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-   -   Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes (http://www.zophar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10925)

Richter X 05-12-2009 11:19 PM

Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes
 
I'll just leave this here....

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl.../05/12/0643208

Summary: Someone made a 98% complete hack of Chrono Trigger, essentially creating a fan-sequel to it. A few days ago, SquareEnix C&D'ed them. Also, why is this not on the news page already?

Isildur 05-13-2009 12:42 AM

Arrgh! What the hell? Why do people keep doing awesome CT projects and announce it every step of the way? Just work on it in secret and quietly release it when it's 100% done. No preview hacks , no trailer videos, no screenshots, no public project website! Release under pseudonyms when it's done, THEN bask in how awesome everyone says it is. Why do people never learn?

SivakDrac 05-13-2009 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isildur (Post 88851)
Arrgh! What the hell? Why do people keep doing awesome CT projects and announce it every step of the way? Just work on it in secret and quietly release it when it's 100% done. No previews hacks , no trailer videos, no screenshots, no public project website! Release under pseudonyms when it's done, THEN bask in how awesome everyone says it is. Why do people never learn?

Amen. I think having small teasers and info is a reasonable thing, but doing something every few weeks is ridiculous. Part of a game release ought to be the surprise of what all is in there.

This is why I've only shown the first area and boss of the game I'm making. BTW, I still love the tree graphics Isildur. You'll be in the credits. Hehe.

The 9th Sage 05-13-2009 03:35 AM

Yeah, I heard about this a few days ago...I wasn't sure if I should post it as news or not. It's really too bad...I've been looking forward to it. If Prophet's Guile, which was a sort of side story to Chrono Trigger detailing Magus' story after he summoned Lavos and got tossed back to the time of Zeal and what happened up to the time that Chrono and Co. got involved, was any indication, Crimson Echoes could have been great.

It seems they've taken down everything, including Prophet's Guile. I'm hoping I still have my patched ROM of that somewhere. I'd hate for it to fall by the wayside and never be seen again.

shawn 05-13-2009 05:20 AM

Chrono Trigger
 
This sucks. Chrono Triggers actually one of the very few games I like.

Burzy 05-13-2009 05:28 AM

If you have a hard time sage pm me
I'm playing right now :o

Isildur 05-13-2009 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawn (Post 88859)
This sucks. Chrono Triggers actually one of the very few games I like.

Yup, it royally blows. :banghead:
A part of me is hoping someone leaks out the 98% done version and it gets torrented, but on the other hand I worry that if that happens, S/E's lawyers will really sue the hackers, as they threatened. It would be terrible if any of the hackers' lives got badly messed up over this.
Dammit.

Reaper man 05-13-2009 10:21 AM

in b4 lillymon rant

The 9th Sage 05-13-2009 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burzy (Post 88860)
If you have a hard time sage pm me
I'm playing right now :o

Nah, I found my ROM of Prophet's Guile.

The 9th Sage 05-13-2009 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isildur (Post 88865)
Yup, it royally blows. :banghead:
A part of me is hoping someone leaks out the 98% done version and it gets torrented, but on the other hand I worry that if that happens, S/E's lawyers will really sue the hackers, as they threatened. It would be terrible if any of the hackers' lives got badly messed up over this.
Dammit.

That's about where I'm at...I kind of want a leak, but at the same time I'd hate it if anything happened to the people who made it as a result.

Lillymon 05-13-2009 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper man (Post 88866)
in b4 lillymon rant

I already said my piece in the linked Slashdot article, and that's all I ever plan to say about this.

snesmaster40 05-14-2009 01:20 PM

There's two threads about this on Romhacking.net and people there seemed to notice things that made it look like the C+D is fake, like for example there's no sig or name from the person that signs the e-mail.

The Crimson Echoes project was suppose to be released at the end of the month so it might be some kind of silly hype/advertising of the hack, but the team are saying it's real.

The 9th Sage 05-14-2009 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snesmaster40 (Post 88888)
There's two threads about this on Romhacking.net and people there seemed to notice things that made it look like the C+D is fake, like for example there's no sig or name from the person that signs the e-mail.

The Crimson Echoes project was suppose to be released at the end of the month so it might be some kind of silly hype/advertising of the hack, but the team are saying it's real.

On Chrono Compendium (the only site who's info on this I think I would trust without much question) the leader of the hack project said that they actually talked to Squeenix and it is indeed a real C+D.

I think that the people who keep saying how it's a fake letter to drum up advertising or some such thing are just wishful thinkers. I mean, it wouldn't even be the first time Square-Enix has done something like this. It isn't like no one has ever hacked Chrono Trigger either (Prophet's Guile being one example). Heck, Temporal Flux makes a lot of things much easier than they would be otherwise.

