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Old 07-23-2004, 02:14 AM   #11
Goku
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Default Re: Sandy Berger's "honest mistake"

Okay, I will give you an analogy. In importance, these "fumbled" documents are as important as worrying about a scratch in your 9 year old banged up beater of a car when your jobless and are going to be evicted the next day from your home.

Danoz, questions do need to be asked, but the RIGHT questions need to be asked. You got a CIA that fucked up royally. The 9/11 commission will report on the administration conviently after the election. You have people dying in a war that is breeding more terrorism. You have North Korea with nukes. You have pakistan selling nuke making material to terroist states.

I am not misdirecting you. Do not spin it as such. The reality is the Berger issue is a leak. Reports state that both the Justice and Administration have known about the investigation for quite some time. Is is just pure coincidence that it is leaked so close to election time?

There are much bigger more important issues at hand than a non issue about a few classified documents missing and a person who by all news reports is cooperating with the Justice Department to get them back.

Your country is in flames Danoz. (I know, a little melodramatic)

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Old 07-23-2004, 02:48 AM   #12
Danoz
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Default Re: Sandy Berger's "honest mistake"

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Okay, I will give you an analogy. In importance, these "fumbled" documents are as important as worrying about a scratch in your 9 year old banged up beater of a car when your jobless and are going to be evicted the next day from your home.

<hr></blockquote>
How do you know that the documents are no need for concern? If it was important enough that this man would put his entire job and respect on the line (let alone stuff the documents down his pants!) I think there is something extremely suspicious about this. You're saying they aren't important, but this is pure speculation.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Danoz, questions do need to be asked, but the RIGHT questions need to be asked. You got a CIA that fucked up royally. The 9/11 commission will report on the administration conviently after the election. You have people dying in a war that is breeding more terrorism. You have North Korea with nukes. You have pakistan selling nuke making material to terroist states.

<hr></blockquote>
What do these things have to do with Berger! That's the issue I'm talking about, the questions I'm referring to are ones regarding that. Intelligence is something the commission has seriously looked into-- and as for the report on the President, even the commission has stated that the president never lied-- only believed the intelligence he was given.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I am not misdirecting you. Do not spin it as such.

<hr></blockquote>
What spin?! You're talking about North Korea and the CIA in a thread about Berger and documents. There is a clear misdirection here, how can you call this spin?
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The reality is the Berger issue is a leak. Reports state that both the Justice and Administration have known about the investigation for quite some time. Is is just pure coincidence that it is leaked so close to election time?

<hr></blockquote>
You can talk about the timing all you want, there's always something near ANY big breaking story that cause people to consider it intelligent placement. Hell, when president Bush went to Iraq people said that he only went to dwarf Hilary Clinton's visit! I'm not saying that the timing isn't an issue, I'm saying that all you (and others) want to do is talk about timing, completely ignoring Berger and the documents. Honestly, I find top secret documents in pants more suspicious than the timing of the break.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

There are much bigger more important issues at hand than a non issue about a few classified documents missing and a person who by all news reports is cooperating with the Justice Department to get them back.

<hr></blockquote>
Wouldn't you if you got caught? I think there are questions that need answered about the subject

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Your country is in flames Danoz. (I know, a little melodramatic)

<hr></blockquote>
You do realize that you're telling people to ignore this because other problems exist. When somebody commits murder you don't say, "Forget about him, there's terrorists out there!"

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Old 07-23-2004, 02:26 PM   #13
IceWolf20
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Default Re: Sandy Berger's "honest mistake"

> You do realize that you're telling people to ignore this
> because other problems exist. When somebody commits murder
> you don't say, "Forget about him, there's terrorists out
> there!"

Wow...murder is now equated to stealing classified documents.

Lets get one thing straight right now....what Berger did was wrong, and nothing can change that. He got caught, he is and has been investigated, he's cooperating. Why is it more of an issue than this? He stole something, and got busted, and is being dealt with....can we move on Righty? I can't speculate as to what problems this may have caused b/c I dont know what was no those papers, but you'd think that after this long of a time, and it gets leaked right now is just stupid. Yes the people have a right to know what has happened, but if you are serious about it, DO IT WHEN IT HAPPENS, not waiting forever to time it. Its unfortunate that the Democrats dont have any secret damaging info that will hurt the president....oh wait, all that SHIT just got released by the commission.

But focusing on topic....was Berger wrong...YES. Was it wrong to give such a bullshit excuse....YES. At least he's making an effort to correct his shady actions....which is more than can be said for ANYONE in the Bush administration. Everyone in government is a lying sack of shit....its just the degree to which of a liar they are and how many people get hurt and/or fucked over from their actions. I don't mean to be one sided here....but the Republicans (especially the WH Admn) is winning in the lying resulting in fucking people over category over the last four years.....and based on their track record, I don't think it would behove the American people to repeat this trend any further. Berger's a douche bag....and whatever went down will probably be figured out, and more likely than not, it'll be nothing like the smoking gun the Republicans are hoping for....like Saddam giving an handy to Clinton while getting a rim job from Monica.

