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Old 09-13-2009, 03:22 PM   #11
shawn
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Did anyone else notice how nutty some of those protesters were. It was like watching a town meeting at a place where most of the residents were inbred. I used to think nuclear protesters when I was young were a little nuts defying the police but these people bring it to an entirely new level.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:12 PM   #12
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I'm watching Obama now on CNN and the republicans are just sitting there while the democrats are all up clapping. One part he says "all people deserve healthcare" and not one republican stood.

Now I hear all these republicans telling their voters during elections on how abortions are wrong and how the church says it's an abomination. Well isn't letting someone die because even though they work they can't afford a doctor or insurance the same thing when in many cases these people can be made perfectly healthy with little effort?

Obama missed one huge thing he could have said to either have shamed them "doubtful" or made the people that support them think about their own support for these people. It's just asking one simple statement with a question after and it would make many just stop and think about this entire issue.

He should have said "I know a majority of the republicans here claim to be very religious and I have one question for you to think about when it comes to insuring the poor and sick."

"If faced with this situation, what would Jesus do?"

I know that's used for a joke often online, but right now it seems that if I was religious this would make it a moral imperative to get healthcare insurance for everyone. If they think about this and can still say that we shouldn't help the working poor or sick then I believe they are either lying about their religion or they don't have a clue about religion and compassion at all.
The issue is really deeper than that. Back in the olden days, religious Christians were too far left (economically) for either Republicans or Democrats. These people were hardcore socialists who believed society should provide for the poor to whatever extent is necessary, war was almost always an evil (even when necessary), and had no problems with taxing the hell out of rich people to buy things that benefited society as a whole (IIRC, there was even a movement for a National Health System, similar to Britain's, led by Christian preachers, but I may be wrong about that). The change seemed to happen in the 50s and 60s, when the Republicans started changing how they ran political campaigns, instead of running on the most serious issues of governance, they ran on special interest issues (abortion, evolution, interracial marriage, segregation, and so on) and they also began getting organizers to enter churches to corrupt the organizations from the inside. And the issue became one of "If you'll support our wars, our mercenary profiteering, if you'll support our financial backers using public resources to increase their riches, we'll stop integration, we'll make sure evolution never gets taught in public schools, we'll outlaw abortion in every state," and so on.

It's really a bit more complicated than that, but that's when you began to see the rise of guys like Pat “I know one man who was impotent who gave AIDS to his wife and the only thing they did was kiss” Robertson and Jerry “Textbooks are Soviet propaganda” Falwell, who were all about exploiting their followers to enrich themselves.

To be fair, under a public plan, we'd be paying to cover the same illegal aliens we do now (because emergency rooms can't turn away dying patients, and shouldn't be allowed to do so), but the only way to solve that problem would be to get the illegals out of the country.

I also don't know what mandatory insurance is going to accomplish, since that just seems like a pointless payout to medical insurers, who, in my opinion, shouldn't even exist. It's not like they really provide much of a service to begin with, and if you do get really sick, they're really good at making sure they don't have to actually provide the service they claim to be providing. So why not... you know, purge Insurance Companies as the victim of the next holocaust?
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This is the biggest problem I've had with the 'debate' so far. Instead of rationally debating the plan (or any plan) I've seen way too much FUD. Like you said...death panels? My reaction when I first heard this thought was (and I'm really not kidding): "What the hell? Are they high or something?"
For whatever reason, the right wing is obsessed with painting Democrats as Nazis. I guess it ties in with the abortion arguments, which are insane, but people believe that somehow abortion is a holocaust. I don't remember the part where they said it was their mission to kill all the babies, so there would never again be babies on this earth (which is what Hitler tried to do with the Jews, homosexuals and Roma).
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:10 PM   #13
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You're absolutely correct about the Christians. You can take Quakers/Shakers as an example. They are much like Christians used to be with bartering and helping out neighbors and all that but it seems Christians are more focused at times on money than good will and the total refusal of a lot of Christians to want to help the poor is a good example.

As for illegal aliens it would be doable but the government won't push it to hard since they want that Hispanic vote like they always back Israel for the Jewish voters. It's all politics.

I do think that law should be fixed to maybe something like "give any non legal immigrant minimum care to keep them from dying then hold them for authorities". Sure there will be some but it will make a lot think twice before coming here in the first place if they realize they are medically on their own unless they don't mind deportation.

The part about getting dropped was covered by Obama during his speech. He stated the reform part of the legislation would include not being able to drop someone for preexisting condition and it also will make sure just because something is expensive they couldn't try to worm there way out of paying the bill by claiming it isn't covered. They will be required to cover anything that you can die from basically or that will stop you from becoming a cripple or just have your condition turn into something worse. They will have to be responsible and not lie or pull some bullshit to not pay. There will be oversight of this also which is awesome.