Isildur 05-14-2009 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 88869)
That's about where I'm at...I kind of want a leak, but at the same time I'd hate it if anything happened to the people who made it as a result.

After reading more on it (including the actual C&D letter) at the compendium site, I'm now really hoping no leak happens (unless SE has a change of heart). SE's lawyers have the hackers' names and addresses, and have stated that they'll be held personally liable for any leak, to the tune of up to a $150,000 fine, plus any possible criminal charges.

It's a sad situation, but there's no reasonable choice but to comply. I hope all beta testers cooperate, because otherwise they'll throw the hackers into a legal nightmare.

Shadow 05-14-2009 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isildur (Post 88897)
After reading more on it (including the actual C&D letter) at the compendium site, I'm now really hoping no leak happens (unless SE has a change of heart). SE's lawyers have the hackers' names and addresses, and have stated that they'll be held personally liable for any leak, to the tune of up to a $150,000 fine, plus any possible criminal charges.

It's a sad situation, but there's no reasonable choice but to comply. I hope all beta testers cooperate, because otherwise they'll throw the hackers into a legal nightmare.

The worst nightmare would be a torrent. EACH copy would result in $150.000 fine... So let's hope people stay cool.

Haoie 05-15-2009 02:04 AM

Just like, what was it called, Chrono Break? Dang.

Trigger needs a real sequal!! And no, Cross doesn't count.

InVerse 05-15-2009 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow (Post 88903)
The worst nightmare would be a torrent. EACH copy would result in $150,000 fine... So let's hope people stay cool.

No, each copy *could* result as a count in a lawsuit *requesting* $150,000.

Personally, I hope a leak occurs, Square Enix sues the hackers and they have the balls to face them in court and fight it. Of course, that will never happen because the emulation community has time-and-time again proven they have very little in the way of balls when it comes to legal challenges. (Which is odd, because one of the biggest complaints about the ROM hacking scene is an overabundance of testicles.)

Maybe I'll start on a little hack of Chrono Trigger myself, despite hating the game.

shawn 05-15-2009 04:54 PM

not only request $150K but the fact that there are free beta's already released prior to the letter has to be taken into account.

If a beta where released that was downloaded to someone the person receiving said letter and there was no way to tell by a normal person any of the people that downloaded the beta then the person who made the beta could not be held responsible for anything release PRIOR to the letter.

Also IF the lawyers representing DO NOT actively try to find and present all people that downloaded the beta with letters then the original party could not be held responsible for an unknown person doing something beyond their control, especially if said letter was given out AFTER original beta's were dispersed.

Now here's the fun part.

If someone whos ID is unknown by the original hacker, has a beta unknown to the original hacker, that was in their possession prior to the letter being received then legally since they have not received a letter then they could complete and release a final version and the original developer/letter receiver could not be held responsible for said release. The reason is because the lawyers sending the letter must have found out about the beta online snooping or from a person being a rat. Now when they realized the beta was out and they didn't go out and get warrants for all IP addresses of people downloading it, then send all beta downloaders letters informing them to destroy the beta and all copies and not to release it, copy it , ect, then they CANNOT hold the original hacker responsible in any way.

This letter now that I think about it can only be inforced if sent to all people in possession of a copy and all copies are in a known location or can be found and lettersender makes a full and I mean full attempt to find every copy in existence.

Basically it all means you can't be held responsible for an unknown persons actions or lack of. Especially if said unknown person was in possession of a beta prior to receiving the letter. That's just common law and common sense.

Just basically back down and if anything send back letter saying beta has been removed from site and all people working or beta's PC's, BUT, haha I love this part.
Also state a beta was released prior to receipt of this letter to the public and you have no way to know who downloaded it and have no way to control their actions.

The above statement just told them you have complied to the best of your ability but cannot be held responsible for release by an unknown 3rd party and I'ld also make a copy for a lawyer also.

Now when they send a letter saying you're in trouble for release of a beta you bring original letter, your letter, and this follow up to a lawyer. The lawyer will ask if the other lawyers had found all IP's "like in P2P lawsuits" and then sent letters to all persons downloading the original beta telling them not to distribute and to destroy the beta. If they had not then they cannot hold original hacker responsible since they themselves were negligent in contacting ALL people in possession of said beta.

I know it's long winded but anyone with law experience will tell you it's basically sound in it's reasoning. Sure they could TRY to sue but unless the judge is either stupid or paid off they are going to lose if they take it to court.