Make a deal about it....but not a big deal. Take appropriate action against these thefts of classified documents, and move on. The Republicans are wrong for blowing this out of proportion, and the Democrats are wrong for trying to dismiss it as nothing important. End of story.


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Old 07-23-2004, 08:51 PM   #14
Danoz
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Default Re: Sandy Berger's "honest mistake"

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Wow...murder is now equated to stealing classified documents.

<hr></blockquote>
I didn't equate anything, I compared scenarios to make a point.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Lets get one thing straight right now....what Berger did was wrong, and nothing can change that. He got caught, he is and has been investigated, he's cooperating. Why is it more of an issue than this? He stole something, and got busted, and is being dealt with....can we move on Righty? I can't speculate as to what problems this may have caused b/c I dont know what was no those papers, but you'd think that after this long of a time, and it gets leaked right now is just stupid. Yes the people have a right to know what has happened, but if you are serious about it, DO IT WHEN IT HAPPENS, not waiting forever to time it.

<hr></blockquote>
We don't even know who leaked the story or how it leaked. And the story just broke, and we just started asking the questions... why are you already urging those in protest to move on?
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Its unfortunate that the Democrats dont have any secret damaging info that will hurt the president....oh wait, all that SHIT just got released by the commission.

<hr></blockquote>
The commission did an excellent job. Did you even read the report?

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

But focusing on topic....was Berger wrong...YES. Was it wrong to give such a bullshit excuse....YES. At least he's making an effort to correct his shady actions....which is more than can be said for ANYONE in the Bush administration. Everyone in government is a lying sack of shit....its just the degree to which of a liar they are and how many people get hurt and/or fucked over from their actions. I don't mean to be one sided here....but the Republicans (especially the WH Admn) is winning in the lying resulting in fucking people over category over the last four years.....and based on their track record, I don't think it would behove the American people to repeat this trend any further.

<hr></blockquote>
As the commission has stated, the administration hasn't lied. I really think a lot of people owe apologies about this, but we won't get them.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Berger's a douche bag....and whatever went down will probably be figured out, and more likely than not, it'll be nothing like the smoking gun the Republicans are hoping for....like Saddam giving an handy to Clinton while getting a rim job from Monica.

<hr></blockquote>
Republicans certainly aren't "hoping" for a smoking gun, here... we just want to know the truth while others try to push this aside-- dismissing that action as "sloppy". If this IS nothing, I'll be relieved.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Make a deal about it....but not a big deal.

<hr></blockquote>
I'm not, I'm just saying that the questions should be answered.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Take appropriate action against these thefts of classified documents, and move on. The Republicans are wrong for blowing this out of proportion, and the Democrats are wrong for trying to dismiss it as nothing important. End of story.

<hr></blockquote>
Well, it's certainly not the "end of story", and to say it is is to "dismiss it as nothing important".


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Old 07-23-2004, 09:05 PM   #15
IceWolf20
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Default Re: Sandy Berger's "honest mistake"

> I didn't equate anything, I compared scenarios to make a
> point.

Eh....shaky, but I'll give that one to you.

> We don't even know who leaked the story or how it leaked.
> And the story just broke, and we just started asking the
> questions... why are you already urging those in protest to
> move on?

I'm not asking the investigators to move on about it....all im saying is people need to get over it....like everything else in politics, everyone is more concerned about making each other bad, rather than solving problems. The people it concerns, and the people investigating SHOULD pay very close attention to this and take it very seriously. But as for now, until some answers are ascertained, people need to get over it being such a "scandalous" event. It's not scandalous....its fucking stupid....why would someone do that? I hope they find out why, and give us an answer as to why it happened, and THEN I can be upset or not.


> The commission did an excellent job. Did you even read the
> report?

Yeah, downloaded it yesterday.

> As the commission has stated, the administration hasn't
> lied. I really think a lot of people owe apologies about
> this, but we won't get them.

Oh yeah...that's right. It was all the intelligence community's fault. So much for fact checking <img src=smilies/upeyes.gif>
I'm not going to apologize to the White House for calling them liars when all they're doing is passing the buck. From my persepctive, even if they didn't think they were lying...they still were. They should've known whether or not what they were saying was true or not....rather than taking the CIA's word for it. Ignorance has never been an excuse, and I'm not going to allow it to be one now. (But here in lies another argument as to whether or not the WH should have to check facts since its the intelligence community's responsibility to get good intel...in either case, I don't absolve the WH from guilt).

> Republicans certainly aren't "hoping" for a smoking gun,
> here... we just want to know the truth while others try to
> push this aside-- dismissing that action as "sloppy". If
> this IS nothing, I'll be relieved.

