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Old 05-03-2005, 03:52 AM   #21
Lillymon
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Default Re: What's your favorite emulator(s)?

> All I know is that MAME does a poorer job of running full
> speed than other more specialised emus.

MAME aims for accuracy. That's why it can be a bit slower. See those new ultra-accurate NES emulators that require at least 1Ghz to run at full speed? Same thing. Sometimes you need to trade some speed to get more accuracy. Hacks can speed things up, but the MAME FAQ (part M16) puts it best:

"Hacks, while maybe appearing to be good in a short perspective, are always bad and destructive in the long perspective. The more hacks you put into the code, the harder it becomes to make new additions neatly as the hacks will require workaround hacks, so you'll end up on a downward slope of more and more crappy hacks, until everything collapses under its own weight.

It's like peeing in your pants in the winter to get warmer. It may work for a while, but it will quickly start to get really cold and there will be certain things that are no longer possible to do."

> 7MB is also ridiculously large for a binary.

Not for one that emulates all those different systems. I count 810 drivers in total.

> An emulator is an emulator and will be attached to illegal
> activities, no matter how much one tries to claim otherwise.
> I am willing to bet that more MAME users pirate ROMs than
> purchase them.

Wow, people who use emulators get ROMs illegally? I never knew that! The fact that half of my HD is crammed with illegally downloaded ROMs and ISOs never tipped me off!

Illegal is illegal, but it's less immoral if you wait for the manufacturers to stop selling products before you move in an emulate them. That's what MAME does.

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Old 05-03-2005, 04:54 AM   #22
Wren
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Default Re: What's your favorite emulator(s)?

> MAME aims for accuracy. That's why it can be a bit slower.
> See those new ultra-accurate NES emulators that require at
> least 1Ghz to run at full speed? Same thing. Sometimes you
> need to trade some speed to get more accuracy. Hacks can
> speed things up, but the MAME FAQ (part M16) puts it best:

I'm not talking about adding hacks, I'm talking about optimising code.

> Not for one that emulates all those different systems. I
> count 810 drivers in total.

See above. You might also want to see this.

> Wow, people who use emulators get ROMs illegally? I never
> knew that! The fact that half of my HD is crammed with
> illegally downloaded ROMs and ISOs never tipped me off!

Perhaps I misunderstood your original statement, but it sounded to me like you were excluding MAME from the "kiddie warez" realm while condemning NeoRagex (and other MAME variants) to it in your last post. I merely pointed out the flaw in that argument.

Off topic: Sarcasm is quite juvenile and rarely ever a good substitute for criticism or debate.

> Illegal is illegal, but it's less immoral if you wait for
> the manufacturers to stop selling products before you move
> in an emulate them. That's what MAME does.

Oh, the hyprocrisy. There are problems with that statement if you are comparing MAME with NeoRagex. First off, AFAIK, NeoRagex only supports games that are no longer being sold. Secondly, MAME emulates pretty much anything that NeoRagex does, so even if there still happens to be any NeoGeo games on the market, then MAME is no better than NeoRagex with regards to your definition of morality.

You make it sound as if using MAME has some sort of artistic value and automatically makes piracy OK while in the same breath you deride other emus for the same thing.

-Wren

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Old 05-04-2005, 03:18 AM   #23
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Default Re: What's your favorite emulator(s)?

> Depends what you mean by 'efficient'. If you mean 'faster',
> then you're probably right. Kega Fusion is a tad slower than
> Gens. But if you've got a half-decent PC, Kega Fusion is
> more accurate than Gens in all areas.

Oh no, not knocking Kega Fusion...it's my Genesis etc emu of choice now. and uh, I was running an hq2x filter at the time. *runs away*


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Old 05-04-2005, 03:25 AM   #24
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Default Re: What's your favorite emulator(s)?

> I
> remember a time when programmers enjoyed pushing systems
> beyond what people believed that they could do, with
> impressive results.

Welcome to the GBA world.