So remember if you comply fully and immediately you cannot be held responsible for crimes commited by an unknown 3rd party. Any court that would hold you responsible is in fact breaking the law and the judge should be removed from the bench.

Isildur 05-15-2009 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InVerse (Post 88927)
Personally, I hope a leak occurs, Square Enix sues the hackers and they have the balls to face them in court and fight it. Of course, that will never happen because the emulation community has time-and-time again proven they have very little in the way of balls when it comes to legal challenges. (Which is odd, because one of the biggest complaints about the ROM hacking scene is an overabundance of testicles.)

It's not a question of guts-- it wouldn't make much sense to fight it in court, because they would have zero chance of winning, at least in terms of a determination of whether or not it constitutes copyright infringement. (IANAL, so I don't know enough to speculate on what damages would actually be awarded.) Aside from any judgements, there would be lawyer fees. I can't fault people for not wanting their worlds turned upside-down for the sake of a hobby project. I mean, I get that you probably feel that a principle is at stake here, but who would we be to insist that they have some sort of responsibility to bear the burden of such a battle, that they have to be the ones to martyr themselves for the cause?

I don't like the fact that modern copyright law is so restrictive that some kid theoretically can, under the law, be sued for a dumb little Harry Potter fanfic he put up on the web, but fighting such things through the courts is futile. According to the copyright laws that have become standard around the world, during the copyright period of a work, the cration of derivative works, except for certain special exceptions like parody, is not permissible without the copyright-holder's consent. If that's to change, it'll have to be through legislative action, but I don't expect any signifficant changes on that score in our lifetimes, unfortunately.

In some places, like Japan, enforcement tends to be lax for certain type of derivative works (perhaps most notably for doujinshi comics), but in the end it's still up to the copyright holder whether to pursue the matter or not.

I hope this post made sense; I typed this all while feeling kind of dizzy and light-headed. Oh noes, swine flu! =P
Seriously though, it's probably just a result of not getting enough sleep this week.

Gil-Galad 05-16-2009 04:47 PM

I personally believe the C&D is a bunch of BS, since they haven't been able to produce any contact information or the letter stating the C&D. Nothing more than a ploy to stir up some drama about the project. Perhaps they are not skilled enough and/or not able to release the project and decided to close the project with some fake drama.

Mind you, there have been others to do this sort of thing in the past.

The 9th Sage 05-19-2009 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad (Post 88983)
Mind you, there have been others to do this sort of thing in the past.

I'm not so sure that's what they are doing. The demo of the game that was released a time ago had a lot of potential...it showed they had some good ideas and were executing them anyway. The "preview" videos also show things that I don't recall being in the demo.

snesmaster40 05-30-2009 10:59 AM

Apparently a 98% beta has been leaked. I don't know if it's true yet, but it was bound to happen.

The 9th Sage 05-30-2009 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snesmaster40 (Post 89495)
Apparently a 98% beta has been leaked. I don't know if it's true yet, but it was bound to happen.

Hm...if it is true, I certainly hope nothing happens to Chrono Compendium. I don't know how adamant Squeenix is on this kind of thing.
*edit*
It would seem to be true. Posting the ROM here or saying where to get it is a ban. We should respect the wishes of Chrono Compendium. I also want to note that people can stop saying the project was fake can definitely stop. You can trust me on this, I'd have no reason to lie about it, nor am I the type.

Lillymon 05-30-2009 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 89506)
I also want to note that people can stop saying the project was fake can definitely stop. You can trust me on this, I'd have no reason to lie about it, nor am I the type.

Now that I've got my hands on the leaked ROM, I can confirm this too. I'm definitely more inclined to believe the cease & desist letter was real now, and the hack does seem about 98% complete, with only some bits of NPC dialogue missing that I can see.

The 9th Sage 05-30-2009 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillymon (Post 89511)
Now that I've got my hands on the leaked ROM, I can confirm this too. I'm definitely more inclined to believe the cease & desist letter was real now, and the hack does seem about 98% complete, with only some bits of NPC dialogue missing that I can see.

Yeah...there are some bugs here and there, but I'm enjoying it so far. The chapter after the prologue is hard though. O_o

Dontbugme 05-30-2009 05:23 PM

It's not the 98% complete beta, it's a few months old.

The official gameplay videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSTpkMB9kNk



Villa Palmar Timeshare

The 9th Sage 05-30-2009 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dontbugme (Post 89514)
It's not the 98% complete beta, it's a few months old.

The official gameplay videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSTpkMB9kNk

Indeed, I figured that much. At any rate, it's a shame what's happened to it.

Lillymon 05-30-2009 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dontbugme (Post 89514)
It's not the 98% complete beta, it's a few months old.

