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Old 03-17-2008, 06:39 AM   #1
puduhead
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Default I don't have to add any subjective conjecture

I don't have to add any subjective conjecture when Nobel Prize winning economists write books like The Three Trillion Dollar war.Â* (saw their 75min book review / press conference on CSPAN2 [can't wait to read the book]).

Americans, your current government lies to you about the most significant issues facing human existence on multiple levels.Â* One can only imagine, with an agenda like that, where the line is drawn?

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Old 03-17-2008, 06:52 AM   #2
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Default Re: I don't have to add any subjective conjecture

I haven't read the book (although it looks interesting), but I think the real reasons for the war go something like this:

1. America needs to control oil.
2. There's a lot of oil in the Middle East.
3. There are a lot of hostile nations that will control Middle Eastern oil if the US doesn't.
4. There's no oil in Afghanistan.
5. There's a lot of oil in Iraq.
6. Establish a sympathetic government in Iraq and continue support for Israel to ensure US dominance in the Middle East.
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:28 AM   #3
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Default Re: I don't have to add any subjective conjecture

> I haven't read the book (although it looks interesting), but
> I think the real reasons for the war go something like this:

You didn't mention the one big reason the U.S. gov stated for going to war in Iraq: To bring Democracy. And then in the same notion, our democratic government uses far less than transparency in outlining our taxpayer expenditures on this effort.

Regardless of "real" reasons, we cannot rely on our government bringing "real" democracy based on this level of subversion towards the American public that presumably rules this country.

We all collectively need to quit being apologetic towards our government's actions and expect results based on the democracy this country was founded on, especially when conquering other nations to further "our way of freedom". It's a slippery slope far more significant than the price of oil. From my non-intellectual non-establishment perspective, i don't care if everyone in America has to start walking and biking to work. But lets not abandon the very tenants of our country because some consumer option is apparent, even when very significant and long-reaching actions are hidden.

We have a right to be informed, and when we are purposely misinformed, we should always be outraged and expect that our government has failed us, not unlike any other failed country we presume to assert our "correct" ways upon.
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Old 03-17-2008, 08:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: I don't have to add any subjective conjecture

Another way to put what I am saying (although I still would not agree with the means):

If the U.S. government were to have come out and officially stated: "Hey, we are willing to spend any amount of your money (that we don't even have) and sacrifice any amount of human lives to secure this oil", I would at least feel better about our system. That would at least put the burden on the American public to have a real opinion as to the goings on of the war.

As it stands, your average American takes their information from heavily filtered sources which stem from an equally filtered source, in this case, the alleged numbers regarding our cost expenditures in this war. There is not much room left over for rationality of the masses.

Democracy or disaster?
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Old 03-17-2008, 09:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: I don't have to add any subjective conjecture

Yeah, it's a damned mess and they pulled some Machiavellian shit (I also think they had to have a pretext to attack Iraq -- "we want their oil" just wouldn't do), but the establishment is so established and entrenched that nothing short of anarchy and revolution (hopefully not soon) will change anything.

But I'll tell you something ... I don't blame the Bush administration as much as I used to. We're so comfortable here in America sometimes that we've forgotten that morality is a luxury and, out there in nature, it's kill-or-be-killed-may-the-biggest-dick-win. I'm sure there are a lot of self-interested oil contracts, dirty money and greed involved, whatever, but the fact is, we need that energy and if we don't control it, someone else will use it to hold us hostage. That's it. It's either take it or lose it to someone with less scruples like Russia or China. Personally, all I can do is give the world my best wishes and hope we discover free, clean energy soon.

Europe is complacent, appeasing and getting infiltrated and run over by Islamic fascists (scary fuckers) who want to throw rugs over womens heads, lash you for not pointing your ass west five times a day, and riot and burn down buildings if you draw a smiley face and write Muhammed under it. A clash of civilizations is coming between our western, democratic traditions and Islamofascism/Sharia and the US is the only banhammer standing in defense of freedom.

So, yeah, it's tempting to be saints and hope Islamic extremists stop blowing shit up and give us decent oil prices, but -- I don't think they will. I think they'll see America as weak and screw us for all we're worth just like they're doing to France and Europe. That's why we're over there blowing shit up on some flimsy pretext -- control oil and preemptive strike against Islamofascism. Will it work? I don't know; maybe we've messed up too badly -- but I think the threats the Republicans mention are definitely real.
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Old 03-17-2008, 10:29 AM   #6
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Default Re: I don't have to add any subjective conjecture

Maybe so. You make great points. And like i said, i'm no scholar to rebuttal with pure establishment logic. As for my conscious tho... as an artist, as a now family man, and a purist that truly only cares about things that are available in a 2nd world nation, i just don't give a fuck. I feel that America is so full of itself, its falsehoods, its fake needs, its bureaucratic deceptive dependencies. I would be lying to say I wouldn't mind if the country was dropped to its knees. And that's not to say I wish some extremely backwards religious idiots from the middle east to take over - i don't. I think all organized religion is stupid, and at the very least, has no place in organized government.

But beyond that, i'm very apathetic, and so accustomed to living relatively basic, that i have no problems whatsoever in majority populations like America being woken up to a reality that would permeate their very core of foolish consumer agenda. I almost wish it would happen. As opposed as I am to any stupid Muslim asserting their brainwashed ways on our culture, i'm almost equally opposed to foolish consumers living a life of presupposed comfort in the face of lies, and money that this country does not have.
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: I don't have to add any subjective conjecture

We could easily be dropped to our knees right now. You realize with most of our military and national guard overseas any country with a decent size military could take us over very quickly and with the way the governments been being run most people wouldn't give a good shit since it wouldn't change much. Hell the only ones that would lose out would be the rich and the welfare population "the ones that don't want to work" since everyone else busts ass daily for virtually nothing.
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Old 03-21-2008, 01:21 AM   #8
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Default Re: I don't have to add any subjective conjecture

> 1. America needs to control oil.
> 2. There's a lot of oil in the Middle East.
> 3. There are a lot of hostile nations that will control Middle Eastern oil if the US doesn't.
> 4. There's no oil in Afghanistan.
> 5. There's a lot of oil in Iraq.
> 6. Establish a sympathetic government in Iraq and continue support for Israel to ensure US dominance in the Middle East.

You forgot #7. Put more money in the federal reserve's pockets, which is the biggest reason.
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Old 03-21-2008, 04:53 AM   #9
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Default Re: I don't have to add any subjective conjecture

> where the line is drawn?>

That's simple. When the US economy implodes. We are the biggest consumer country in the world and when the rich aren't making money because there is no one to buy their crap that is when all these wars end. You can't fight a war without the money to pay the troops or buy the weapons since the tax base will also implode. You'll also see a lot of large corporations jump ship and relocate to other countries since they will be asked to pay more taxes to make up for all the lost workers taxes. I don't think for one minute that even a small percentage of these corporations put true love of country before money, not a chance.

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Old 03-22-2008, 09:28 PM   #10
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Default Re: I don't have to add any subjective conjecture

> You forgot #7. Put more money in the federal reserve's
> pockets, which is the biggest reason.

LOL@!@!!!

What money? Let's be clear: This country is bankrupt. Everything we are doing now, especially this war, is on credit, 40% from overseas.

House of cards.

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