I want to know the truth as much as everyone else...but like I said...BOTH sides are blowing this out of proportion.

> In reply to:Make a deal about it....but not a big deal.
> I'm not, I'm just saying that the questions should be
> answered.

Yes, yes they should.

> In reply to:Take appropriate action against these thefts of
> classified documents, and move on. The Republicans are wrong
> for blowing this out of proportion, and the Democrats are
> wrong for trying to dismiss it as nothing important. End of
> story.

> Well, it's certainly not the "end of story", and to say it
> is is to "dismiss it as nothing important".

I disagree....'end of story' means that we as a people dont need to speculate at this point. We can criticize his actions, but we can't scream about coverups, timing, and political motives. Let the investigators do there thing, and get back to us. 'End of story' means get the answers and THEN talk about it.



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Old 07-23-2004, 09:35 PM   #16
IceWolf20
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Default FoxNews just gets better and better

Wow.....more on FoxNews

Sure some of it is probably out of context....but still funny as hell.

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Old 07-24-2004, 02:26 AM   #17
Danoz
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Default Re: Sandy Berger's "honest mistake"

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Oh yeah...that's right. It was all the intelligence community's fault. So much for fact checking
I'm not going to apologize to the White House for calling them liars when all they're doing is passing the buck. From my persepctive, even if they didn't think they were lying...they still were. They should've known whether or not what they were saying was true or not....rather than taking the CIA's word for it. Ignorance has never been an excuse, and I'm not going to allow it to be one now. (But here in lies another argument as to whether or not the WH should have to check facts since its the intelligence community's responsibility to get good intel...in either case, I don't absolve the WH from guilt).

<hr></blockquote>

First of all, it wasn't only the US intelligence that came to the same conclusions (also remember, the same intelligence came to the same conclusions under previous administrations). You're also forgetting something very important here-- when Bush spoke about WMD, he spoke in the name of those who gave him the information. Come now, when the white house needs to do "fact checking", who do you think does it? Our intelligence. The same source that Kerry and Clinton trusted when they made claims regarding WMD in Iraq.

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Old 07-25-2004, 03:44 AM   #18
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Default Re: Sandy Berger's "honest mistake"

BTW, fans of flat mode can go http://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/sho...sb=5&o=0&part=here</a> for a less confusing version of this thread.

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Old 07-26-2004, 05:04 PM   #19
IceWolf20
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Default Re: Sandy Berger's "honest mistake"

> First of all, it wasn't only the US intelligence that came
> to the same conclusions (also remember, the same
> intelligence came to the same conclusions under previous
> administrations). You're also forgetting something very
> important here-- when Bush spoke about WMD, he spoke in the
> name of those who gave him the information.


You're missing my final point here....just becuase they got bad info doesn't absolve them from guilt. Like I said in the previous posts, ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law....and damn, the Bush adminstration broke quite a few internatinoal laws resulting in uncessary loss of life. The "I didnt' know" excuse never has, and will not, apply here. "The buck stops here"....yes, right up at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. does the buck stop. He made a bad decision based on bad intel, and he should be held responsible for it as well those who provided the bad intel.

But the thing is, the Adminsinistration has, and never will be apologetic for their immoral and illegal actions in the internatinoal community. They maintain that what they did was "necessary" to thwart "evil", when that wasn't even their inital excuse to begin with. They got bad intel about WMD, invaded a sovreign nation that had never attacked and/or killed US citizens, killed thousands of Iraqi's and approaching a thousand american soldiers, and rather than saying "oops, sorry about that, we fucked up" they shifted their focus and said it was to "liberate" the Iraqi people from a dictator in the name of the safety of the American and international community. Well...ok, is Saddam gone? Yep. Are those people better off? Depends on who you ask. Are we any safer from Saddam....uhhh, well seeing as we weren't a target to begin with, and now he's in custody, I guess we are "safer" but safer than what really. Now that Saddam's gone and the Iraqi people are "free", does that make us any safer? Hell no. And that was, and is the maintained reason for being there...when the 9/11 commission has completely disprooved that any threat or connection to Al Quada existed.

So, what do we have now? A shit of a mess in Iraq that, now in the light of the commission's finding's, had no bearing at all on anything which the intelligence community and the whitehouse said, no one is saying "oops, sorry". I think that Bush owes the people of this country, and for that matter, the people of this world that he has ignorantly and mistakenly put into more danger that previously existed. If Bush did that....I would have a hell of a lot more respect for him and might even consider quite giving him so much shit for what he did. If you make a mistake, you apologize for it and try to fix it. He's done neither...just maintained the "threat" and tries to fix the boondoggle that exists in Iraq without trying to solve problems, but rather fix the results of the problems.....gee, that sounds familair....just like American society. But Bush will never apologize....why? Because he's had alterior motives from the beginning, and therefore isn't the least bit sorry for trying to get his buddies more money, and protecting the Saudi interestes in America.


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