Zophar's Message Domain

Zophar's Message Domain (http://www.zophar.net/forums/index.php)
-   Site Questions / Suggestions (http://www.zophar.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   Make the news page several tables (http://www.zophar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1646)

phonymike 06-23-2004 02:49 AM

Make the news page several tables
 
I don't know about other people, but I have cable, and the main page just sits there on pause waiting for all the news to load. I usually don't even bother letting it load, so I jump to these forums. My guess is it takes at least 10 seconds to appear on a good day. I've heard IE doesn't show a table until the whole thing is loaded, so you gotta download the whole fricken page before even one headline is displayed.

Please, no ignorant responses like "get a real browser like firefox." Chopping the main page into several tables doesn't hurt anyone, yet has so much to gain. If a design could be implemented, that'd be cool.

<P ID="signature">immortality</P>

SwampGas 06-23-2004 04:50 AM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
We've been waiting on a redesign since January of last year.

If you know a web designer that will work on trade, send them my way.

<P ID="signature"><marquee direction=right scrollamount=10>http://www.zophar.net/personal/swampgas/hsrun.gif</marquee></P>

Lobster Cowboy 06-23-2004 05:28 AM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
> If you know a web designer that will work on trade, send
> them my way.

what kind of trade?

<P ID="signature"><img src=http://www.lobsterstudios.com/images/lobsterranx.jpg>
</img></P>

SwampGas 06-23-2004 06:12 AM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
> what kind of trade?

Publicity.

<P ID="signature"><marquee direction=right scrollamount=10>http://www.zophar.net/personal/swampgas/hsrun.gif</marquee></P>

Lobster Cowboy 06-23-2004 07:24 AM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
> Publicity.

sounds good to me

what do you need? if you handle the php and server side stuff, i can work exclusively on layout. i see places where we can cut bandwidth, yet provide easier navigation.

i'm seriously looking to nab a client to bolster my web portfolio, and this would be a fun way to do it. i'm in if you want me. if not, that's cool, too. i'd really like to bounce ideas off each other, see which direction you want to go. ZD has some tough problems to solve, but i'm confident this can be done, and done well.

you know my IM, so give me a buzz and tell me what you think

<P ID="signature"><img src=http://www.lobsterstudios.com/images/lobsterranx.jpg>
</img></P>

packardmelan 06-23-2004 08:32 PM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
Didn't I offer to work on a redesign when I was staff for that month? I remember converting some of the Emu pages over to one of those templates.

I still wonder what happened to that whole "new ZD" layout.

<P ID="signature">It doesn't matter if you?€™re 7'8" and weigh 100 lbs, or you're 4'9" and weigh 300 lbs, or black, green, or blue. That's Gene's greatest legacy to all of us - inclusion for the world. - Robert Blackman</P>

Canar 06-27-2004 07:44 PM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
> Please, no ignorant responses like "get a real browser like
> firefox." Chopping the main page into several tables doesn't
> hurt anyone, yet has so much to gain. If a design could be
> implemented, that'd be cool.

Nonono for the love of God don't use tables. Well, okay, use tables if you want to yell in a very loud voice: "I'm a retard who can't lay content out with some level of intelligence." That's the interpretation for modern web design anyhow... the ZD layout was originally created when tables were still a "good idea", so don't consider that as an insult.

The current ZD layout is perfect for a simple main-body/float design, like my page is. I use two floats, which ups the complexity somewhat. Furthermore, it wouldn't need much of a change to do that. I could recode (a version of) that stuff in an afternoon as a stop-gap measure for the new layout, if any of you would appreciate that.

<P ID="signature"><center><hr width=468><a href='http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/psylight'>http://web.unbc.ca/~cookb/sr.png
</a>Now with comments!</center></P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Canar on 06/27/04 02:46 PM.</FONT></P>

AkaneJones 06-27-2004 08:14 PM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
What the hell are you talking about tables are the very basis of standard html almost every site uses them they just happen to have the borders turned off. Hell ZD even uses tables in it's coding already... I don't even know how you design a website without tables, unless you used flash.

