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Old 05-13-2009, 02:03 PM   #11
Lillymon
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in b4 lillymon rant
I already said my piece in the linked Slashdot article, and that's all I ever plan to say about this.
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Old 05-14-2009, 01:20 PM   #12
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There's two threads about this on Romhacking.net and people there seemed to notice things that made it look like the C+D is fake, like for example there's no sig or name from the person that signs the e-mail.

The Crimson Echoes project was suppose to be released at the end of the month so it might be some kind of silly hype/advertising of the hack, but the team are saying it's real.
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:36 PM   #13
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There's two threads about this on Romhacking.net and people there seemed to notice things that made it look like the C+D is fake, like for example there's no sig or name from the person that signs the e-mail.

The Crimson Echoes project was suppose to be released at the end of the month so it might be some kind of silly hype/advertising of the hack, but the team are saying it's real.
On Chrono Compendium (the only site who's info on this I think I would trust without much question) the leader of the hack project said that they actually talked to Squeenix and it is indeed a real C+D.

I think that the people who keep saying how it's a fake letter to drum up advertising or some such thing are just wishful thinkers. I mean, it wouldn't even be the first time Square-Enix has done something like this. It isn't like no one has ever hacked Chrono Trigger either (Prophet's Guile being one example). Heck, Temporal Flux makes a lot of things much easier than they would be otherwise.
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:21 PM   #14
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That's about where I'm at...I kind of want a leak, but at the same time I'd hate it if anything happened to the people who made it as a result.
After reading more on it (including the actual C&D letter) at the compendium site, I'm now really hoping no leak happens (unless SE has a change of heart). SE's lawyers have the hackers' names and addresses, and have stated that they'll be held personally liable for any leak, to the tune of up to a $150,000 fine, plus any possible criminal charges.

It's a sad situation, but there's no reasonable choice but to comply. I hope all beta testers cooperate, because otherwise they'll throw the hackers into a legal nightmare.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:19 PM   #15
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After reading more on it (including the actual C&D letter) at the compendium site, I'm now really hoping no leak happens (unless SE has a change of heart). SE's lawyers have the hackers' names and addresses, and have stated that they'll be held personally liable for any leak, to the tune of up to a $150,000 fine, plus any possible criminal charges.

It's a sad situation, but there's no reasonable choice but to comply. I hope all beta testers cooperate, because otherwise they'll throw the hackers into a legal nightmare.
The worst nightmare would be a torrent. EACH copy would result in $150.000 fine... So let's hope people stay cool.
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Old 05-15-2009, 02:04 AM   #16
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Just like, what was it called, Chrono Break? Dang.

Trigger needs a real sequal!! And no, Cross doesn't count.
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Old 05-15-2009, 01:00 PM   #17
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The worst nightmare would be a torrent. EACH copy would result in $150,000 fine... So let's hope people stay cool.
No, each copy *could* result as a count in a lawsuit *requesting* $150,000.

Personally, I hope a leak occurs, Square Enix sues the hackers and they have the balls to face them in court and fight it. Of course, that will never happen because the emulation community has time-and-time again proven they have very little in the way of balls when it comes to legal challenges. (Which is odd, because one of the biggest complaints about the ROM hacking scene is an overabundance of testicles.)

Maybe I'll start on a little hack of Chrono Trigger myself, despite hating the game.
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Old 05-15-2009, 04:54 PM   #18
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not only request $150K but the fact that there are free beta's already released prior to the letter has to be taken into account.

If a beta where released that was downloaded to someone the person receiving said letter and there was no way to tell by a normal person any of the people that downloaded the beta then the person who made the beta could not be held responsible for anything release PRIOR to the letter.

Also IF the lawyers representing DO NOT actively try to find and present all people that downloaded the beta with letters then the original party could not be held responsible for an unknown person doing something beyond their control, especially if said letter was given out AFTER original beta's were dispersed.

Now here's the fun part.