Ah, I did suspect that myself, but figured the '98%' figure referred to the graphics, equipment, and new script, with the debug stuff and missing NPC text being the remaining 2%. But if this is a few months before the C&D letter, then I'm impressed. This is definitely a high quality hack, and it'd be a pity if the world never sees the near-finished product.

The 9th Sage 05-30-2009 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillymon (Post 89516)
Ah, I did suspect that myself, but figured the '98%' figure referred to the graphics, equipment, and new script, with the debug stuff and missing NPC text being the remaining 2%. But if this is a few months before the C&D letter, then I'm impressed. This is definitely a high quality hack, and it'd be a pity if the world never sees the near-finished product.

Yeah...I feel bad that the only way I could ever play it is this leaked copy of it. They obviously spent a lot of time on it, and it just goes to waste because Square-Enix hates fan projects.

I realize it's their copyright and within their rights, but it still seems like a shame since if anything this would have enhanced sales of the DS version of the original (in my opinion, since you pretty much need to play the SNES or DS versions to understand a bunch of this...Chrono Cross helps too).

Lillymon 05-30-2009 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 89517)
Yeah...I feel bad that the only way I could ever play it is this leaked copy of it. They obviously spent a lot of time on it, and it just goes to waste because Square-Enix hates fan projects.

I realize it's their copyright and within their rights, but it still seems like a shame since if anything this would have enhanced sales of the DS version of the original (in my opinion, since you pretty much need to play the SNES or DS versions to understand a bunch of this...Chrono Cross helps too).

Indeed, with Square-Enix doing very little (Chrono Trigger DS was just an exercise in laziness really), it's up to the fan projects to keep interest in the Chrono series alive. Unfortunately, Square-Enix's overzealous attempts to keep control are scaring talent away and pissing fans off. I've already decided it's time for me to take a break from Square-Enix games for a while, and that was pretty much all down to this one little project.

shawn 05-31-2009 08:14 AM

I was just on Digg and this hack was being discussed and a couple of responses I'll post here.

=================================


Ive contacted Squares legal department myself. They told me they never sent out a cease and desist for Crimson Echoes.

Either someone is lying or someone got sent a fake letter.


===================================


I called their legal department, the telephone number is 310-846-0400. Call them and ask them yourself. It might take a bit to get through though.


===================================


Thats because this all is bullshit. I got in touch with Squares legal department(Phone number, 310-846-0400) and when I was finally able to speak to someone, I was told they never sent out a cease and desist order for Crimson Echoes.

They started this drama because they were no where near done with the game. The admin from a famous rom hack site called Romhacking.net threatened to ban them from the site for starting all of this drama.


===================================


I already told you, man, by e-mail and PM

www.karlsonandkarlson.com

They defended my ass in the case Blizzard Inc. Vs. well... me... Concerning my Diablo 2 item shop (damn me for not being chinese and immune to US lawsuits)

They're specialized in intellectual property. Go to the website, e-mail joseph (preferably, my lawyer) and tell him Frank sent you. Really. Do it.

THIS FALL UNDER FAIR USE OF COPYRIGHT ACT. THIS IS EXACTLY LIKE A FANFICTION (see: fanctiction.net) AND THUS NOT ONLY TOLERATED BUT LEGAL. AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT CLAIM OWNERSHIP OF THE CHARACTERS OR SELL FOR A PROFIT THERE IS NOTHING ILLEGAL IN MAKING A FAN GAMES.


====================================

Intesting to say the least.

Lillymon 05-31-2009 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawn (Post 89561)
Intesting to say the least.

Well I thought so too, until I played the leaked ROM. At that point, the whole "They started this drama because they were no where near done with the game" shit becomes completely ridiculous because it's clearly a nearly-complete ROM hack. I'm inclined to think the others on Digg are just trolls trying to get attention, and nothing short of a public statement from Square-Enix can top-trump the actual ROM I've got here.

The 9th Sage 05-31-2009 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillymon (Post 89565)
Well I thought so too, until I played the leaked ROM. At that point, the whole "They started this drama because they were no where near done with the game" shit becomes completely ridiculous because it's clearly a nearly-complete ROM hack.

And the leaked build was apparently from 6 - 12 months ago, imagine what the 98% build must be like.

shawn 05-31-2009 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 89576)
And the leaked build was apparently from 6 - 12 months ago, imagine what the 98% build must be like.

I was actually focused on the point that this might be a drama, just might nothing more, since it said the admin of romhacking.net bitched them ought about it.