<P ID="signature"><hr>
<center>
http://members.aol.com/AkaneJones/Pics/LMleh.gifhttp://members.aol.com/AkaneJones/Pics/LynnStatus.png
</center></P>

Arson 06-27-2004 08:31 PM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
> What the hell are you talking about tables are the very
> basis of standard html almost every site uses them they just
> happen to have the borders turned off. Hell ZD even uses
> tables in it's coding already... I don't even know how you
> design a website without tables, unless you used flash.

First of all, let me thank you. I laughed harder at your post than I've laughed at anything for several weeks, if not longer. It's clear that you don't know anything about HTML, so I'm not going to flame you, but I will offer a bit of an explanation.

First of all, Canar was right. Any experienced web designer would vomit at the prospect of using tables to control the layout of a page. This was fine 5 years ago when there were few options, but today we have CSS. With CSS, it's quite easy to position data on the page in whatever form you want. It's far more flexible *and* efficient, not to mention proper, to use CSS for positioning data than to rely on tables. You'll find that any decent site that isn't using a design that is over 5 years old (such as is the case here) does not use tables for their layout.

The only drawback is that older browsers can't render CSS properly, but there's no excuse for using a browser that old. I've ran IE6 on a 120Mhz Pentium with only 32MB of RAM and it worked perfectly fine. If someone's computer isn't powerful enough to run a modern browser, they can easily upgrade to one that will for around $50.

Tables were never meant to be used for layout, they were used to define specific bits of information. It goes against the HTML specifications to lay out a page using tables. Of course, HTML has been deprecated and is no longer being updated, but that's a whole different issue.

<P ID="signature"></P>

Canar 06-27-2004 08:35 PM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
> What the hell are you talking about tables are the very
> basis of standard html almost every site uses them they just
> happen to have the borders turned off. Hell ZD even uses
> tables in it's coding already... I don't even know how you
> design a website without tables, unless you used flash.

No flash. CSS. Proper web design. Where content and layout are different elements. Using tables is idiocy that two kinds of web-designers use when designing modern webpages:

1. websites that are designed to be backwards compatible with NN4.x and IE3.x
2. amateurs

http://www.csszengarden.comCSS Zen Garden</a> <-- check that out. If you think you can't design websites without tables... wow. The only excuse I can think of is that your webdesign experience comes from the '90s. The W3 specs have been out for proper table-free design since the days of the 4.x browsers. Hell, the spec became a recommendation December 17, 1996.

I'm not knocking old designs. Old designs use tables. That's okay. Modern designs do not and should not, with the one exception I've listed.

<P ID="signature"><center><hr width=468><a href='http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/psylight'>http://web.unbc.ca/~cookb/sr.png
</a>Now with comments!</center></P>

AkaneJones 06-27-2004 08:51 PM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
Funny that but every site I've ever seen uses table code some where in that page if it isn't flat page/controled by frames or flash. Nintendo's Website uses them, ZD Uses them, Rpgamer uses them, F&C's page uses them, Mink's page uses them, Peach Princess uses them, Deep Discount DVD uses them even Google uses one. Hell ever message board is loaded with table html code. Show me a page that has no < table > code anywhere on the page that isn't code in flash, none HTML that isn't simple and flat.

<P ID="signature"><hr>
<center>
http://members.aol.com/AkaneJones/Pics/LMleh.gifhttp://members.aol.com/AkaneJones/Pics/LynnStatus.png
</center></P>

SwampGas 06-27-2004 09:33 PM

Nice
 
So make a design.

Everyone always talks smack...and NO ONE does anything. I don't believe a word anyone says anymore....everyone is a liar and talking shit until I SEE something. Until I *SEE* a new design, everyone is full of shit. I've been hearing "ooh this is how you do it" and "ooh I have an idea" since 1998.

