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Old 10-26-2008, 03:34 PM   #41
Lillymon
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That's a bit unfair, no really. Now I admit the polygon models in FF7 suck ass but still. First off the pre-rendered backgrounds in FF7 are very pretty of it's time and place.
Yes, but the problem there is that the human eye is drawn to the characters first and the background later. The characters are much more important, so it's very bad news when they're the weak link.

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In fact they are a total step up on Treasure Hunter G & Mario RPG's backgrounds because they weren't limited by the colour and tile limitations of the SNES.
True, but I still think Chrono Trigger is a prettier game. I might have said differently back in 1997, but FF7 really is a game that aged badly. The main problem there though is that game companies really don't care about how a game will age, they just want people ogling it right at this second. But the legacy of FF7 is making me think more and more about how a game's style will age, and I'm frankly put off by those that I think won't age well.

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Now one could argue that FF6 had better art but here you'd be comparing apples to oranges, as FF6 was drawn art and FF7 was pre-rendered.
Agreed, but I think Square went too early in retrospect. They really weren't ready for the move, but it worked anyway. I think it actually made for a rather anti-climactic start to the pre-rendered era.

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Then we come to the poly models, yes they suck even for 32 bit era. No people shouldn't brake in two like Pres. Shinra. I always remember that Zelda:OoT looks miles better ahead of FF7 in the poly department and it had to render backgrounds and characters. Ofcourse it really only shows Square's inexperience at using real time poly models and not much more. Actually the battle polys look loads better especially the high rez Cloud from the ending battle, but even then inexperience shows in their bones.
But they still got 8s and 9s, despite the poor models. I mean, how did that happen? Did they get extra points for effort? Even with the good backgrounds, broken models like that should pull it down to a 5 or 6. Inexperience be damned, it's the final result that counts.

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Needless to say the pre-rendered cg movie sequence looked good then but look crap now. It's like watching most early mid 90s 3D animation. Even stuff like Toy Story suffer from it, and Pixar was always one of the best.
Toy Story looks better, but that's simply because they had more time and resources. I'm getting increasingly tired of CG though. The whole style has reached its sell-by date for me and holds no appeal. CG is now a means to and end rather than an end in itself, and anyone relying on pretty graphics won't get far with me now.

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The fact is those were just hype at the right time for those things to impress people.
That doesn't explain the idiots on various sites calling it "The Best Game Ever" though. I guess that's down their own warped memories. They even complain about how it looks in pSX. That's what it really looks like! Mark a game based on what it actually is, not your fuzzy memories of 1997.

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Personally I like 2D drawn art better, but hey 3D became a rage and seams more of a standard now. And one can't deny it helped. Yes fmv's truly equal Lunar, Popful Mail other Sega CD/Turbo Dou game but in till it was on a popular console and in 3D people didn't notice.
Lunar: The Silver Star is a bit overlooked in terms of groundbreaking RPGs in my opinion. The whole voice acting thing that was something that Square took damn near a decade to touch. I think voice acting does more for a good RPG that any number of flashy FMVs.

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As for character design Square did it more for the fact that Amano's art look terrible in low poly because it's just so scribbly. Hell they had a hard time converting it in to good sprites some times. I actually like the character designs of FF7 but not the more realistic junk Square went to with FF8 on. In fact out side of FF9 the other FFs art style has been getting to same-y.
Definitely agreed. FF12 actually had a different character designer, but I didn't notice due to the fact that Vaan could practically be Tidus' twin brother. What the hell happened there? I was appalled to find that the development team initially intended for Basch to be the main character, but shied away when they thought a manly main character would adversely impact sales. As a result we got the flat Vaan and Penelo as main characters while Basch was moved down to secondary status.

FF12 was one time where Square didn't have much of a graphical advantage, and so needed to be bold with the rest. The gameplay delivered, but the characters and plot did not. Cowardice seldom makes for striking games...

