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-   -   OMG, I'm replaying Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie (http://www.zophar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12609)

Cornellius 10-12-2009 05:11 PM

OMG, I'm replaying Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie
 
I absolutly loved those games ! Never tried Nuts & Bolt though, as I don't have an X-BOX 360.

DK64 was good too but not as good. I miss RARE :(

The 9th Sage 10-12-2009 05:14 PM

Yeah, I think DK64 gets more flak than it ought to. Mm...makes me want to replay a few of these games myself.

Reaper man 10-13-2009 10:19 PM

moved to gaming / console talk.

Cornellius 10-13-2009 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper man (Post 94812)
moved to gaming / console talk.

Hrm... Yeah, thanks.

Reaper man 10-14-2009 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornellius (Post 94813)
Hrm... Yeah, thanks.

No prob. That's what I'm here for. :3

Iconoclast 10-14-2009 11:47 PM

I guess DK64 had its own implementation of replay value. Banjo-Tooie I recently finished for testing, but with fun I liked finishing Zelda more.

The 9th Sage 10-15-2009 01:26 AM

Hm, you know...I never actually played Tooie. Maybe I should try it sometime...disappointing that "Stop and Swop" never really materialized though.

Iconoclast 10-15-2009 04:25 AM

Somehow five years back I came across this article that really explained the stop and swap mystery but can't find it at all now. It was in the form of a fake interview (huh) with an ex-Rare worker.

I think it was for the isolated cheat codes in the next game, Banjo-Tooie, but I really don't remember. Actually I remember there was also a "beta Bottle's revenge mode" feature where Devil Bottles lets a second controller (i.e. like a friend or something) control the bosses against you when you're in a boss fight...at least one of the eggs from B-K had a tie to that.
The Rarewitchproject dudes didn't actually complete the mystery to find out about the beta at first though; it looks like they found it in the binary.

Anyway, there are feelings that you won't be able to reclaim while you're playing B-T instead of -Kazooie, but to me, Banjo-Tooie was like a much larger, beautiful sky to explore than the game before. If I were you I wouldn't let the game sit back too far in the past before giving it a try.

AkaneJones 10-15-2009 05:25 AM

Watch out for the evil final Canary Mary battle in Tooie if you're going to play. I think they wanted you to have carpel-tunnel just to have the full sound test, it was evil. I'd also say I think DK64 is under rated because it seems too much like BK, and thus less unique. Plus it wasn't quite like DK Country series, and the music was better in DKC1&2.

Iconoclast 10-15-2009 05:57 AM

lol that's exactly why we bought a MadCatz turbo controller. Some FAQs said that to beat Canary Mary over at Cloud Cuckooland you needed to keep your pace steady until the very end when she's confident and then speed up and win, but that's evidently full of shit.
And yeah I tried just the natural way, hitting A as fast as my fingers could physically go; it didn't work as well as it did back at Glitter Gulch Mine.

On the contrary, after configuring N-Rage's DirectInput8 V2 controller plug-in to emulate N64 rapidfire (or turbo), I was flying with minutes left for Canary Mary to catch up with my cart, so the hardest part was just hitting F4 to take off the speed limiter and wait for her to catch up so I can get my cash.

DK64 seemed pretty unique to me. I think I liked it as far as replay value goes, more than B-K, but that statement can get rough I see. I still remember -Kazooie much more.

The 9th Sage 10-15-2009 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast (Post 94934)
Somehow five years back I came across this article that really explained the stop and swap mystery but can't find it at all now. It was in the form of a fake interview (huh) with an ex-Rare worker.

I think it was for the isolated cheat codes in the next game, Banjo-Tooie, but I really don't remember. Actually I remember there was also a "beta Bottle's revenge mode" feature where Devil Bottles lets a second controller (i.e. like a friend or something) control the bosses against you when you're in a boss fight...at least one of the eggs from B-K had a tie to that.
The Rarewitchproject dudes didn't actually complete the mystery to find out about the beta at first though; it looks like they found it in the binary.

