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Old 10-15-2009, 08:49 PM   #11
The 9th Sage
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Somehow five years back I came across this article that really explained the stop and swap mystery but can't find it at all now. It was in the form of a fake interview (huh) with an ex-Rare worker.

I think it was for the isolated cheat codes in the next game, Banjo-Tooie, but I really don't remember. Actually I remember there was also a "beta Bottle's revenge mode" feature where Devil Bottles lets a second controller (i.e. like a friend or something) control the bosses against you when you're in a boss fight...at least one of the eggs from B-K had a tie to that.
The Rarewitchproject dudes didn't actually complete the mystery to find out about the beta at first though; it looks like they found it in the binary.
Ah yes, in Banjo Tooie...evidently they enabled this with Gameshark codes. It was more than bosses IIRC, the second player could take control of normal enemies as well. It's too bad it was cut out, it sounded pretty cool actually.

I seem to remember them getting the Stop 'n' Swop menu too (If I remember, there are these really long cheats you can enter in that one room where all the cheats are entered that let you obtain the eggs and the Ice Key). That Ice Key used to drive me nuts. I spent some time trying to find a way in there. You've probably seen it, but there was evidently some connection to DK64 as well (at least according to this article). I'm sure there was more about the Banjo games, but I can't find the articles on there yet.
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Old 10-16-2009, 04:43 AM   #12
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Yeah I think the way without cheats to get the eggs (and also the key) in Banjo-Kazooie was to enter those long codes in the Sandcastlefloor at Treasure Trove Cove.

My memory's been foggy enough to forget Mumbo showed anything. If you've got Project64 1.6 the code to set "Bottles' Revenge Mode" is bundled with it in the CHT resource file.

That article is a good read. Bah there were a couple unrelated notes that, pfft speculation, and also they may have missed one thing at the time.

Now I'm not at all sure about what to do with the ice key you get from Banjo-Kazooie; Hell maybe Mumbo's revealing the eggs and key was designed after simultaneous work with Donkey Kong 64 in early beta work.
But I do know this article at least is not addressing the concern, that the ice key in Banjo-Tooie we can get is not just some repeated mystery. The eggs alone don't come in to use.

The ice key in Banjo-Tooie, might have been a remake and also part of the idea of cancellation of the Stop 'N Swop idea on the N64 after turning off one game and then on the next. It is used within the same game itself: Take the key with you to Glitter Gulch Mine, go to the waterfall caverns, Talon-Torpedo-blast the boulder at the bottom, and swim through a network to an isolated chamber of the Hailfire Peaks level that has a locked ice box where you approach with the key to open it.
What's inside is what's called a Mega Glowbo; any short explanation in to that would be a waste of time if one hasn't played the game though.

So what I'm thinking is, Donkey Kong 64 was more just evidence that the SNS idea was in part reversed--not just that the reload function wasn't final for Banjo-Tooie but also that the beta string "ICE KEY" was probably an idea set before work began deep enough into Banjo-Tooie.

Great, I finally found that article I read years ago (on web.archive)!
http://web.archive.org/web/200711091...top_fin_en.php
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:57 AM   #13
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Yeah I think the way without cheats to get the eggs (and also the key) in Banjo-Kazooie was to enter those long codes in the Sandcastlefloor at Treasure Trove Cove.

My memory's been foggy enough to forget Mumbo showed anything. If you've got Project64 1.6 the code to set "Bottles' Revenge Mode" is bundled with it in the CHT resource file.

That article is a good read. Bah there were a couple unrelated notes that, pfft speculation, and also they may have missed one thing at the time.

Now I'm not at all sure about what to do with the ice key you get from Banjo-Kazooie; Hell maybe Mumbo's revealing the eggs and key was designed after simultaneous work with Donkey Kong 64 in early beta work.
But I do know this article at least is not addressing the concern, that the ice key in Banjo-Tooie we can get is not just some repeated mystery. The eggs alone don't come in to use.

The ice key in Banjo-Tooie, might have been a remake and also part of the idea of cancellation of the Stop 'N Swop idea on the N64 after turning off one game and then on the next. It is used within the same game itself: Take the key with you to Glitter Gulch Mine, go to the waterfall caverns, Talon-Torpedo-blast the boulder at the bottom, and swim through a network to an isolated chamber of the Hailfire Peaks level that has a locked ice box where you approach with the key to open it.
What's inside is what's called a Mega Glowbo; any short explanation in to that would be a waste of time if one hasn't played the game though.

So what I'm thinking is, Donkey Kong 64 was more just evidence that the SNS idea was in part reversed--not just that the reload function wasn't final for Banjo-Tooie but also that the beta string "ICE KEY" was probably an idea set before work began deep enough into Banjo-Tooie.