If anyone is friends with the admin at romhacking.net maybe you could check out if this is bullshit. I went to their forum and couldn't find any recent threads on crimson tide "I couldn't find a search for the forum so this was a browse of the thread names" and it makes me think that the admins deleted the threads if this is a fake drama. So if anyone knows an admin there try and find out what is going on as in is this real or just a publicity stunt.

The 9th Sage 05-31-2009 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawn (Post 89580)
I was actually focused on the point that this might be a drama, just might nothing more, since it said the admin of romhacking.net bitched them ought about it.

If anyone is friends with the admin at romhacking.net maybe you could check out if this is bullshit. I went to their forum and couldn't find any recent threads on crimson tide "I couldn't find a search for the forum so this was a browse of the thread names" and it makes me think that the admins deleted the threads if this is a fake drama. So if anyone knows an admin there try and find out what is going on as in is this real or just a publicity stunt.

That makes no sense though. It's proven by this old, leaked version that they put a ton of work into this, I'm afraid I don't understand why you'd think it's all fake.

*edit*
The C+D I mean. Why do all this work to NOT release it? You can tell they did the work, and were capable of doing the work (via the leak version and the videos on YouTube made of a play through of the near complete build during testing).

shawn 05-31-2009 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 89581)
That makes no sense though. It's proven by this old, leaked version that they put a ton of work into this, I'm afraid I don't understand why you'd think it's all fake.


No I don't think it's all fake. I think the hack may be awesome but the letter was done to make the release huge if it is fake. Why they would do something like that I have no idea if they did.

I just figured if someone knew the admin at romhacking.net they could find out if the admin bitched them out because it's bullshit or not, nothing else.

InVerse 06-02-2009 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawn (Post 89580)
I was actually focused on the point that this might be a drama, just might nothing more, since it said the admin of romhacking.net bitched them ought about it.

Keep in mind that the admin of romhacking.net is a lying piece of shit who steals people's work and benefits from it against their will.

Maximum Potion 06-02-2009 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InVerse (Post 89690)
Keep in mind that the admin of romhacking.net is a lying piece of shit who steals people's work and benefits from it against their will.

Really?

InVerse 06-02-2009 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximum Potion (Post 89698)
Really?

Yes. My stuff is hosted on that site without my permission and a DMCA takedown notice was ignored, so I'm in the process of taking legal action against the site.

The 9th Sage 06-02-2009 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InVerse (Post 89711)
Yes. My stuff is hosted on that site without my permission and a DMCA takedown notice was ignored, so I'm in the process of taking legal action against the site.

Wow. I know they are supposed to be an archive, but I know that if anyone had ever requested we take anything down from here it'd be down in a heart beat. That's pretty nasty to keep it up like that.

InVerse 06-03-2009 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 89718)
Wow. I know they are supposed to be an archive, but I know that if anyone had ever requested we take anything down from here it'd be down in a heart beat. That's pretty nasty to keep it up like that.

They got tired of people repeatedly requesting that their stuff be removed, due to so many people disliking the RHDN staff, so they put in a new "policy" that if you submit your own stuff, you can't request that it be removed. That doesn't apply to me, however, as I was rather incarcerated at the time my stuff was added to RHDN, so it clearly wasn't submitted by me. In fact, in one of their descriptions, they flat out admit that I said not to distribute a particular beta patch and then they go on to do so anyway.

So, I wouldn't take Nightcrawler's word for absolutely anything, especially something such as the Crimson Echoes debacle of which he played no part. (In fact, if you go to RHDN, you'll see that they've locked all threads related to Crimson Echoes and forbid anyone from discussing it in any form.)

Shadow 06-03-2009 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InVerse (Post 89738)
They got tired of people repeatedly requesting that their stuff be removed, due to so many people disliking the RHDN staff, so they put in a new "policy" that if you submit your own stuff, you can't request that it be removed. That doesn't apply to me, however, as I was rather incarcerated at the time my stuff was added to RHDN, so it clearly wasn't submitted by me. In fact, in one of their descriptions, they flat out admit that I said not to distribute a particular beta patch and then they go on to do so anyway.

So, I wouldn't take Nightcrawler's word for absolutely anything, especially something such as the Crimson Echoes debacle of which he played no part. (In fact, if you go to RHDN, you'll see that they've locked all threads related to Crimson Echoes and forbid anyone from discussing it in any form.)


Hard rules. But I think RHDN will continue until there's a better alternative.
It's always the same. If you say that so many others complain about RHDN, then start something better.