Ah yes, in Banjo Tooie...evidently they enabled this with Gameshark codes. It was more than bosses IIRC, the second player could take control of normal enemies as well. It's too bad it was cut out, it sounded pretty cool actually.

I seem to remember them getting the Stop 'n' Swop menu too (If I remember, there are these really long cheats you can enter in that one room where all the cheats are entered that let you obtain the eggs and the Ice Key). That Ice Key used to drive me nuts. I spent some time trying to find a way in there. :) You've probably seen it, but there was evidently some connection to DK64 as well (at least according to this article). I'm sure there was more about the Banjo games, but I can't find the articles on there yet.

Iconoclast 10-16-2009 03:43 AM

Yeah I think the way without cheats to get the eggs (and also the key) in Banjo-Kazooie was to enter those long codes in the Sandcastlefloor at Treasure Trove Cove.

My memory's been foggy enough to forget Mumbo showed anything. If you've got Project64 1.6 the code to set "Bottles' Revenge Mode" is bundled with it in the CHT resource file.

That article is a good read. Bah there were a couple unrelated notes that, pfft speculation, and also they may have missed one thing at the time.

Now I'm not at all sure about what to do with the ice key you get from Banjo-Kazooie; Hell maybe Mumbo's revealing the eggs and key was designed after simultaneous work with Donkey Kong 64 in early beta work.
But I do know this article at least is not addressing the concern, that the ice key in Banjo-Tooie we can get is not just some repeated mystery. The eggs alone don't come in to use.

The ice key in Banjo-Tooie, might have been a remake and also part of the idea of cancellation of the Stop 'N Swop idea on the N64 after turning off one game and then on the next. It is used within the same game itself: Take the key with you to Glitter Gulch Mine, go to the waterfall caverns, Talon-Torpedo-blast the boulder at the bottom, and swim through a network to an isolated chamber of the Hailfire Peaks level that has a locked ice box where you approach with the key to open it.
What's inside is what's called a Mega Glowbo; any short explanation in to that would be a waste of time if one hasn't played the game though.

So what I'm thinking is, Donkey Kong 64 was more just evidence that the SNS idea was in part reversed--not just that the reload function wasn't final for Banjo-Tooie but also that the beta string "ICE KEY" was probably an idea set before work began deep enough into Banjo-Tooie.

Great, I finally found that article I read years ago (on web.archive)!
http://web.archive.org/web/200711091...top_fin_en.php

The 9th Sage 10-16-2009 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast (Post 95023)
Yeah I think the way without cheats to get the eggs (and also the key) in Banjo-Kazooie was to enter those long codes in the Sandcastlefloor at Treasure Trove Cove.

My memory's been foggy enough to forget Mumbo showed anything. If you've got Project64 1.6 the code to set "Bottles' Revenge Mode" is bundled with it in the CHT resource file.

That article is a good read. Bah there were a couple unrelated notes that, pfft speculation, and also they may have missed one thing at the time.

Now I'm not at all sure about what to do with the ice key you get from Banjo-Kazooie; Hell maybe Mumbo's revealing the eggs and key was designed after simultaneous work with Donkey Kong 64 in early beta work.
But I do know this article at least is not addressing the concern, that the ice key in Banjo-Tooie we can get is not just some repeated mystery. The eggs alone don't come in to use.

The ice key in Banjo-Tooie, might have been a remake and also part of the idea of cancellation of the Stop 'N Swop idea on the N64 after turning off one game and then on the next. It is used within the same game itself: Take the key with you to Glitter Gulch Mine, go to the waterfall caverns, Talon-Torpedo-blast the boulder at the bottom, and swim through a network to an isolated chamber of the Hailfire Peaks level that has a locked ice box where you approach with the key to open it.
What's inside is what's called a Mega Glowbo; any short explanation in to that would be a waste of time if one hasn't played the game though.

So what I'm thinking is, Donkey Kong 64 was more just evidence that the SNS idea was in part reversed--not just that the reload function wasn't final for Banjo-Tooie but also that the beta string "ICE KEY" was probably an idea set before work began deep enough into Banjo-Tooie.