Speaking of that, I can't wait to see what people will do with the DS....the only thing that hasn't really been worked out to a huge degree yet is the audio...it's known only how to do streaming audio. Well, the wireless is pretty unkown from the DS side also, although they've got PCs communicating with the DS just fine.

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Old 05-04-2005, 05:15 AM   #25
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Default Re: What's your favorite emulator(s)?

> I'm not talking about adding hacks, I'm talking about
> optimising code.

The code usually is optimised to a decent degree. Especially if getting full speed on a decent PC isn't possible (AFAIK, some of the really 'heavy' drivers have dynamic recompilers now). But when 1Ghz is already more than enough, there's really not much point. I don't think any of the MAMEdevs have PCs that slow, and not many other people do either.

> See above. You might also want to see this.

It should be noted that .kkreiger gets very unpredictable results on different PCs, or even with different video card drivers on the same PC due to that way that it works. MAMEdev already rejected hardware rendering for that exact reason. Thanks to that, MAME operates very consistantly on different PCs and even on other platforms.

To make MAME smaller, you'd have to start eliminating code. Once you do that, accuracy suffers. The explicit purpose of MAME is to emulate hardware as accurately as possible. Sacraficing it just to get a smaller binary for some whiners would be totally contrary to this. I believe there's also a fair bit of commentary in the drivers to make it more readable so improving the driver is easy.

> Perhaps I misunderstood your original statement, but it
> sounded to me like you were excluding MAME from the "kiddie
> warez" realm while condemning NeoRagex (and other MAME
> variants) to it in your last post. I merely pointed out the
> flaw in that argument.

'Kiddie warez' is generally defined as pirating stuff that is still being actively marketed and sold. Emulation of a game that was only released last week would be a prime example. Watch the MAME forum for a while and see what happens to those sort of people on it.

> Off topic: Sarcasm is quite juvenile and rarely ever a good
> substitute for criticism or debate.

It's good for hammering a point across when you get the impression that the other person just isn't getting it.

> Oh, the hyprocrisy. There are problems with that statement
> if you are comparing MAME with NeoRagex. First off, AFAIK,
> NeoRagex only supports games that are no longer being sold.

Your information is incorrect. While only NeoRAGEx is only designed to run games that were around when it was, the last binary would try to load any game placed in the ROMs folder. If you put Samurai Shodown V Special in there, it'd take a stab it it. MAME would not.

> Secondly, MAME emulates pretty much anything that NeoRagex
> does, so even if there still happens to be any NeoGeo games
> on the market, then MAME is no better than NeoRagex with
> regards to your definition of morality.

As stated above, false. The official MAME binary does not emulate games that are still being sold. The King of Fighters 2002 and Metal Slug 4 made it in specifically because SNK-Playmore stopped selling them.

> You make it sound as if using MAME has some sort of artistic
> value and automatically makes piracy OK while in the same
> breath you deride other emus for the same thing.

It does have artistic value compared to NeoRAGEx. The accuracy is worlds better.

You're the one who can't seem to see any difference between emulating games that are no longer sold, and emulating those that are still actively sold first-hand. The law may not see a difference, but most people with half a brain can.

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Old 05-04-2005, 09:10 AM   #26
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Default Re: What's your favorite emulator(s)?

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> if getting full speed on a decent PC isn't possible (AFAIK,
> some of the really 'heavy' drivers have dynamic recompilers
> now). But when 1Ghz is already more than enough, there's
> really not much point. I don't think any of the MAMEdevs
> have PCs that slow, and not many other people do either.

<hr></blockquote>

That's part of the problem. Instead of retooling the software, you're perfectly happy to bump system requirements up. Just because people have fast PC's doesn't mean that code efficiency should be tossed out of the window.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> It should be noted that .kkreiger gets very unpredictable
> results on different PCs, or even with different video card
> drivers on the same PC due to that way that it works.

<hr></blockquote>

That isn't the reason that I brought up .kkrieger. It's a great example of modern day code optimisation, that's all.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> MAMEdev already rejected hardware rendering for that exact
> reason. Thanks to that, MAME operates very consistantly on
> different PCs and even on other platforms.