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I like the art style of the original FF Tactics though, and the Crystal Chronicals series. I think looks better when it isn't doing DS chibis, but.... Still I never really like Amano's art all that much, but I do think it might make a new #FF look less same-y.
I don't think they need to go back, but they definitely need an artistic overhaul. I've no idea what that would entail, but then that's their job. Surprise me!

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(Also why the Tales of Heart CG version? I wouldn't buy that version if it makes it to the US. Why must Namco try and dopple FFs same-yness onto a Tales game)
I have been lambasting that CG version on the Tales of Forum. I hate it so much, and you seem to be the only person who shares my fears about where Namco is going with this. Production IG's animation is a marvel to behold, yet Namco seem determined to end their partnership in order to turn the Tales series into another bland FF clone. A pity too as Tales of Vesperia looks like the first Tales game I'm actually going to buy and play on one of my home consoles. I hope the CG version sinks like a stone so Namco go no further with this experiment.

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Really however it amazes me how people often feel that FF7 is somehow different from the Nes & Snes FFs. Ulitmaly, gag yes, its the same. The Matteria system is basically the Job system meets the Magicite system. Really the only thing that make FF7 any different from FF1-6 is the trapped in Midgard first part and that's only because you can't get to the overworld.
Funnily enough, Midgar is my favourite bit. I thought that was very atmospheric and the plot seemed to be going somewhere quickly and with purpose. As soon as the game goes on to the overworld though, it just seems to stop. I didn't really get why it was so important that I be chasing Sephiroth everywhere. As I said, I never make it to the end of disc 1, and I've also never actually seen Aeris die in-game. I've only seen the FMV because I once extracted and viewed it with a computer program.

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To say the story suck is stupid also though, but hey unlike the fan boys would have you believe FF6 is far better constructed. Ofcourse Japanese RPGs on a whole seem to always suffer from the not as good as a Manga/Anime. Kind of makes me want a RPG company to employ a Shoujo manga writer. Original CLAMP or Yu Watase written RPG yes please. But I feel that such a dream will never happen. One would note that when they do come together the game is the one that ends up sucking, Full Metal Alchemist any one.
Well I eventually concluded that FFX made sense, but I had to play it twice and take a look through Wikia first. I'm guessing it was either bad story telling or an inattentive viewer that made it seems so crap the first time around. My standards for RPG storytelling are rather low really, I'm not expecting them to blow my mind.
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Old 10-26-2008, 05:37 PM   #42
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Best ever? No no no. However:
I hated polygons from the beginning. Not just for their appearance, but also the shift in game styles it brought forth fairly quickly. I wouldn't have anything to do with Playstation until Final Fantasy 7, which I specifically rented a unit for, despite being prepared long in advance to hate it. I liked at last having monsters which could move around and were proportioned more sensibly to the heroes. There's no defending the outside battle figures, nor the rendered animations which use those versions, that much I think everybody can agree on. Fortunately, in many scenes, despite the ridiculous contrast, the characters are often rather tiny against backgrounds which it makes sense for them to be tiny against, so it's not as big a problem as it could have been. Their tiny-ness makes the world seem larger than previously it had been possible to do, and I like the world to seem large, especially when I'm circumnavigating it in ten seconds on a flying machine.
The story doesn't make a whole mess of sense, especially if you don't see it to the end... I'm not still not clear on all of it, but I never found it boring. I think it handles the sudden drop in structure post-Midgar and fills its world map far better than its sequel. Which isn't relevant but I felt like saying it.

I don't find it terribly fair to complain about a game aging badly and then to bring up something like Lunar. I didn't complete the Sega CD version, but I did finish the [presumably improved] remake version and when I wasn't running around talking to people I'd already talked to, I was entering pretty much the same sequence of battle commands, for hours. Even being the only game where I got serious use out of the sleep spell couldn't hide the monotony. I liked the story and most of the characters, but it wasn't enough.