Great, I finally found that article I read years ago (on web.archive)!
http://web.archive.org/web/200711091...top_fin_en.php

Pretty interesting article...the screens for the DK thing don't really prove anything though. I doubt the Rare guy would have a reason to lie about it, however. Apparently you can actually use the key in Banjo-Kazooie then? I didn't know there was a way.

Oh, I love stuff like this. It's too bad it didn't get released in it's full-on form, but pretty awesome to read about nonetheless. I'm always fascinated by dummied out items, or secrets that are kind of there but never quite made release...(like the references in the Perfect Dark game to "Perfect Head", which was the link it would have had with the Gameboy Camera and a GB Transfer pak, the still existant references to the 64DD in Ocarina's coding...).

Iconoclast 10-16-2009 06:23 AM

It is pretty thrilling. That "supergloking" code the ex-Rare dude mentioned, that is one of the code patterns that has been found in the binary and also behaves like a correctly entered code, in the process of hitting the letters in -Tooie's code chamber, yet has no result or confirmation but a continued sequence or pattern. (This means, among some other codes, the code itself exists but to no point where there is any registration or result.) Of course with the mega glowbos removed as part of SNS so was this code.

For Banjo-Kazooie, myself I can't verify because my cartridge save has the ice key but all six eggs as well. This article has reminded me that only the four eggs in the screen middle are needed and that the two extra ones to the side are used as anti-cheating measures that, once collected, render the mystery impossible to solve (or as if you had collected nothing).

I'll just join Cornellius then and work on a complete save for Banjo-Kazooie as well...see if I can take some screen shots, offer save states, etc. to justify this.

The 9th Sage 10-16-2009 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast (Post 95036)
For Banjo-Kazooie, myself I can't verify because my cartridge save has the ice key but all six eggs as well. This article has reminded me that only the four eggs in the screen middle are needed and that the two extra ones to the side are used as anti-cheating measures that, once collected, render the mystery impossible to solve (or as if you had collected nothing).

I'll just join Cornellius then and work on a complete save for Banjo-Kazooie as well...see if I can take some screen shots, offer save states, etc. to justify this.

I saw that about the extras...I wondered what their purpose was (I don't remember where, but I got the idea that there were a few extras from somewhere). If I thought it wouldn't take a while to get a complete game of Banjo going I'd try it myself. It'll be pretty cool if it works in some fashion (well, not expecting it to work with Banjo-Tooie, but I mean starting the sequence at least).

pipes 10-19-2009 02:15 AM

The Stop N Swap was I think fully finished in the 1st game its just the extra code was needed in the 2nd. The reason it was never done was Nintendo's fault because by the time the 2nd game came out the N64 got a revised motherboard that used different capacitors. The old version of the 64 had older capacitors that still kept a charge after the console was switched off still powering the RAM. In the later versions of the motherboard the capacitors didn't hold the charge long enough to keep memory in the RAM so RARE couldn't do anything with it to keep data in time to switch out the game to unlock the key and stuff so they did the workaround and just let you collect it in the second game instead. SO in a way this was a good thing because if they did finish all this before the new revision of the 64 you wouldn't be able to get it working making you pissed off!

The 9th Sage 10-19-2009 05:49 PM

Oh yeah, I know...it was pretty cool idea, but thwarted by technology.

Haoie 10-22-2009 08:04 PM

Maybe it's me, but I really didn't like the sort of GFX found in DKC and other related games.

What's it called, semi prerendered sprites or something?

Lillymon 10-22-2009 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haoie (Post 95301)
Maybe it's me, but I really didn't like the sort of GFX found in DKC and other related games.

What's it called, semi prerendered sprites or something?

I believe they are completely pre-rendered, then flattened into sprites and background layers (we use effectively the same technique for rendered FMVs today). It was fairly innovative for the time, and I do actually like the DKC games myself. I don't think the graphics look that bad, and they do have plenty of 'personality' to them.

Edit: That being said, Nintendo allegedly saw DKC and told Shigeru Miyamoto that they wanted that sort of graphical style for Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. Miyamoto was not happy with this suggestion, so we want off and came up with the 'hand-drawn' style that made Yoshi's Island so timeless and unique. I must admit here that Yoshi's Island is clearly better than any of the DKC games.