Regarding Chrimson Echoes @ RHDN: We shouldn't speculate too much. As long as there is no change on the official site, I go on and believe that the letter is real. And even if it is a fake, it doesn't bring us a final patch.
But the behaviour of RHDN is a little bit suspicious. Why should a romhacking site lock all topics of a romhacking project? It's weird. And I don't like it.

snesmaster40 06-03-2009 05:51 PM

I believe they locked it because it was beginning to make people angry (posts with death threats at Square Enix, ect).

InVerse 06-04-2009 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snesmaster40 (Post 89772)
I believe they locked it because it was beginning to make people angry (posts with death threats at Square Enix, ect).

Actually, if you go through old threads, you'll see that they have a history of locking any threads that don't agree with their own personal view on a particular subject. There are probably more than 100 threads that are locked, with the final post being one staff member or the other spouting off about why the original poster (or someone else in the thread) is wrong, and then locking the thread so that nobody can rebut the staff claims.

Of course, this is completely off topic. Regarding Crimson Echoes, I don't think anyone calling Square-Enix is going to be able to determine anything. If SE *didn't* send a C&D, they might still claim to have done so as a simple way of shutting down a copyright infringing project. I mean, think about it, if you ran a ROM site and got a C&D allegedly from Nintendo telling you to take it down, and then you called them to find out if they really did send one, they'd be pretty stupid to say no, because that would either encourage you to continue running the site or else would require them to then go out and send a real C&D in order to shut the site down.

On the other hand, if SE really did send out a C&D, they might lie to any uninvolved third parties that contact them in regards to the legitimacy of the C&D so as to prevent any ill will. It seems odd to me, however, that they would issue a C&D in regards to Crimson Echoes but not Prophet's Guile which was another hack (not as extensive, from what I've read) by the same people.

What a lot of people tend to forget is how exactly copyright law works. Even though Crimson Echoes wouldn't be sold for profit, even though you could potentially make a case that it could boost sales to Chrono Trigger DS (for the sake of argument), Square Enix is still legally obligated to protect their copyright. If they allow Crimson Echoes to go forward, they really have no legal basis for shutting down the next similar project, and after a few such projects, someone might decide to sell a Chrono Trigger hack for profit and, if SE attempted to sue them for doing so, a judge could very well look at all of the hacks that SE allowed to disseminate and rule that they had failed to protect their copyright and no longer possessed it.

The 9th Sage 06-04-2009 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InVerse (Post 89800)
On the other hand, if SE really did send out a C&D, they might lie to any uninvolved third parties that contact them in regards to the legitimacy of the C&D so as to prevent any ill will. It seems odd to me, however, that they would issue a C&D in regards to Crimson Echoes but not Prophet's Guile which was another hack (not as extensive, from what I've read) by the same people.

If I understand what they said on the Chrono Compendium (the home of these hacks) apparently Square told them to take down all that stuff (including Prophet's Guile and the Chrono retranslation). You'll notice that the entire hacking section is gone. Only trace of it left is the soundtrack. You'll find the link to the hack's page doesn't work. The album is worth a download if you like Chrono Trigger's music, btw (it has a lot of neat sounding variations of classic tunes). It's too bad about Prophet's Guile too, it was pretty good. It's not a whole game hack, but it's still probably about 8 - 10 hours of gameplay I'd say.

*edit*
Except that the soundtrack has the patch still within the zip. At least they were supposed to take it down (other things like the translation and the Collesium patch are definitely gone though). Perhaps I should notify them.

The 9th Sage 06-04-2009 07:39 PM

Argh...this video of the playthrough in particular is making me curse Square out even more.

This video. Since the embedding doesn't seem to be working right off for me.

shadowdorothy 06-05-2009 06:06 AM

I just heard this project just got shutdown. is it true?

Isildur 06-05-2009 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 89857)
Argh...this video of the playthrough in particular is making me curse Square out even more.

This video. Since the embedding doesn't seem to be working right off for me.

The playthrough is awesome.

The 9th Sage 06-05-2009 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowdorothy (Post 89890)
I just heard this project just got shutdown. is it true?

Yeah...about the closest we'll get to the near complete version of it is the video walkthrough they were working on before the C+D.

ZeaLitY 06-11-2009 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InVerse (Post 89800)
Actually, if you go through old threads, you'll see that they have a history of locking any threads that don't agree with their own personal view on a particular subject. There are probably more than 100 threads that are locked, with the final post being one staff member or the other spouting off about why the original poster (or someone else in the thread) is wrong, and then locking the thread so that nobody can rebut the staff claims.

I know it's off-topic, but I've always been curious why Romhacking.net had so much drama. The closure of the CE threads was an example of this ridiculous locking going on, but I'm pretty sure they already don't like the Compendium over there because of the Chrono Trigger Retranslation. I wonder why they're down right now, too...