<hr></blockquote>

So on one side you aren't concerned with MAME running on older PC's, yet in another you are concerned that it run on older video hardware? Could you be any more ambivalent about this?

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> To make MAME smaller, you'd have to start eliminating code.
> Once you do that, accuracy suffers. The explicit purpose of
> MAME is to emulate hardware as accurately as possible.

<hr></blockquote>

That is an admirable goal, however I doubt that code would have to be removed, just altered.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> Sacraficing it just to get a smaller binary for some whiners
> would be totally contrary to this. I believe there's also a
> fair bit of commentary in the drivers to make it more
> readable so improving the driver is easy.

<hr></blockquote>

I really couldn't care less about what the future holds for MAME, I am only stating my reasons for not using it. The thread will also show that I didn't even bring MAME into the discussion, it was just jammed in my face. I seldom even play games.

Code comments don't affect the compiled size.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> 'Kiddie warez' is generally defined as pirating stuff that
> is still being actively marketed and sold. Emulation of a
> game that was only released last week would be a prime
> example. Watch the MAME forum for a while and see what
> happens to those sort of people on it.

<hr></blockquote>

I've already concluded that from your last post. Regardless of what you might believe, piracy is piracy. There isn't a lesser form of it.

Now you encourage me to read the MAME forums to see pirates scold other pirates for piracy? That's classic.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> It's good for hammering a point across when you get the
> impression that the other person just isn't getting it.

<hr></blockquote>

No. It isn't. Coming up with a real rebuttal is.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> Your information is incorrect. While only NeoRAGEx is only
> designed to run games that were around when it was, the last
> binary would try to load any game placed in the ROMs folder.
> If you put Samurai Shodown V Special in there, it'd take a
> stab it it. MAME would not.

<hr></blockquote>

I believe that the last NeoRagex binary is a hacked version. That isn't even the one that I use. It'd also be easy enough to modify MAME to do the same.

Besides, there could be other reasons that an emulator allows a user to load something outside of its designated "OK, less illegal game list". Homebrew software for one. Legal ownership of a newer ROM is another.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> As stated above, false. The official MAME binary does not
> emulate games that are still being sold. The King of
> Fighters 2002 and Metal Slug 4 made it in specifically
> because SNK-Playmore stopped selling them.

<hr></blockquote>

If MAME accurately emulates the NeoGeo hardware then yes, it does. Making a change to MAME's source to include those games would be trivial.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> It does have artistic value compared to NeoRAGEx. The
> accuracy is worlds better.

<hr></blockquote>

And that makes it more artistic how? You make it sound as if the NeoRagex author came at the project with the mindset of purposely making it inaccurate.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> You're the one who can't seem to see any difference between
> emulating games that are no longer sold, and emulating those
> that are still actively sold first-hand.

<hr></blockquote>

I'd say that it was very extrasensory of you to know that I'm on the bleeding edge of software piracy if you weren't horribly incorrect.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> The law may not see
> a difference, but most people with half a brain can.

<hr></blockquote>

I guess you'd absolutely know then, huh? (I know, cheap shot . Couldn't resist.)

-Wren

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Old 05-04-2005, 09:35 AM   #27
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Default Re: What's your favorite emulator(s)?

> That's part of the problem. Instead of retooling the
> software, you're perfectly happy to bump system requirements
> up. Just because people have fast PC's doesn't mean that
> code efficiency should be tossed out of the window.

You seem to be taking regular software logic and trying to apply it to an emulator like MAME. Stop it. That's not good and it doesn't work.

> That isn't the reason that I brought up .kkrieger. It's a
> great example of modern day code optimisation, that's all.

I was just stating why that type of code optimisation is totally unaccepable for MAME.

> So on one side you aren't concerned with MAME running on
> older PC's, yet in another you are concerned that it run on
> older video hardware? Could you be any more ambivalent about
> this?