The lesson of the story: Don't fuck with Shigeru Miyamoto.

The 9th Sage 10-23-2009 12:41 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillymon (Post 95314)
The lesson of the story: Don't fuck with Shigeru Miyamoto.

Indeed. Those kinds of graphics can be good, but here's a case against them (the never-came-out DS A Boy and his Blob game):
http://www.zophar.net/forums/attachm...1&d=1256258434

If they are used in an alright way (something like DKC) they aren't terrible, but man...look at those screenshots. Then look up a picture of the Wii "A Boy and his Blob" that recently came out.

AkaneJones 10-23-2009 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillymon (Post 95314)
Edit: That being said, Nintendo allegedly saw DKC and told Shigeru Miyamoto that they wanted that sort of graphical style for Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. Miyamoto was not happy with this suggestion, so we want off and came up with the 'hand-drawn' style that made Yoshi's Island so timeless and unique. I must admit here that Yoshi's Island is clearly better than any of the DKC games.

The lesson of the story: Don't fuck with Shigeru Miyamoto.

What irony with Yoshi Story and all.

Iconoclast 10-30-2009 09:07 AM

Back to that SNS issue, I have the four correct eggs and the ice key now, but the ice key doesn't disappear from my inventory as it should when I go through the golden warp cauldron. As a complement, the door to the game transfer did not open.

While it is possible that the whole interview was "fake", I'm left thinking about the possibility of the version I have dumped?

I have the 1.0 version of Banjo-Kazooie.
I am looking for someone who has a later version.

To see what version of your dump you have, check the binary at the 0x3F address. If this stores null 0x00, we have v1.0. The values 0x01 and 0x02 are v1.1 and v1.2 releases of the game.
Otherwise you can just do a CRC/MD5 check of the image or something, and we can compare.

The 9th Sage 10-30-2009 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast (Post 95528)
Back to that SNS issue, I have the four correct eggs and the ice key now, but the ice key doesn't disappear from my inventory as it should when I go through the golden warp cauldron. As a complement, the door to the game transfer did not open.

Aw, that's disappointing. If anything, I'd think a version that has this in it would be the earliest one possible (in that regard, I'd love to see a beta of this game).

Iconoclast 10-30-2009 09:19 PM

That could be, but since Banjo-Kazooie wasn't after the time of the N64 hardware modifications or of the 64DD expansion being canceled, it would also make sense if the SNS implementation wasn't done until a later release build of the game. Even according to Mumbo in his briefing of the pictures, Rare definitely had some progress on Banjo-Tooie, but it was much later when they saw that they were practically forced to cancel. So it could be that they kinda "needed more time".

What would really help is if I can trace a GS code to let Banjo move through boundaries like walls and doors, and then I can go through the door instead to see if anything happens.
I can't really find the text in the game, though, since all that stuff seems to be compressed or encrypted.

I want to know this for sure, though; I want to prove, one way or the other, if the current fate is correct.

The only other possibilities I have in mind are the version or maybe my save file.
If the interview was fake, they did a good job, except a few notions were suspicious I think. The only real reaction I had at first, was the two outer eggs being fake and used to prevent cheating--while there were codes you could enter in the Sandcastle floor to unlock them. I'm sure they expected people to hack the game and find the codes, though, so that would be the only explanation behind that contradiction.

The 9th Sage 10-30-2009 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast (Post 95544)
That could be, but since Banjo-Kazooie wasn't after the time of the N64 hardware modifications or of the 64DD expansion being canceled, it would also make sense if the SNS implementation wasn't done until a later release build of the game. Even according to Mumbo in his briefing of the pictures, Rare definitely had some progress on Banjo-Tooie, but it was much later when they saw that they were practically forced to cancel. So it could be that they kinda "needed more time".

What would really help is if I can trace a GS code to let Banjo move through boundaries like walls and doors, and then I can go through the door instead to see if anything happens.
I can't really find the text in the game, though, since all that stuff seems to be compressed or encrypted.

