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-   -   Important info on ROMs (http://www.zophar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9179)

Rattlehead 07-13-2008 09:51 PM

Important info on ROMs
 
I found a law that offers exemptions for older game systems. Therefore, that would make hosting commercial ROMs for older game systems (i.e. Atari 2600 to Dreamcast) legal to host! This is the part of that law, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, that exempts older games from being illegal:

17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(1)
"...computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

For further info on the DMCA: click here

SparroHawc 07-14-2008 02:31 AM

Note: There is a loophole; if a game is currently distributable by the owner of the copyright, it could be interpreted that a game is no longer 'distributed in a format that has become obsolete', because it is being distributed in an updated format. This will include any games available for the Wii Virtual Console, for instance.

Rattlehead 07-14-2008 04:32 AM

That would be the case if that amendment were made. As it currently stands, that hasn't been amended to the DMCA, so therefore it is legal. According to Wikipedia, the anti-circumvention exemptions were added in 2003, and it (the DMCA) was last updated in 2006.

Edman 07-14-2008 01:05 PM

Well, as I said, there's 2 issues here really:

1. Are we interpreting this correctly? I have a feeling this allows making of a single backup for archival purposes because preservation of the original is in danger. What is really meant by a "library" and an "archive" here? Does this law even mention distribution?

2. Do we really want to annoy Nintendo & co. into a million dollar lawsuit? Everyone here would be right and we'd still lose just because they have more money.


However, on that note, why doesn't Nintendo shut down ROM sites? There are soooo many ROM sites around, many have traffic levels of what looks like well above a million unique users a month, they are very old, they distribute very new stuff (Nintendo DS games, even), and yet, nothing happens. What is up with that?

Kojote 07-14-2008 10:18 PM

lots of publishers usually resell rights for their old games and have them remade for newer systems. that way you would immediatly have a interest conflict.

i would say let commercial be commercial.

packardmelan 07-15-2008 01:42 AM

YOU found this? -- No, this argument has been brought up many times before. With things like the Virtual Console, XBLA and PSN, many games are being re-released in forms that will keep these games 'current'.

Beyond that, with all of these clones on the open market - like the NES/SNES combos I can find at a local reseller, that means compatible hardware is available in the commercial market... thus keeping those games protected. You can still find the Dreamcast pretty easily, along with many older systems.

Beyond which, "backups" are allowed in many cases - but they are backups that you, yourself, have made personally. Unless explicitly stated by the license holder, sharing "roms" is actually quite illegal -- even if you own the original cart. See, the idea is that you have the right to physically backup a media to preserve its use. IE: I can take a VHS tape and use a PC and copy the video and audio off, and put it on a DVD for archive purposes/reuse -- through the personal use measure. However, if I then give that copied DVD to a friend, I've broken the law. I do not have a license to distribute that media.

Roms are the same.

packardmelan 07-15-2008 01:44 AM

Um... I can't edit my own posts. I wanted to remove that second "Beyond which". :D

Xeon3D 07-15-2008 05:28 AM

I also vote that we keep off Commercial Roms. There are PLEEENTY of Sites \ Ways to get them.

Nice to see you aboard Kojote! (Not that you remember me though..)

leilei 07-15-2008 08:39 AM

What about those unlicensed ones?

Rattlehead 07-15-2008 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edman (Post 79806)
Well, as I said, there's 2 issues here really:

1. Are we interpreting this correctly? I have a feeling this allows making of a single backup for archival purposes because preservation of the original is in danger. What is really meant by a "library" and an "archive" here? Does this law even mention distribution?

2. Do we really want to annoy Nintendo & co. into a million dollar lawsuit? Everyone here would be right and we'd still lose just because they have more money.


However, on that note, why doesn't Nintendo shut down ROM sites? There are soooo many ROM sites around, many have traffic levels of what looks like well above a million unique users a month, they are very old, they distribute very new stuff (Nintendo DS games, even), and yet, nothing happens. What is up with that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by packardmelan (Post 79874)
YOU found this? -- No, this argument has been brought up many times before. With things like the Virtual Console, XBLA and PSN, many games are being re-released in forms that will keep these games 'current'.

Beyond that, with all of these clones on the open market - like the NES/SNES combos I can find at a local reseller, that means compatible hardware is available in the commercial market... thus keeping those games protected. You can still find the Dreamcast pretty easily, along with many older systems.

Beyond which, "backups" are allowed in many cases - but they are backups that you, yourself, have made personally. Unless explicitly stated by the license holder, sharing "roms" is actually quite illegal -- even if you own the original cart. See, the idea is that you have the right to physically backup a media to preserve its use. IE: I can take a VHS tape and use a PC and copy the video and audio off, and put it on a DVD for archive purposes/reuse -- through the personal use measure. However, if I then give that copied DVD to a friend, I've broken the law. I do not have a license to distribute that media.

Roms are the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leilei (Post 79907)
What about those unlicensed ones?


