac's lowest laptop offering's around $1k, whereas
> generic PC notebooks go as low as $500. Is that enough of a
> margin for Apple's bottom line? From their current
> offerings, I'd say no.

But I don't think that the $500 PC notebook is likely to have the same level hardware that the $1000 one does, so I'm not too sure that you can compare them quite like that...? I will admit that if you want something inexpensive, PCs are absolutely the (only) way to go, and as I mentioned some people don't care much WHAT they get as long as it's cheap, but you definitely get what you pay for either way. There are also other factors to consider, too; as I mentioned, for example, the reliability on Apple's computers tends to be pretty good, so you're also probably buying something that not only will run for a good long time, but probably won't need to pay for a replacement soon either, and that affects how much of an injury the price is for most people.

> I mean the GUI. I prefer a user interface to be simple,
> unobtrusive, and functional -- I don't want things zipping
> and zooming and wrapping and bouncing around my screen all
> the time. Vista's a huge step in the wrong direction, but XP
> is just about right.

Most of those options you mention hating, as far as I know from my experience with recent Macs in my graphic arts class, can be turned off and/or made to look much more similar to XP (and XP does quite a few similar animations unless you turn them off as well-- one of the first things I fixed when I installed it). It really drove me nuts when someone set the dock on the computer I was using to start tiny and then magnify to the largest possible size, but you can turn off the magnifying completely and set it to whatever size you want. I completely agree that Vista's a huge step in the wrong direction, by any means, albeit for MANY more reasons than any GUI issues. =P


Again, don't get me wrong, I love my XP computer (from which I am posting) and don't plan to switch over to a Mac any time soon, but I don't agree with anyone saying either "PCs suck, should've gotten a Mac" OR "Macs suck, should've gotten a PC." They're just different operating systems for different people, although one seems to have an extremely annoying ad campaign continuing for some reason. Yes, I'm alienated by Apple's ads too, none of you guys are alone. =P

P.S. I also hope I didn't come off as "mac is teh best theirs nuthin bad u cn say tahst tru bout it," since I definitely don't believe it. I mean, heck, they obviously haven't convinced me (or my mom, until this year) enough to go out and pick one up for a long time, so they've gotta be off-track someplace! I do agree with quite a few of the things the PC-only camp have to say about Macs, and disagree completely with the way Apple's trying to market them (as well as their other products right now), but I also think that the fighting can get way too heated from either "side". I do think it's interesting that most people I've ever seen fall almost entirely in one camp or another, though I guess it's usually the same with the platform wars (where I am also at least partially in a neutral position).



P.P.S. Sorry that my response looks worthy of a "tl;dr", but it's an interesting topic, and one that I clearly have things to say about.
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Old 07-21-2007, 08:26 AM   #7
puzzl
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Default Re: ORDERD MY NEW LAPTOP!!! :)

> closure of AAC

Sorry, but this is mis-information. You see, AAC is an open standard, Apple can't close it, which explains why my ps3 can play it back, my friend's zune and archos players can handle it, and my dvd player can as well. So my first point is Apple cannot close an open standard. That borders on FUD.

Now, what they have closed is their proprietary additions/extentions upon the AAC standard, which deal with DRM. Something that I see no problem with since it is necessary for their business model (RIAA wouldn't go anywhere without DRM), and it is not the only option available for getting your media. Judging by their success, I believe that not many other people have a problem with it either. They're essentially piggybacking FairPlay on the AAC standard. I'm all for being against DRM on principle, don't get me wrong, but sometimes the crusade against it all devolves into false facts and misinformation.
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Old 07-21-2007, 10:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: ORDERED MY NEW LAPTOP!!! :)

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Old 07-21-2007, 08:05 PM   #9
CEpeep
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Default Re: ORDERD MY NEW LAPTOP!!! :)

> The chip wars between AMD and Intel (and ATI /
> nVidia) even recently yielded the Core2 Duo and rock-bottom
> AMD prices. Compare this to Apple's sticking with its
> stagnant and overpriced PowerPC line until the open-hardware
> market left it in the dust.

They won't make the same mistake twice. It cost them money and market share last time. If Intel and nVidia get lazy, you can bet Apple will be moving on and finding new business partners.

> Of course, none of this is a problem while the hardware's
> competitive and I'm getting a good deal, but I'm not looking
> forward to visiting the Mac store in 6 months

In all fairness, people who need a new Mac every six months don't care about the price, or they have Apple's tower machines which have upgradeable components (the same ones a PC uses, aside from video cards). Software version upgrades for OS X are always $129 ($69 for students).

> I agree with that, and I'd sooner buy a laptop from Apple
> than a PC, as I think we discussed in an earlier thread.
> Still, Mac's lowest laptop offering's around $1k, whereas
> generic PC notebooks go as low as $500.

Sure, but the $500 laptops you see are rarely current generation hardware. If you're gonna compare hardware from previous generations, I've seen MacBooks for $699. They're spec'd out roughly the same as the $599 systems I've seen at Dell and such but they get better battery life, are lighter, have built-in cameras, etc. Apple has higher R&D costs than other OEMs, so the very low end of the spectrum (those $200-300 PCs you see at Best Buy) just aren't profitable for them.

> I mean the GUI. I prefer a user interface to be simple,
> unobtrusive, and functional -- I don't want things zipping
> and zooming and wrapping and bouncing around my screen all
> the time. Vista's a huge step in the wrong direction, but XP
> is just about right.

As someone with a lot of HCI experience, most people (not necessarily you, though) respond better to organic interfaces than artificial ones. The Mac OS GUI (and Vista's to an extent) are designed to behave as you'd expect things in the real world to. If you turn a page in a book, the previous page doesn't instantaneously turn into a new one. It moves to the side and reveals the next one behind it. The "zipping and zooming" happens in every OS, it's just that the Mac spends more effort showing you where whatever you switched from went so you can find it again easily. A GUI shouldn't just be a bunch of text boxes lying on a 2D surface. It should be natural, like papers and objects sitting on a desk. OS X and Vista are only a glimpse of the kinds of interfaces we'll see in the future, but they're definitely on the right track. I assume you've seen the http://youtube.com/watch?v=0ra5tp7K--ISeadragon demo</a>, but if not, check it out. It's the future of computing.

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