I think this will make this country a bit better off for the average person that has insurance since they will have peace of mind that the insurance company will have to cover their ass if something really bad happens.
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Old 09-15-2009, 11:12 PM   #14
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You're absolutely correct about the Christians. You can take Quakers/Shakers as an example. They are much like Christians used to be with bartering and helping out neighbors and all that but it seems Christians are more focused at times on money than good will and the total refusal of a lot of Christians to want to help the poor is a good example.
That's how you divide a group.
When you assemble those divisions back into classification, the parent group does not automatically have those same traits that one's judgments pronounce.
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Old 09-15-2009, 11:57 PM   #15
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That's how you divide a group.
When you assemble those divisions back into classification, the parent group does not automatically have those same traits that one's judgments pronounce.
What I'm saying is that Christianity is supposed to be for good will and do unto others but lately there is a vocal branch that is saying screw everyone and athiest like me who were once called immoral by Christians decades who actually believe it's the right thing to do in helping out people who may have been hurt or are ill for no reason of their own.

I saw that rally and I saw a bunch of people that said people without healthcare didn't work hard or other stuff that had no valid logic behind it.

Hell I bet half them people couldn't handle my job and I don't have insurance. Not because I don't want it, not because I don't work, because my boss can't afford it because of bad trade agreements made by our government.

Now because of those agreements I believe my government owes me and my company because if those agreements were not made I would have and would be paying for insurance.

I also know that I WILL if hurt walk 100 ft up the street and right into the emergency room and walk out and not pay. I would if I had insurance or had the money or had money for the insurance but I do not thanks to my government in their infinite wisdom and I'm glad Obama is fixing the GOP mess.

The tech bubble as so many call it did not burst. It was moved to China thanks to my government, and corporations and their lobbyist and the creation of NAFTA and GATT and anything Obama does to remedy that and that includes saying fuck all exporters and all our companies overseas and just tearing up the trade treaties and saying to those countries, SUCK IT.

I really believe this and I also believe many of those 47 million without insurance were screwed by these corporations, those treaties, and our government and the entire time Bush and the republican controlled for 6 years house and senate didn't bat an eyelash the entire time millions of jobs were outsourced.

So Because of Bush, those fucked up tea partiers, and every other racist fuckwad, and greedy bastard that says they believe in god and does shit like this I say FUCK THEM ALL.

Yeah I know, real immature but I've sat and listened to their lies, and stupidity for to many years to care if they all just dropped dead since it would make the honesty and IQ in this country and our government to a much higher level than it is or has been in many years.
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:59 AM   #16
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I know people like that. I know some Christians who struggle with their faith.
All of us struggle with our faith, as a consequence of living.

I respect our experimental value, and I understand and have felt your despair on this group.

There is much corruption.
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:34 AM   #17
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I know people like that. I know some Christians who struggle with their faith.
All of us struggle with our faith, as a consequence of living.

I respect our experimental value, and I understand and have felt your despair on this group.

There is much corruption.

I use to be Christian and the reason I eventually became an atheist was because of Christians. After seeing displays of massive dishonesty, greed, self centeredness, violence, bigotry, and massive hypocrisy by most Christians I knew and without thought or guilt I realized that a lot of religious people "not all or close" disgusted me. It also made me look at the religion and other religions without bias from the outside. This scared me to even consider this since in doing this I was being unfaithful in my own mind.

It took years but finally I realized that I didn't believe in any god anymore. I also realized that I had to relearn a lot of things I took for granted like my thoughts about other religions and stuff that Christianity told me was wrong. In actuality these things weren't wrong but conflicted with the religion and would cause followers to question or abandon the religion if thought about with an open mind using logic.

I am still learning to view the world in an unbiased way and I'm finding there are a lot of very stupid, selfish, and superstitious people running it and it's scaring the shit out of me.
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:05 PM   #18
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I personally prefer the term "nature"; I do not see a difference.
The only reason atheism is not a religion of its own, is because being an atheist does not necessarily mean you have faith in a system of values.
Though in this case, the ones visiting this site clearly have a strong system of values. It is reason why discussions like this extend.

Is that not what religion really is, a system of values? An atheist of no religion, has no thoughts. Every organism in this realm subject to impulse and instinct has a system of values. Machines, computers, whatever the designs in them, have values. Even a brick of the wall has instructions, so it has religion, even if the difference here is that it does not really elect to follow them.

"massive dishonesty, greed, self centeredness, violence, bigotry, and massive hypocrisy"
These things (trying to not focus on "violence") are present in all humans in every imagination possible.
We feel, so we elect perceptions. When we are hateful, we home in on perceptions like those in situations.
Thus as long as we are bound by spirit, all hatred is associated with hypocrisy. Without feeling, we cannot define terms such as dishonesty and greed.

The feelings are still strong, and the ones you describe instantiate more struggles against failure in humankind.
Next year, 2010, Year of the Tiger, Dracula's period of birth before revolution from the year of humankind
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Old 09-17-2009, 03:03 AM   #19
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The feelings are still strong, and the ones you describe instantiate more struggles against failure in humankind.
Next year, 2010, Year of the Tiger, Dracula's period of birth before revolution from the year of humankind
After all, what is a man?
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Old 09-17-2009, 05:22 AM   #20
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After all, what is a man?
A MISERABLE LITTLE PILE OF SECRETS!
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