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Old 02-28-2006, 08:32 PM   #21
blargg
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Default Re: SNES NTSC Video Filter

> I hate playing on my TV because there's always a sort of
> ghosting going around. It's not the system's fault; I assume
> it's due to the crappy RF signal I always got. While I
> enjoyed playing in my youth, these days those graphics are
> distracting. Maybe I'm just picky.

I use composite video and I've always seen some faint diagonal lines fairly loosely spaced, that change speed slowly, and it annoys me too. Not as much as the blocky pixels on an emulator, though; things just look too crisp and chunky on emulators. For other systems like the NES, using an NTSC video filter brings out subtle effects where dithering is used on back background, while the SNES has enough colors that this is less of an issue. Several weeks ago I had even written that it probably wasn't worth implementing for the SNES. No video filter is superior, but it is fun to be making one that so closely resembles a TV (and is still efficient). I do share the opinion that video captured composite video looks like crap.
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Old 02-28-2006, 10:24 PM   #22
byuu
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Default Re: SNES NTSC Video Filter

> In our performance tests before adding the NTSC code to
> bsnes, SSE2 code generation hardly affect the speed; maybe
> it is important for something other than the NTSC filter. No
> matter, I've released the NTSC code so builds of other
> less-intensive SNES emulators should appear soon.

SSE2 support increases performance of bsnes as a whole by >=15% on Athlon 64 processors. The effect is negligible on P4 processors.

Ultimately, I'm going to need separate releases. One with SSE2, one without, and one with the debugger and polymorphic classes enabled. Hooray, bandwidth.

As far as the SNES NTSC filter, it is needed for proper hires color math. The TV has some interesting blending properties and this filter emulates them correctly unlike the hacks used in current emulators (hires is unfiltered, pseudo-hires is just blended to half the resolution, ZSNES has no pseudo-hires support).
As a result, pseudo-hires is finally emulated correctly in games like Jurassic Park and Kirby's Dreamland 3.

And for those that hate it, that's why there's HQ2x support

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Old 02-28-2006, 10:39 PM   #23
D--
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Default Re: SNES NTSC Video Filter

> Ultimately, I'm going to need separate releases. One with
> SSE2, one without, and one with the debugger and polymorphic
> classes enabled. Hooray, bandwidth.

I would think that won't make a difference since everyone is just going to download the specific release they want. How many people really say, "Hmmm ... well, I have a Celeron 133MHz and this needs 3GHz. I guess I'll download the default release, the SSE2 one my processor doesn't even support, the debugging version even though it eats more memory and I can't program, and, hey, why not get the polymorphic build too?"
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:56 PM   #24
Dark Knight Kain
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Default Re: SNES NTSC Video Filter

> Yeah, I heard Pagefault is going to be messing with it and
> we should see a WIP of ZSNES with it soon.

http://zsnes.game-host.org/~pagefault/n.zip

Test version with the filter <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:18 AM   #25
icenine0
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Default Re: SNES NTSC Video Filter

> Lastly, I really want to thank you for adding this. Without
> a filter like this, 98% of players could never see the Der
> Langrisser font the way I designed it to look ... (You
> remember how fucking long I spent making that font look
> perfect for televisions only to have it look WAY too narrow
> on emulators)

Is your Langrisser translation project still active?
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:11 AM   #26
JadussD
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Default Re: SNES NTSC Video Filter

> Today I had an idea of how the SNES NTSC composite video
> output might work. After a couple of hours I've got output
> very close to what my video capture gets from a SNES.
> Apparently it's very similar to the NES.

You know, when I heard about this, I thought to myself "This is dumb. Who would want crappy NTSC quality video when we can play our old games on monitors now?" while acknowledging what a technical feat this is. Then I played with it, and it was just...DAMN COOL. It looks like my freakin' TV! Mine was a little noiser than this, but it's par for the course for most NTSC TVs. Anyways, here's a drunken SNES loving thank you for this cool thing you've made, and a congratulation for your awesome avatar.
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:29 AM   #27
MegaManJuno
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Default Re: SNES NTSC Video Filter

Maybe it's just my PC or a problem in this build of ZSNES (it is a test build after all), but there seems to be a lot of "pixel dancing" going on when I tried it out earlier, making it really unpleasant to look at for me (and I can imagine eyestrain after a while).

The still shots posted earlier look decent for reproducing the TV effect though. I'll probably not end up using it anyway, as I actually prefer a "cleaner" image that emulation can provide over a TV set. But, I can respect the work put into it and I figure a lot of other people will really dig it.
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:13 PM   #28
blargg
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Default Re: SNES NTSC Video Filter

> Maybe it's just my PC or a problem in this build of ZSNES

> (it is a test build after all), but there seems to be a lot

> of "pixel dancing" going on [...]




It's a refresh rate issue. Someone needs to write a nice epileptic-seizure-inducing ROM that inverts the screen every frame so you can see whether your monitor's refresh rate is correct (perfectly even flickering) or incorrect (flickering pulsates over time). That's the problem almost everyone is encountering.

> The still shots posted earlier look decent for reproducing

> the TV effect though. I'll probably not end up using it

> anyway, as I actually prefer a "cleaner" image that

> emulation can provide over a TV set.




Try the filter again once a "merge fields" option has been added to the user interface. That will eliminate the flicker and give you what one of my earlier screenshots in this thread gives (the right image from the one with the even + odd = merged examples).
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:33 PM   #29
MegaManJuno
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Default Re: SNES NTSC Video Filter

Refresh rate was 60Hz, but just thought that I didn't check the frameskip to see if it was set on auto or not (I think it was). Would that affect it as well? If so, that could explain the seeming randomness in the flickering, and I'll have to try it again(making sure to use a forced frameskip of 0) and see if it makes a difference once I get some free time from this project for work.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:25 PM   #30
Dark Knight Kain
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Default Re: SNES NTSC Video Filter

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Refresh rate was 60Hz, but just thought that I didn't check the frameskip to see if it was set on auto or not (I think it was). Would that affect it as well?

<hr></blockquote>

It does, turning the frameskip off makes it a lot easier on the eyes, but oddly even with frameskip set to "0" it still runs the game too fast <img src=smilies/eek13.gif>
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