If someone whos ID is unknown by the original hacker, has a beta unknown to the original hacker, that was in their possession prior to the letter being received then legally since they have not received a letter then they could complete and release a final version and the original developer/letter receiver could not be held responsible for said release. The reason is because the lawyers sending the letter must have found out about the beta online snooping or from a person being a rat. Now when they realized the beta was out and they didn't go out and get warrants for all IP addresses of people downloading it, then send all beta downloaders letters informing them to destroy the beta and all copies and not to release it, copy it , ect, then they CANNOT hold the original hacker responsible in any way.

This letter now that I think about it can only be inforced if sent to all people in possession of a copy and all copies are in a known location or can be found and lettersender makes a full and I mean full attempt to find every copy in existence.

Basically it all means you can't be held responsible for an unknown persons actions or lack of. Especially if said unknown person was in possession of a beta prior to receiving the letter. That's just common law and common sense.

Just basically back down and if anything send back letter saying beta has been removed from site and all people working or beta's PC's, BUT, haha I love this part.
Also state a beta was released prior to receipt of this letter to the public and you have no way to know who downloaded it and have no way to control their actions.

The above statement just told them you have complied to the best of your ability but cannot be held responsible for release by an unknown 3rd party and I'ld also make a copy for a lawyer also.

Now when they send a letter saying you're in trouble for release of a beta you bring original letter, your letter, and this follow up to a lawyer. The lawyer will ask if the other lawyers had found all IP's "like in P2P lawsuits" and then sent letters to all persons downloading the original beta telling them not to distribute and to destroy the beta. If they had not then they cannot hold original hacker responsible since they themselves were negligent in contacting ALL people in possession of said beta.

I know it's long winded but anyone with law experience will tell you it's basically sound in it's reasoning. Sure they could TRY to sue but unless the judge is either stupid or paid off they are going to lose if they take it to court.

So remember if you comply fully and immediately you cannot be held responsible for crimes commited by an unknown 3rd party. Any court that would hold you responsible is in fact breaking the law and the judge should be removed from the bench.

Last edited by shawn; 05-15-2009 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 05-15-2009, 06:32 PM   #19
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Personally, I hope a leak occurs, Square Enix sues the hackers and they have the balls to face them in court and fight it. Of course, that will never happen because the emulation community has time-and-time again proven they have very little in the way of balls when it comes to legal challenges. (Which is odd, because one of the biggest complaints about the ROM hacking scene is an overabundance of testicles.)
It's not a question of guts-- it wouldn't make much sense to fight it in court, because they would have zero chance of winning, at least in terms of a determination of whether or not it constitutes copyright infringement. (IANAL, so I don't know enough to speculate on what damages would actually be awarded.) Aside from any judgements, there would be lawyer fees. I can't fault people for not wanting their worlds turned upside-down for the sake of a hobby project. I mean, I get that you probably feel that a principle is at stake here, but who would we be to insist that they have some sort of responsibility to bear the burden of such a battle, that they have to be the ones to martyr themselves for the cause?

I don't like the fact that modern copyright law is so restrictive that some kid theoretically can, under the law, be sued for a dumb little Harry Potter fanfic he put up on the web, but fighting such things through the courts is futile. According to the copyright laws that have become standard around the world, during the copyright period of a work, the cration of derivative works, except for certain special exceptions like parody, is not permissible without the copyright-holder's consent. If that's to change, it'll have to be through legislative action, but I don't expect any signifficant changes on that score in our lifetimes, unfortunately.

In some places, like Japan, enforcement tends to be lax for certain type of derivative works (perhaps most notably for doujinshi comics), but in the end it's still up to the copyright holder whether to pursue the matter or not.

I hope this post made sense; I typed this all while feeling kind of dizzy and light-headed. Oh noes, swine flu! =P
Seriously though, it's probably just a result of not getting enough sleep this week.
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Old 05-16-2009, 04:47 PM   #20
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I personally believe the C&D is a bunch of BS, since they haven't been able to produce any contact information or the letter stating the C&D. Nothing more than a ploy to stir up some drama about the project. Perhaps they are not skilled enough and/or not able to release the project and decided to close the project with some fake drama.

Mind you, there have been others to do this sort of thing in the past.
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