I want to know this for sure, though; I want to prove, one way or the other, if the current fate is correct.

The only other possibilities I have in mind are the version or maybe my save file.
If the interview was fake, they did a good job, except a few notions were suspicious I think. The only real reaction I had at first, was the two outer eggs being fake and used to prevent cheating--while there were codes you could enter in the Sandcastle floor to unlock them. I'm sure they expected people to hack the game and find the codes, though, so that would be the only explanation behind that contradiction.

On the eggs, that's why it made sense to me...the codes seem unlikely for someone to guess (don't have the list, but they are REALLY long), so chances are they'd be hacking to get them. That and they really weren't shown at the end of the game like the others.

I'll hunt for a walk through walls code, though even then it might not help if an event flag (or some such thing) needs to get triggered for this to happen, assuming it is in the game still.

Iconoclast 10-30-2009 11:47 PM

Oh that could intervene, but any help is great here. I know levitation isn't enough to get through, but I've still got a number of things outside of the door itself that I will be taking a crack at.

Yeah the codes for all six eggs are so well published online that anyone who doesn't know the story has already failed the interview's challenge. I guess it's also possible, that in Banjo-Tooie, Blackeye was going to tell you the other two codes for the bad eggs...if you messed up. What we have in mind is more likely, though, since Rare was rather against their games being hacked.

To your edit on the list, I have an organized reference for anyone who would like to reproduce what I did originally.

Code:

Treasure Trove Cove          Magenta OUTOFTHESEAITRISESTOREVEALMORESECRETPRIZES
Gobi's Valley                Blue    ADESERTDOOROPENSWIDEANCIENTSECRETSWAITINSIDE
Mad Monster Mansion          Green  AMIDSTTHEHAUNTEDGLOOMASECRETINTHEBATHROOM
Rusty Bucket Bay            Red    THISSECRETYOULLBEGRABBININTHECAPTAINSCABIN

Mad Monster Mansion:Basement Cyan    DONTYOUGOANDTELLHERABOUTTHESECRETINHERCELLAR
Click Clock Wood:Winter      Yellow  NOWBANJOWILLBEABLETOSEEITONNABNUTSTABLE

Freezezy Peak                Ice Key NOWYOUCANSEEANICEICEKEYWHICHYOUCANHAVEFORFREE

Where the Cyan and Yellow ones are the bad ones that no one wants.

The 9th Sage 10-30-2009 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast (Post 95561)
Oh that could intervene, but any help is great here. I know levitation isn't enough to get through, but I've still got a number of things outside of the door itself that I will be taking a crack at.

Yeah the codes for all six eggs are so well published online that anyone who doesn't know the story has already failed the interview's challenge. I guess it's also possible, that in Banjo-Tooie, Blackeye was going to tell you the other two codes for the bad eggs...if you messed up. What we have in mind is more likely, though, since Rare was rather against their games being hacked.

Yeah, seems pretty cruel to do something like that to people unless they were hacking the game. lol

*edit*
Haven't found a code yet...I was wondering though, could something like a size modifier possibly work? Maybe you can glitch your way behind the doors? I don't know.

Iconoclast 10-31-2009 01:19 AM

Hmmm, I'm not counting on it. Unless it is time-consuming for you with other things to look at, I'm willing to try anything. I appreciate any help.
In any result though the cheat would be cool to modify his size anytime.

Though in advance, reason I don't think that will work is, well in many parts of Grunty's lair, you can levitate to float through the ceiling and then outside to get around the walls. The top room however is unusually secure from this, and I imagine Rare apprehended tricks here more than just the individual secret items.

Wow, thinking back to that now I remember when I was 10 or so and I had my GameShark cart for the moon jump code to use with Banjo-Kazooie, I was exploring everywhere to use it and to see if I could get behind that particular door in the transformation room, mainly because that's the door Klungo comes out through, as seen in the cast list when Grunty's calling for him to rescue her from under the rock. Eight years later I know how important this door is.

Cornellius 10-31-2009 05:43 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVc7hq32b0Y&feature=related0

:cool:


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