<P ID="signature"><marquee direction=right scrollamount=10>http://www.zophar.net/personal/swampgas/hsrun.gif</marquee></P>

AkaneJones 06-27-2004 09:35 PM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
Pff! I hate style sheets, they force you program in a langage above standard HTML by creating complete new set of identiffers and buches of extra style sheet pages and I maintain the fact that you can't program in standard HTML without tables. CSS is just an excuse to use a table with font control from a style sheet rather than a the single html page. They do the exact same thing they control a box, while it does add the other style sheet crap, it more of a pain to code and only give you the advantage of reloading it anytime, but only if your ever going to use that style sheet again.

<P ID="signature"><hr>
<center>
http://members.aol.com/AkaneJones/Pics/LMleh.gifhttp://members.aol.com/AkaneJones/Pics/LynnStatus.png
</center></P>

Arson 06-27-2004 09:44 PM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
> Show me a page that has no < table > code
> anywhere on the page that isn't code in flash, none HTML
> that isn't simple and flat.

http://www.romhacking.comRomhacking.com</a> has a design that ZD's content could easily be ported into without having to change the look of the page at all, yet it uses 0 tables and renders much faster.

<P ID="signature"></P>

AkaneJones 06-27-2004 09:47 PM

Re: Nice
 
You've got apoint, I'm not coding a thing, but I don't maintain I could fix it. However people who do never try.
But considering the load time would a style sheet really fix the problem since outside data is taking so long to load in the first place, I'd imgine the same problem would occur. But then I don't know java or css that's being imployed on the page, though I'd take a guess and say it was the cause of the slowness.

<P ID="signature"><hr>
<center>
http://members.aol.com/AkaneJones/Pics/LMleh.gifhttp://members.aol.com/AkaneJones/Pics/LynnStatus.png
</center></P>

Arson 06-27-2004 09:53 PM

And here are some better examples...
 
http://www.voxmachina.comVox Machina</a> not only has no tables what-so-ever, it even has four completely different skins to choose from.

And the http://www.w3.orgWorld Wide Web Consortium</a>, the group who sets the standards for HTML, and is in fact headed by Tim Berners-Lee, the guy who CREATED HTML and the WWW, uses no tables on it's main page either. Why? Because as the people who create the standards for writing good HTML, they're obligated to adhere to those standards.

<P ID="signature"></P>

Arson 06-27-2004 09:54 PM

Re: Nice
 
What about the time that InVerse redesigned the site and Zophar and everyone else on the staff approved of it but you, who weren't even running the site at the time but were an admin for the host, threatened to shut down the site if it were implemented because you didn't like the color scheme?

<P ID="signature"></P>

AkaneJones 06-27-2004 10:08 PM

Re: And here are some better examples...
 
Funny Java script and Style Sheets.. try again with out using java, or loading data from a style sheet.

Try finding a page that uses self contained data without java, while load data from another page is a neat trick. Div which just load the style sheet data is being used the same a table, since CSS is giving for page box control, which is assentualy a table.

<P ID="signature"><hr>
<center>
http://members.aol.com/AkaneJones/Pics/LMleh.gifhttp://members.aol.com/AkaneJones/Pics/LynnStatus.png
</center></P>

king killa 06-27-2004 10:13 PM

Re: And here are some better examples...
 
> Try finding a page that uses self contained data without
> java, while load data from another page is a neat trick. Div
> which just load the style sheet data is being used the same
> a table, since CSS is giving for page box control, which is
> assentualy a table.
>

uh, the fact that it is controlled by an outside CSS file is the freakin' point.

<P ID="signature"></P>

juggaleaux 06-27-2004 10:51 PM

Re: Nice
 
> But considering the load time would a style sheet really fix
> the problem since outside data is taking so long to load in
> the first place, I'd imgine the same problem would occur.

You, sir, are a tard.

Slow page load comes from excess table/tr/td code bloating the html.
Using a stylesheet allows you to free up a lot of that bloat, what with the code being stored one time in the css file.