Well, I'm glad my old Zophar account is still working. These forums look great.

InVerse 06-11-2009 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeaLitY (Post 90128)
I wonder why they're down right now, too...

Because of the vulnerability in HyperVM that resulted in over 100,000 sites being completely wiped out. (A vulnerability so bad that the creator of the software actually committed suicide as a result of all the damage.)

According to a thread on NC's personal forum, the site should be online again this weekend, albeit only current as of April 5th which was the last time anybody bothered to back it up. (But apparently, Neil is in the process of combing through Google's cache of the site, keeping track of updates that were made after April 5th so that they can be readded manually.

Isildur 06-12-2009 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InVerse (Post 90129)
Because of the vulnerability in HyperVM that resulted in over 100,000 sites being completely wiped out. (A vulnerability so bad that the creator of the software actually committed suicide as a result of all the damage.)

I can't imagine the vulnerability helped (perhaps it was the straw that broke the camel's back) but it sounds like he was troubled well before the vulnerability was exploited. (As an aside, is it just me being stuffy, or does it sound kind of oddly crude to slangily refer to an accomplished software company owner merely as some "techie" in the headline of an article delivering the news of his death?)

The 9th Sage 06-12-2009 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeaLitY (Post 90128)
I know it's off-topic, but I've always been curious why Romhacking.net had so much drama. The closure of the CE threads was an example of this ridiculous locking going on, but I'm pretty sure they already don't like the Compendium over there because of the Chrono Trigger Retranslation. I wonder why they're down right now, too...

Well, I'm glad my old Zophar account is still working. These forums look great.

O_o! Nice to have you Zeality. This is kind of a weird surprise. I was just watching some more of the gameplay videos and thinking about the hack, and *poof*. :P

Isildur 06-12-2009 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 90137)
O_o! Nice to have you Zeality.

Indeed. As you can see, we're bummed about the way things turned out.
Which I imagine can't compare to how frustrated you and all the people who worked on it must feel. :(

Even though fate (well, a legal department, anyway) intervened and didn't allow it to come to full fruition as a completed hack, thank you and the rest of CC/KL for the effort.

ZeaLitY 06-12-2009 06:33 AM

We're just happy to have the videos rolling. Seeing the feedback has given us enough of a sense of accomplishment that we don't feel mortally embittered or anything...

I've been curious though; what's the state of the ROM hacking community? I remember people at RHDN saying everything was in some sort of slow decline, but I'm not really involved enough in the community to know what's going on. To contribute to the discussion, I had the idea for doing high profile projects like these (CE, the FF6 hack, a new Sonic, or translating very popular and still-untranslated works or something) to attract attention. Something like, temporarily drawing on the talent of many people time to time for popular efforts. Working on a full-size hack like CE, I really wondered sometimes how much faster development would have been if, instead of a handful of people familiar with the CT ROM chipping in information time to time and one person coding, we could have tapped into the full power of the community, making use of several experts or ASM specialists, and so on. An awful lot of CE's greatest achievements came only very recently in the history of the Chrono Trigger community, like inserting custom SPCs converted from MMLs, documenting assembly enough to make complicated graphic hacks possible, decoding some unknown event commands or pinning down DrawGeometry...

I guess it's a pipe dream to have a community united enough to do something like that...

AkaneJones 06-12-2009 06:37 AM

I say it's all bull. I don't know if the C&D letter is fake or not, however I know that C&D letters aren't threats of real legal action, on these sort of things. It does indeed fall under fair use, it's a rom hack. I just means someone either didn't like what they were doing, or it was a cruel joke caused by that 3D Chrono Remake getting shut down. That one was illegal since it was an attempt to rebuild Chrono Trigger 1 to 1.

Square-Enix would never waste time actually pursuing it as a real case. I mean, I dout CT would be an exclusive target of this while every single big hack of Final Fantasy 1-6 gets ignored entirely. It's just to stir up crap and nothing more. It was just a free fan made patch to turn CT into a pseudo sequel, nothing more, nothing less. Plenty of FF hack do the same, like Dragoon X Omega. It's a whole new game running on the FF1 engine.

This is like when Cutepet got scared by a C&D letter, or the Penny Arcade Strawberry Shortcake fiasco. It is just strong arm tactics to scare you into stop doing things they don't like.

Isildur 06-12-2009 08:51 AM

Unfortunately, S-E has the legal resources to put plenty of bite behind the bark, Akane. For a company of that size, taking someone to court is not a difficult matter. The courts would likely find in favor of S-E, as this doesn't fall wholly within categories like educational use, parody, or reviewing.

