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Old 12-12-2004, 08:06 AM   #11
Lenophis
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Default Re: Let's break it down.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Yes, I do believe that the child has rights, and that we should enforce anti-abortion laws.

<hr></blockquote>
I sense ego... read on.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Do I believe this because I'm a Christian? Probably. But that doesn't make it a religious issue, especially when abortion isn't explicitly mentioned in the Bible. To believe that abortion is morally wrong in every way, and still support choice, is to know something is evil and then ignore it.

<hr></blockquote>
You say it isn't a religious issue, yet you reference a religious "cause" of fighting "evil." And no, it is not everyone's sole purpose to fight "evil" just because you say so.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The inaction of good men when they know something is evil is a horrible thing.

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Errr, men? Good job singling out a gender.

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Let's try to find our root disagreement, and let's assume we all mean for the best, we just have different ways of going about it. I believe the root disagreement is the value of life at the pre-birth stage. Disagree?

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Perhaps. The problem is, you probably believe humans to be sentient from second 1. Hmm, and after some Google searching, I haven't found any clear cut definitions of a "sentient being." It would seem that it is in the eye of the beholder, which is bad.

What I'm getting at, is that you want something gone for selfish reasons. You are going on about what you want, and nothing else. This issue is bigger than you or me. If you want it abolished for you, then you might as well quit now, because this isn't about you. You need to think of everyone, and I mean everyone. And no, the kids aren't everyone, you need to think of the mothers and fathers too. So far, you haven't displayed any sense of that.

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Old 12-12-2004, 08:08 AM   #12
icenine0
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Default Re: Let's break it down.

Danoz, as long as there's freedom of information, you cannot enforce 'morality'. You can make an act illegal, but you cannot control a man's mind. People will do the research and come to their own views about these issues, as they do today, and be desirous of their preferred circumstance regardless of the one thrown upon them.

Employing their minds and hearts to their own satisfaction, nearly half of the people in this country believe in a woman's right to choose. Our Supreme Court agreed with them on this issue. These people are not going away, Danoz. They've made their own decision, without you, without the government. You cannot change their minds, you cannot change their hearts.

In the event that they're shoved, and oppressed, and illegalized, and kicked about... well, they might just leave and start their own country, touting their ideals with no overall change caused by your stupid, stupid laws.

Wow, does that sound like a familiar situation? Circa 1776, maybe?

Live with them. Either over here, or over there. They are not going away.

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Old 12-12-2004, 08:53 AM   #13
Mikey
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Default Re: Let's break it down.

> I'm especially tired of being treated like a close-minded asshole
> who wants to "force" religion on others. This is wrong.

You have a point with that statement. No one deserves to be demonized simply for stating their beliefs, though it's a double-edged sword because that would mean you also can't demonize them for disagreeing with your own views. The problem is that the debate is about life and death, and there seems to be no room for simply accepting one another's views, because possible lives are at stake.

Those in favor of abortion would lose a right if it were banned. A right that usually isn't even something they ever need to use.

To those opposed to abortion, there's a lot more at stake than a simple right. At stake is the entire basis of their morality, which states that it's wrong to kill another human being. If this line is crossed, they think something should be done about it, but in the case of abortions, nothing is done. And so it understandably gets them a lot more upset than the pro-choicers, because more is at stake for them.

The abortion debate really does come down to a question of sentience though. At what point does life really begin? It's not something that you can google for and find the answer, it's not something that can be decided by how many weeks after conception a heart starts beating. It comes down to one's personal views on what makes a life a life.... conscious thought, or the potential for conscious thought. Perhaps that question should be debated first?

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Old 12-12-2004, 09:06 AM   #14
UncleOral
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Default Re: Let's break it down.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>


You have a point with that statement. No one deserves to be
demonized simply for stating their beliefs, though it's a
double-edged sword because that would mean you also can't
demonize them for disagreeing with your own views. The
problem is that the debate is about life and death, and
there seems to be no room for simply accepting one another's
views, because possible lives are at stake.

Those in favor of abortion would lose a right if it were
banned. A right that usually isn't even something they ever
need to use.

To those opposed to abortion, there's a lot more at stake
than a simple right. At stake is the entire basis of their
morality, which states that it's wrong to kill another human
being. If this line is crossed, they think something should
be done about it, but in the case of abortions, nothing is
done. And so it understandably gets them a lot more upset
than the pro-choicers, because more is at stake for them.

The abortion debate really does come down to a question of
sentience though. At what point does life really begin? It's
not something that you can google for and find the answer,
it's not something that can be decided by how many weeks
after conception a heart starts beating. It comes down to
one's personal views on what makes a life a life....
conscious thought, or the potential for conscious thought.
Perhaps that question should be debated first?


<hr></blockquote>


I like you, can we be friends? =)

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Old 12-12-2004, 10:19 AM   #15
Mikey
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Default Re: Let's break it down.

> In reply to:
> I like you, can we be friends? =)

Sure, as long as it doesn't mean I have to take sides. <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>
I'm usually right in the middle of debates like this. I try to relate to both sides of the argument.

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Old 12-12-2004, 10:35 AM   #16
UncleOral
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Default Re: Let's break it down.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>


Sure, as long as it doesn't mean I have to take sides.
I'm usually right in the middle of debates like this. I try
to relate to both sides of the argument.


<hr></blockquote>

Yes, that's the impression I got, and that's why I like you.

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Old 12-12-2004, 01:54 PM   #17
Fla Flash
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Default Re: Let's break it down.

Well put IceNine0.
The problem here is neither side will go away or give up. This whole issue is a no win situation.
My daughter ,who is now 8, was born out of wedlock. I was frightened at being a father again (at 40 it scares you even more), but the last thing that crossed anyone's mind was abortion. I wouldn't have approved.
While I would never ask anyone to have an abortion, it's not my place to tell them they can't. Nor is it anyone else's here.
I honestly wish that this one issue, which splits the country pretty badly, would come to a close. But that's just a pipe dream.
If Roe v. Wade is overturned, it'll be appealed. The Republicans will claim a moral victory. Until it's undone.
This is a potential long term circle.

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Old 12-12-2004, 02:22 PM   #18
thegodofhellfire
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Default Re: Let's break it down.

You keep repeating yourself as if those who disagree will finally understand, if you only state your position one last time. We understand your reasoning, Danoz. We just don't buy it.

<P ID="signature"></P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by thegodofhellfire on 12/12/04 09:29 AM.</FONT></P>
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Old 12-12-2004, 02:30 PM   #19
Fla Flash
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Default Re: Let's break it down.

I agree. but....as far as painting you an 'asshole', I don't think that's the case.
Dan, you and everyone else here has a right to state their views and opinions about anything they want, (unless they're directly racist or indecent *pornography*) but what no one should be doing is shoving their ideals down other peoples throats nor belittling them for their beliefs.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, is good enough around here to pass judgement on anyone else. Well, except SwampGas.
I'm not good enough to pass judgement on you or anyone (unless you break board rules). Nor are you imbued with a similar power.
We're all individuals and we all believe differently. You've every right to state your beliefs and opinions. If they're unpopular, expect a little feedback.

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Old 12-12-2004, 03:24 PM   #20
king killa
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Default Re: Let's break it down.

before 12 weeks or so, the baby does not have a brain, and therefore cannot be seen as a child with rights.

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