Great, I finally found that article I read years ago (on web.archive)!
http://web.archive.org/web/200711091...top_fin_en.php
Pretty interesting article...the screens for the DK thing don't really prove anything though. I doubt the Rare guy would have a reason to lie about it, however. Apparently you can actually use the key in Banjo-Kazooie then? I didn't know there was a way.

Oh, I love stuff like this. It's too bad it didn't get released in it's full-on form, but pretty awesome to read about nonetheless. I'm always fascinated by dummied out items, or secrets that are kind of there but never quite made release...(like the references in the Perfect Dark game to "Perfect Head", which was the link it would have had with the Gameboy Camera and a GB Transfer pak, the still existant references to the 64DD in Ocarina's coding...).
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:23 AM   #14
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It is pretty thrilling. That "supergloking" code the ex-Rare dude mentioned, that is one of the code patterns that has been found in the binary and also behaves like a correctly entered code, in the process of hitting the letters in -Tooie's code chamber, yet has no result or confirmation but a continued sequence or pattern. (This means, among some other codes, the code itself exists but to no point where there is any registration or result.) Of course with the mega glowbos removed as part of SNS so was this code.

For Banjo-Kazooie, myself I can't verify because my cartridge save has the ice key but all six eggs as well. This article has reminded me that only the four eggs in the screen middle are needed and that the two extra ones to the side are used as anti-cheating measures that, once collected, render the mystery impossible to solve (or as if you had collected nothing).

I'll just join Cornellius then and work on a complete save for Banjo-Kazooie as well...see if I can take some screen shots, offer save states, etc. to justify this.
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Old 10-16-2009, 04:57 PM   #15
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For Banjo-Kazooie, myself I can't verify because my cartridge save has the ice key but all six eggs as well. This article has reminded me that only the four eggs in the screen middle are needed and that the two extra ones to the side are used as anti-cheating measures that, once collected, render the mystery impossible to solve (or as if you had collected nothing).

I'll just join Cornellius then and work on a complete save for Banjo-Kazooie as well...see if I can take some screen shots, offer save states, etc. to justify this.
I saw that about the extras...I wondered what their purpose was (I don't remember where, but I got the idea that there were a few extras from somewhere). If I thought it wouldn't take a while to get a complete game of Banjo going I'd try it myself. It'll be pretty cool if it works in some fashion (well, not expecting it to work with Banjo-Tooie, but I mean starting the sequence at least).
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:15 AM   #16
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The Stop N Swap was I think fully finished in the 1st game its just the extra code was needed in the 2nd. The reason it was never done was Nintendo's fault because by the time the 2nd game came out the N64 got a revised motherboard that used different capacitors. The old version of the 64 had older capacitors that still kept a charge after the console was switched off still powering the RAM. In the later versions of the motherboard the capacitors didn't hold the charge long enough to keep memory in the RAM so RARE couldn't do anything with it to keep data in time to switch out the game to unlock the key and stuff so they did the workaround and just let you collect it in the second game instead. SO in a way this was a good thing because if they did finish all this before the new revision of the 64 you wouldn't be able to get it working making you pissed off!
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:49 PM   #17
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Oh yeah, I know...it was pretty cool idea, but thwarted by technology.
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:04 PM   #18
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Maybe it's me, but I really didn't like the sort of GFX found in DKC and other related games.

What's it called, semi prerendered sprites or something?
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:35 AM   #19
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Maybe it's me, but I really didn't like the sort of GFX found in DKC and other related games.

What's it called, semi prerendered sprites or something?
I believe they are completely pre-rendered, then flattened into sprites and background layers (we use effectively the same technique for rendered FMVs today). It was fairly innovative for the time, and I do actually like the DKC games myself. I don't think the graphics look that bad, and they do have plenty of 'personality' to them.

Edit: That being said, Nintendo allegedly saw DKC and told Shigeru Miyamoto that they wanted that sort of graphical style for Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. Miyamoto was not happy with this suggestion, so we want off and came up with the 'hand-drawn' style that made Yoshi's Island so timeless and unique. I must admit here that Yoshi's Island is clearly better than any of the DKC games.

The lesson of the story: Don't fuck with Shigeru Miyamoto.
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:41 AM   #20
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The lesson of the story: Don't fuck with Shigeru Miyamoto.
Indeed. Those kinds of graphics can be good, but here's a case against them (the never-came-out DS A Boy and his Blob game):


If they are used in an alright way (something like DKC) they aren't terrible, but man...look at those screenshots. Then look up a picture of the Wii "A Boy and his Blob" that recently came out.
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