As usual, Arson is right on the money here.

Arson 06-27-2004 11:09 PM

Re: And here are some better examples...
 
So, basically, you want me to show you a page that looks modern yet uses techniques that have been outdated for over 5 years? From your posts, it's clear that you have no understanding of what CSS is or how it works, you don't know the difference between java and javascript and you don't even understand the problem that this thread was created to discuss.

From what I've seen, you're the only person on this entire thread that is unaware of how tables slow the rendering (not the loading, the rendering, two different things) of a page, particularly in Internet Explorer. That gives you quite a few choices as from whom to get a clue.

<P ID="signature"></P>

SwampGas 06-28-2004 12:37 AM

Re: Nice
 
> What about the time that InVerse redesigned the site and
> Zophar and everyone else on the staff approved of it but
> you, who weren't even running the site at the time but were
> an admin for the host, threatened to shut down the site if
> it were implemented because you didn't like the color
> scheme?

This is the reason why nothing is happening. People like you are living in the past.

<P ID="signature"><marquee direction=right scrollamount=10>http://www.zophar.net/personal/swampgas/hsrun.gif</marquee></P>

Canar 06-28-2004 06:52 AM

Re: Nice
 
> So make a design.

Can do. I'll start tomorrow, and have a CSS, non-tables version of the front page by next weekend, if all goes well.

It'll just be an example page; I'll make a copy of a current index.html, translate it over to a CSS design, and post the result.

Will that work for you? I'll try set it up so it can be easily scripted via PHP; I don't know what the ZD back end looks like though.

<P ID="signature"><center><hr width=468><a href='http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/psylight'>http://web.unbc.ca/~cookb/sr.png
</a>Now with comments!</center></P>

SwampGas 06-28-2004 07:43 AM

Re: Nice
 
We need a new design. The scripting will be fit into a new design.

So far no one has come up with a complete design.

<P ID="signature"><marquee direction=right scrollamount=10>http://www.zophar.net/personal/swampgas/hsrun.gif</marquee></P>

mFC 06-28-2004 08:27 AM

Re: Nice
 
i'm working on one at the moment and stuff. but yeah, ill place it somewhere when it looks decent.

Chris

<P ID="signature"><center>http://www.zophar.net/personal/mfc/wooty.jpg</center></P>

Canar 06-28-2004 04:40 PM

Re: Nice
 
> We need a new design. The scripting will be fit into a new
> design.

Ah. My offer was to convert the existing front page to use a CSS/XHTML compliant layout. From there, using CSS, it should be a breeze to design alternate layouts and designs, unless the desired layout changes drastically.

<P ID="signature"><center><hr width=468><a href='http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/psylight'>http://web.unbc.ca/~cookb/sr.png
</a>Now with comments!</center></P>

Audigy 06-28-2004 04:49 PM

Re: Nice
 

> You, sir, are a tard.

AkaneJones is a sir? <img src=smilies/laff.gif>

Anyway... I'm fascinated by the way CSS is shaping web design nowadays. I need to get my ass over to that Zen site and edumakate myself.

Don't listen to Mr. Jones... heck, his website still uses tables for crying out loud.

(ok, this is my one flame for the day, I'm done, I promise. It just honks me off when people spout off about crap they're too ignorant to learn about.)

<P ID="signature">--
Disclaimer: The opinions displayed here are those of an asexual. Sex/relationship advice may be inaccurate.
--
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psf_rippers/</P>

Narvick 06-28-2004 09:59 PM

Re: Nice
 
Don't forget InVerse was a dipshit.

<P ID="signature">:D!</P>

Narvick 06-28-2004 10:01 PM

Re: Make the news page several tables
 
We've had this conversation before amongst the staff. The reason the page takes long to load sometimes is because of the advertisements. Everything loads up fine until advertisements. The sidebar and main news tables are the last to load, so blame the ad servers.

<P ID="signature">:D!</P>


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.