I'm not being ambivalent, you just didn't get what I said. I didn't mean older video hardware, I meant different video hardware. The latest nVidia and ATI cards are not the same thing and behave differently when given the same tasks. Hence, the same game will look different on two different cards. MAME's approach avoids this, meaning the games look the same on all cards.

This approach does mean MAME doesn't require much of a video card, seeing as all that ends up being rendered is a 2D display. But that's a side-effect of the aim for accuracy, not the main goal. If better accuracy was served by having the latest video hardware, MAME would require the very latest.

> That is an admirable goal, however I doubt that code would
> have to be removed, just altered.

Why are you talking to me about this? I'm no programmer. MAME has its own forum, go over there and tell this to MAMEdev themselves.

> I really couldn't care less about what the future holds for
> MAME, I am only stating my reasons for not using it.

I don't see any real reasons not to use MAME, assuming you have a decent PC. The size of the binary is negligable compared to the size of recent HDs and the size of the ROMsets. The speed seems fine from where I am and faster emulators are only usually available for games that already run at full speed. The accuracy is completely unbeatable (mostly thanks to MAMEdev not subscribing to your thinking) making for the best gaming experience possible.

> The thread will also show that I didn't even bring MAME into the
> discussion, it was just jammed in my face. I seldom even
> play games.

Why didn't you say that earlier instead of getting into this lengthy debate then? If you don't want to continue this, stop posting!

> Code comments don't affect the compiled size.

I'm not the most knowledgeable about this anyway.

> I've already concluded that from your last post. Regardless
> of what you might believe, piracy is piracy. There isn't a
> lesser form of it.

Yes there is. Or are you willing to say the playing Pac-Man on MAME is completely equivalent to downloading and playing the very latest GBA games rather than going out and buying them?

> Now you encourage me to read the MAME forums to see pirates
> scold other pirates for piracy? That's classic.

If you hate pirates so much, why are you even here? This is an emulation site, it's inherantly linked to piracy. Since you seem to hate it so much, why not go to a 'clean' forum?

> No. It isn't. Coming up with a real rebuttal is.

All your base are belong to us.

> I believe that the last NeoRagex binary is a hacked version.
> That isn't even the one that I use. It'd also be easy enough
> to modify MAME to do the same.

No, I was talking about NeoRAGEx version 0.6b, which was the latest official version. I tried it back when I had Windows 98 and it was perfectly willing.

> Besides, there could be other reasons that an emulator
> allows a user to load something outside of its designated
> "OK, less illegal game list". Homebrew software for one.
> Legal ownership of a newer ROM is another.

You'd have more backing if there was some sort of serious homebrew scene for the NeoGeo. Unfortunately, there isn't.

> If MAME accurately emulates the NeoGeo hardware then yes, it
> does. Making a change to MAME's source to include those
> games would be trivial.

Making those changes to MAME's source violates the MAME license. That adds an extra layer of illegality to it all.

> And that makes it more artistic how? You make it sound as if
> the NeoRagex author came at the project with the mindset of
> purposely making it inaccurate.

I believe NeoRAGEx was a two-man project. Anyway, it could hardly be expected to be as accurate a MAME. NeoRAGEx was last updated in 1998. MAME is updated pretty much weekly. That doesn't change things though, NeoRAGEx is still horrendously inaccurate.

> I'd say that it was very extrasensory of you to know that
> I'm on the bleeding edge of software piracy if you weren't
> horribly incorrect.

Do you have difficulties with comprehension or are you just being intentionally dense?

I meant your criticise all piracy equally, placing those who want to play obscure classics from the 80s equal with those who download GBA games mere days after they're released. I don't see them as equal and most people here agree.

> I guess you'd absolutely know then, huh? (I know, cheap shot
> . Couldn't resist.)

You have no chance to survive, make your time. Ha ha ha.

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Old 05-04-2005, 11:58 AM   #28
Wren
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Default Re: What's your favorite emulator(s)?

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> You seem to be taking regular software logic and trying to
> apply it to an emulator like MAME. Stop it. That's not good
> and it doesn't work.