Even in the case of Penny Arcade (where the webcomic team wisely complied with the C&D) they weren't in the clear as far as parody goes because they weren't parodying the Strawberry Shortcake character herself so much as using Strawberry Shortcake to parody American McGee-- a distinction that matters for such cases, if my understanding is correct.

Just because other projects have been released without repurcussions doesn't mean that CE could expect that, once an actual C&D was sent. I'm not sure if InVerse is correct about companies having to defend any copyright violation that comes to their attention (my recollection, at least, is that copyrights are given for a certain amount of time, period, while trademarks have to be defended against dilution/infrinngement or the owners will lose exclusive claim to them), however, the CE team had every reason to fear that S-E would follow through on their threat. An actual cease and desist letter from a company with good legal representation is not to be taken lightly: Large companies tend to take intellectual property seriously, and once they have embarked on a course of legal action, it's easily imaginable that they would be loath to reverse course, for fear of encouraging others to flout their legal demands.

Even releasing the playthrough videos is somewhat risky, but hopefully no harm will come of it.

The 9th Sage 06-12-2009 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkaneJones (Post 90156)
It is just strong arm tactics to scare you into stop doing things they don't like.

Oh, no doubt it is a strong arm tactic. That said, they sent a C+D, and they have more money than all of us put together that they could use to pursue this if they wanted to. As Agent12 more or less said, as much as it stinks, is it worth possibly screwing your life the hell up to fight it?

snesmaster40 06-12-2009 11:50 PM

The main annoying thing is that they seem to target Chrono Trigger related hacks while all the Final Fantasy hacks are left alone.

The 9th Sage 06-13-2009 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snesmaster40 (Post 90181)
The main annoying thing is that they seem to target Chrono Trigger related hacks while all the Final Fantasy hacks are left alone.

I have NEVER understood this either. They seem to go crazy on Chrono fan projects, yet FF stuff...

InVerse 06-13-2009 08:37 AM

I would venture a guess that it has to do with fanbase. Eliminate all of the hardcore gamers and Final Fantasy would still sell a metric fuckton of games, whereas 99% of Chrono Trigger's fanbase *is* those hardcore gamers, based on my experiences.

The 9th Sage 06-13-2009 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InVerse (Post 90207)
I would venture a guess that it has to do with fanbase. Eliminate all of the hardcore gamers and Final Fantasy would still sell a metric fuckton of games, whereas 99% of Chrono Trigger's fanbase *is* those hardcore gamers, based on my experiences.

Fair enough...but even so, when you put it this way, it sounds a lot like they are shooting themselves in the foot.

Reaper man 06-14-2009 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 90167)
Oh, no doubt it is a strong arm tactic. That said, they sent a C+D, and they have more money than all of us put together that they could use to pursue this if they wanted to. As Agent12 more or less said, as much as it stinks, is it worth possibly screwing your life the hell up to fight it?

do you really think it would be smart for a company to pursue the C&D when it would cost them money in lawyer fees for something that isn't even a financial risk for them. I still think their bluffing. If I was in the hackers shoes, I would have told them to go fuck themselves. Even if they did follow through and try to sue me, they would get nothing. I have no assets. I would have nothing to lose. The most they could do is throw me in prison, and if they did I'd probably make the news, and give them a pretty bad rep.

The 9th Sage 06-14-2009 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper man (Post 90238)
The most they could do is throw me in prison, and if they did I'd probably make the news, and give them a pretty bad rep.

You don't seem to get what I was saying. :P

InVerse 06-14-2009 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper man (Post 90238)
do you really think it would be smart for a company to pursue the C&D when it would cost them money in lawyer fees for something that isn't even a financial risk for them. I still think their bluffing. If I was in the hackers shoes, I would have told them to go fuck themselves. Even if they did follow through and try to sue me, they would get nothing. I have no assets. I would have nothing to lose. The most they could do is throw me in prison, and if they did I'd probably make the news, and give them a pretty bad rep.

You do realize that pretty much any company the size of SE has a legal team on retainer, don't you? It likely wouldn't cost SE anything that they're not already paying if they chose to take someone to court.

And they would get something. In fact, they'd get exactly what they sought. A company suing someone for $150,000 (or whatever random amount you assign) isn't about getting the money, it's about averting future problems. If you were to lose a lawsuit, it's going to make a majority of other potential offenders think long and hard before they do the same thing. And, presuming SE won the suit, it would also set a legal precedent that could be used to their advantage in the future.

As for getting nothing from you, you obviously know very little about how the legal system works. Unless you're one of the lucky few who doesn't have to work for a living, they can quite easily get something from you, as evidenced by the 15% of my paycheck that disappears before I ever see it.


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