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Old 10-26-2008, 06:10 PM   #43
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I don't find it terribly fair to complain about a game aging badly and then to bring up something like Lunar. I didn't complete the Sega CD version, but I did finish the [presumably improved] remake version and when I wasn't running around talking to people I'd already talked to, I was entering pretty much the same sequence of battle commands, for hours. Even being the only game where I got serious use out of the sleep spell couldn't hide the monotony. I liked the story and most of the characters, but it wasn't enough.
Heh, I was more talking about looks than gameplay. Admittedly, in terms of gameplay, it tends to be the other way around. Final Fantasy gameplay ages well, other games not so much. Hell, I've recently been playing Shadow Hearts and can't count the amount of times I was frustrated by not being able to switch characters in battle or being forced to find inns rather than healing at save points. Both features implemented in Final Fantasy X, released nine days before Shadow Hearts.
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:18 PM   #44
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What a game i hadnt completed since 1997 but i download ultima edition and completed in 48 hrs but with cheats
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:01 AM   #45
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I have been lambasting that CG version on the Tales of Forum. I hate it so much, and you seem to be the only person who shares my fears about where Namco is going with this. Production IG's animation is a marvel to behold, yet Namco seem determined to end their partnership in order to turn the Tales series into another bland FF clone. A pity too as Tales of Vesperia looks like the first Tales game I'm actually going to buy and play on one of my home consoles. I hope the CG version sinks like a stone so Namco go no further with this experiment.
That astonishes me that you would find so few people that agree with you (I know I do). I'd choose the anime version in a heart beat. I'm glad they didn't go that route with Tales of Symphonia: Knight of Ratatosk/Dawn of the New World.
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Old 11-07-2008, 03:10 AM   #46
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I prefer Yoshitaka Amano's artwork over Tetsuya Nomura's any day. Amano's art style had a sort of...well, it's hard to describe it. I suppose "rough sketchiness" would be how to describe it. When Nomura took over...eh. Sure, the drawings were more detailed and well-defined, but that's when the crappy outfits started appearing. What I mean by that is...well, take FFX's artwork for example. Tidus' outfit has all of these useless zippers and other nonsensical crap on it, and Lulu's dress? It's half-made of belts. I know that a lot of people like Nomura's art better, but I just think that Amano's kicks ass.
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Old 11-07-2008, 04:45 AM   #47
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Memories, huh? Let's see. How about this: "the game is so damn easy, you can almost play it while sleeping."
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Old 11-08-2008, 12:24 PM   #48
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Why does he cast Hades (The black cauldron) so often ? For what purpose ? Also, Yuffie was always my weakest character.
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Old 11-09-2008, 04:11 AM   #49
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Why does he cast Hades (The black cauldron) so often ? For what purpose ? Also, Yuffie was always my weakest character.
It paralyzes Ruby, so he can't counter attack (notice when he's moving vs moving very slowly; moving slowly means he can counter). Yuffie's power for that battle comes entirely from the Conformer (though all three of them have max strength). Doom of the Living is nice, too. Ruby has the highest defense of any monster in the game, so all of the power you can get will help.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:57 PM   #50
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Another good memory of this game for me is the music. it had some of the most memorable music ive experienced in a final fantasy game.

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I don't think I agree with this...Pac-Man, Tetris? Still fun. A good game will always be good. That said, not all people agree on what games ARE good, obvoiusly.
right, I never said they were not good games. but I promise you that some kid playing pacman now - who had never played it before - after he's just finished playing gears of war 2 will say "this game fucking sucks donkey ass dude." I guarantee you he would not view the game as groundbreaking like it was when it was first released. it was the type of thing people were telling there their friends about "omfg dude you gotta come to the arcade with me after you get payed so we can play pacman and/or tetris." same with pinball. I like them all. tetris more than pacman. addicted to meteos...
I was playing metal gear solid 1 the other day and the graphics are beyond awful to me. I remember when I first played it I thought it looked incredible. first thing I thought when I saw it this year was "I don't remember the graphics being that bad."
The story I used to think was motion picture caliber now I think is not so well done. the controls seem clunky and unresponsive and the camera generally sucks. obviously my opinion has changed with the times. it's still fun to me in small doses, but i cant spend hours and hours completely enthralled the way I did before. queue cue MGS4

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