<hr></blockquote>

Software is software is software. Emulator or not.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> hardware. The latest nVidia and ATI cards are not the same
> thing and behave differently when given the same tasks.
> Hence, the same game will look different on two different
> cards. MAME's approach avoids this, meaning the games look
> the same on all cards.

<hr></blockquote>

Unless you're using 3D effects, it'll look the same on all cards regardless.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> Why are you talking to me about this? I'm no programmer.

<hr></blockquote>

For the same reason that you told me. If you really have to ask that then you'd probably do well to socialise with people more.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> MAME has its own forum, go over there and tell this to
> MAMEdev themselves.

<hr></blockquote>

Judging from what I've seen of MAME's zealots, I'd rather not.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> I don't see any real reasons not to use MAME, assuming you
> have a decent PC. The size of the binary is negligable
> compared to the size of recent HDs and the size of the
> ROMsets. The speed seems fine from where I am and faster
> emulators are only usually available for games that already

<hr></blockquote>

Already stated. (and no, HDD space isn't the problem)

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> run at full speed. The accuracy is completely unbeatable
> (mostly thanks to MAMEdev not subscribing to your thinking)
> making for the best gaming experience possible.

<hr></blockquote>

Efficiency is complimentary to accuracy. You're trying to say that you can only have one or the other and it's simply not true.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> Why didn't you say that earlier instead of getting into this
> lengthy debate then? If you don't want to continue this,
> stop posting!

<hr></blockquote>

Because earlier I didn't think that this was going to turn into a name calling match.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> Yes there is. Or are you willing to say the playing Pac-Man
> on MAME is completely equivalent to downloading and playing
> the very latest GBA games rather than going out and buying
> them?

<hr></blockquote>

If that justification helps you sleep better at night....

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> If you hate pirates so much, why are you even here? This is
> an emulation site, it's inherantly linked to piracy. Since
> you seem to hate it so much, why not go to a 'clean' forum?

<hr></blockquote>

Never said I hated pirates, but hypocrites are an entirely different matter.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> You'd have more backing if there was some sort of serious
> homebrew scene for the NeoGeo. Unfortunately, there isn't.

<hr></blockquote>

There can't be a homebrew scene without support for it. That'd be consoles and emulators.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> Making those changes to MAME's source violates the MAME
> license. That adds an extra layer of illegality to it all.

<hr></blockquote>

It's not illegal unless you distribute it in that configuration. If someone wants to change a piece of software for personal use, they are allowed to do so.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> I believe NeoRAGEx was a two-man project. Anyway, it could
> hardly be expected to be as accurate a MAME. NeoRAGEx was
> last updated in 1998. MAME is updated pretty much weekly.
> That doesn't change things though, NeoRAGEx is still
> horrendously inaccurate.

<hr></blockquote>

As "horrendously inaccurate" as it is, It sure works better than MAME does for NeoGeo games.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> Do you have difficulties with comprehension or are you just
> being intentionally dense?

<hr></blockquote>

Seems to me like you're the one lacking comprehension ability. You keep sticking words in my mouth.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

> I meant your criticise all piracy equally, placing those who
> want to play obscure classics from the 80s equal with those
> who download GBA games mere days after they're released. I
> don't see them as equal and most people here agree.

<hr></blockquote>

First, see above.

Piracy is piracy. You either pirate software or you don't. I never said that I disapproved. Again, that was completely a fabrication of your imagination.

-Wren

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Old 05-04-2005, 12:24 PM   #29
Wren
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Default Re: What's your favorite emulator(s)?

I gave my GBA to my friend's son so I'll probably never get to see some of the cool developments for it.

DS and PSP projects should be interesting to follow in the coming years though.

-Wren

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Old 05-04-2005, 03:51 PM   #30
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Default Re: What's your favorite emulator(s)?

> There can't be a homebrew scene without support for it.
> That'd be consoles and emulators.

well, emulators aren't neccesarilly required for homebrew development, although, for example, it is true that the early availability of emulators supported GBA homebrew quite a bit (as well as piracy).

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