Zophar's Message Domain

Go Back   Zophar's Message Domain > General Chat > Talk of the Town

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-06-2008, 01:00 AM   #1
JadussD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,100
Default Metaphysics of Evolution

Evolution. Is there any concept more overrated?

Right. Let's start over.

EVOLUTION causes those forms to exist which are dependent for their growth on AVOIDING death. Evolution will never give birth to anything but that which AVOIDS DEATH or is consumed by it. Let us contemplate this way of being...

Oh! That means that your entire make-up is a struggle against death.

So we arrive at complexity in the context of avoiding death. Could it be, that this is simply growth in the context of enslavement to death? There could be other ways to grow, but enslavement to death is the essence of evolution.

Think hard: is this the only way to grow?
JadussD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 04:48 PM   #2
Isildur
Senior Member
 
Isildur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,339
Default

Slight correction: avoiding death long enough to reproduce, and if necessary, rear the young. Reproduction is the driving force, not longevity, because whatever precautions are taken against death, the individual is going to get offed by something or another, sooner or later.
Isildur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 05:22 PM   #3
Fla Flash
Staff (News -- Rom Hacking)
 
Fla Flash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isildur View Post
Slight correction: avoiding death long enough to reproduce, and if necessary, rear the young. Reproduction is the driving force, not longevity, because whatever precautions are taken against death, the individual is going to get offed by something or another, sooner or later.
Sounds kind of like Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park.
"Nature will find a way."
Fla Flash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2008, 06:05 PM   #4
Cornellius
Senior Member
 
Cornellius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Québec/Canada
Posts: 2,787
Default

Living things in this world will always be searching of a way to avoid death, to be immortal. Always.
__________________
My job

Industrial electronic technician
Industrial mechanic (Millwright)
Cornellius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 06:13 AM   #5
Reaper man
Member
 
Reaper man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 5,409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornellius View Post
...to be immortal. Always.
something about immortality irks me. Wouldn't you, after a certain amount of time,get, well, bored of life. I mean if I lived for a millennium or 2 I think that at some point, I would have seen all there is for the world to see and it would get to the point where I would just wish death.

Same goes with the concept of heaven. After a finite amount of time, I'm fairly certain you could get rather bored of heaven as well.
__________________
Reaper man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2009, 12:11 AM   #6
jdev
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper man View Post
something about immortality irks me. Wouldn't you, after a certain amount of time,get, well, bored of life. I mean if I lived for a millennium or 2 I think that at some point, I would have seen all there is for the world to see and it would get to the point where I would just wish death.

Same goes with the concept of heaven. After a finite amount of time, I'm fairly certain you could get rather bored of heaven as well.
I suppose "the grass is always greener" applies.
jdev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 09:05 AM   #7
SpaceTiger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,548
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JadussD View Post
So we arrive at complexity in the context of avoiding death. Could it be, that this is simply growth in the context of enslavement to death?

Think hard: is this the only way to grow?
My first instinct is to say no, simply because human design (e.g. technology) grows without regard to death. However, if we generalize "death" to mean "error" or any sort impediment to growth, then technological advancement could be viewed as a similar process to evolution. Any collection of knowledge is the result of a complex history of trial and error, either in the mind of a single individual or the minds of many.

One possible alternative is growth by sheer randomness. Death (or error) need not be involved if complexity just happens by chance. This may seem so improbable as to be negligible, but it's possible that our universe is an example of just such a process -- the random anomaly in an otherwise lifeless multiverse.
SpaceTiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 03:08 PM   #8
JadussD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceTiger View Post
My first instinct is to say no, simply because human design (e.g.x technology) grows without regard to death. However, if we generalize "death" to mean "error" or any sort impediment to growth, then technological advancement could be viewed as a similar process to evolution. Any collection of knowledge is the result of a complex history of trial and error, either in the mind of a single individual or the minds of many.

One possible alternative is growth by sheer randomness. Death (or error) need not be involved if complexity just happens by chance. This may seem so improbable as to be negligible, but it's possible that our universe is an example of just such a process -- the random anomaly in an otherwise lifeless multiverse.
Consider for a moment that life could be described as being made up of a few self-reproducing patterns. Basically, there are patterns in the universe (helix, golden mean, pi, etc). These patterns exist because they are the patterns that when they arise, allow continued growth to occur in a way that resists entropy.

Consider that if there was a multiverse that parts could be measured qualitatively based on whether conditions allow these patterns to exist in greater or lesser amounts. If entropy is resisted by technology, then the patterns which allow growth must be made present through some other means, or things will decay.
JadussD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 03:32 PM   #9
JadussD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JadussD View Post
Consider for a moment that life could be described as being made up of a few self-reproducing patterns. Basically, there are patterns in the universe (helix, golden mean, pi, etc). These patterns exist because they are the patterns that when they arise, allow continued growth to occur in a way that resists entropy.

Consider that if there was a multiverse that parts could be measured qualitatively based on whether conditions allow these patterns to exist in greater or lesser amounts. If entropy is resisted by technology, then the patterns which allow growth must be made present through some other means, or things will decay.
Consider how beauty used to be applied to the golden mean. By surrounding humans with architecture and patterns which conform to the patterns of life, one makes them more present in the subconscious and conscious minds of all, thus increasing their presence in the world. This is lost on way too many people making way too many things
JadussD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 08:26 PM   #10
SpaceTiger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,548
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JadussD View Post
Consider that if there was a multiverse that parts could be measured qualitatively based on whether conditions allow these patterns to exist in greater or lesser amounts. If entropy is resisted by technology, then the patterns which allow growth must be made present through some other means, or things will decay.
The trouble with a model like this is that it's very hard to see how the factors that lead to our own growth have any bearing on whether or not the universe grows or reproduces itself. One can imagine a somewhat far-fetched scenario in which universes are selected based on ability to produce intelligent life because that life is eventually able to make new universes. This wouldn't explain, however, how the universe came to be able to support life to begin with.

That said, however, there do exist evolutionary models for the universe, but they involve a propensity for producing black holes. Basically, the idea is that the creation of a black hole leads to the creation of a new universe (some fraction of the time), so the universes that survive will be those that can most efficiently produce black holes. It's all speculative, since we have no idea whether or not production of a black hole leads to production of a new universe, but it's an interesting idea.

Last edited by SpaceTiger; 12-07-2008 at 08:40 PM.
SpaceTiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:40 AM.

Contact Us - Zophar's Domain - Archive - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.