1. Edman, after so long I would imagine that they realized that there are WAY too many sites to take every one of those webmasters to court. It would take an enormous amount of time and money. Also, I see WAY less ROM sites that offer games for newer systems. The newest I've seen around is the Dreamcast.

2. Okay, where to start with packardmelan? I'm tired of this, so fine. I'll let you call them "current"...but what about games that were released by companies that are now exclusive to a different company? Take Rare, for instance. They released Banjo-Kazooie on the N64, then get absorbed by Microsoft. They own the franchise, but Nintendo has the games. I'm not saying that there won't be a Banjo game for the Xbox 360, but that Nintendo can't release the current Banjo games in the Virtual Console w/out Rare's permission...which I doubt they'll get from Microsoft. Secondly, where are you finding NES/SNES combos? The closest that I've seen to that are those 100,000-in-1 bootleg consoles...which if what you're saying is true, is illegal. I've also never seen one of those at any local resellers in Northwest Arkansas, where I live which is a region of about 250,000+ people. And Dreamcasts are quite rare in the gaming stores around here. Lastly, I'm not talking about movies, which are not mentioned in the exemption for video games that I posted.

3. Xeon3D, I'm starting to agree. I'm getting pretty tired of this.

4. Leilei, unlicensed ROMs would be fine due to there not being a license for the game.

Iconoclast 07-15-2008 03:55 PM

Obviously there's no legal risk behind what you write here, but that doesn't mean there's just no risk.

I've learned to judge emulation sites that actually provide the images in general as undignified and untrustworthy in other areas of information. I have never seen a site as complete as Zophar's Domain in that aspect. Some people who view this website could even take offense if we were to apply this. And I'm sure one easy concept for us to understand is the great population of people using emulators made for lazy people and whining for restricted ROMs; naturally theft still multiplies across online.

To not apply this makes this site stand out as a memorial.

The 9th Sage 07-15-2008 04:10 PM

Uh, yeah, what PackardMelan says is right. I highly doubt he's purposely trying to offend you Rattlehead, I know him pretty well. It has always been this way...it is legal to make a backup for yourself (if say I want to back up my Mother 3 cart and use that backup, it is my right) but distributing it to others? Not so much.

Same with music (you can make a personal backup, despite what the RIAA might try to tell you). A lot of people don't bat an eye at downloading a torrent of albums these days, but does that make it legal to distribute it? Nope.

leilei 07-15-2008 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlehead (Post 79908)
4. Leilei, unlicensed ROMs would be fine due to there not being a license for the game.

Not exactly, since they would still be copyrighted. No Nintendo blessing sure, but still copyrighted. It would be embarrassing if Wisdom Tree Games C&D'd their crap games from Zophar.

And I can't edit my own posts in this forum?

the_importer 07-16-2008 12:41 AM

Just going to add my 2 cents... who gives a fuck today anyway?

After being into emulation for 10 years, I can say for certain that neither Nintendo or SEGA give a damn about console emulation on PC (well Nintendo use to worry about the N64 when it when it came out and they're still looking at GBA and NDS emulation, but that's beside the point).

Planetemu has been one of the best source out there for getting GOOD_ROM dumps for the past 7 years now and they're still alive and kicking. Nintendo hasn't warned them before or after the Wii came out with it's Virtual Console service.

Fact remains, people who want to pay for old games will, people who don't won't. If I didn't have a micro ATX PC connected to my LCD TV with Wireless gamepads, I probably would embrace the VC, but as it stands, I do have all of this, so Nintendo strategy of selling my childhood birthday presents for 500 to 1000 Wii Points is not doing for me.

Guess what folks, it's also illegal to post pictures and art of copyrighted material without permission, but people do it anyway. And it's also illegal to spit your gum on the ground, but people do that anyway as well.

What I'm trying to point out is that there are different levels of piracy or any other crimes and emulation fits into the bottom. Software companies are much more worried about people selling bootlegged copies of their latest softwares then people downloading games for which they have long stop carrying about.

Rattlehead 07-16-2008 03:17 AM

Okay, info overload. Nah, just kidding. Anyway...9th Sage, he's in no way offended me. I just got a little heated due to some personal issues that I'm trying to deal with right now in my life.

Packardmelan, I'd like to apologize for going off on you like that. You're right and I'm sorry I took my anger out on you.

Leilei, I was mistaken. A copyright grants legal exclusivity to the copyright holder. A license lets allows the license holder to use the copyrighted material legally.

The_importer, I look at emulation the same way, in that game companies don't seem to give a fuck about older systems anymore. I don't use the VC either, because I'm unemployed and can play the same games for free. I think it's funny that you brought up art of copyrighted materials because the instances of that happening are extremely common, and no one says a word about it.

Anyway, I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my behavior, and would like to close by saying that I've changed my outlook on the situation. I think it would be legal to put up a "links" section to ROM sites, right?

the_importer 07-16-2008 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlehead (Post 79950)

Anyway, I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my behavior, and would like to close by saying that I've changed my outlook on the situation. I think it would be legal to put up a "links" section to ROM sites, right?

Here's a good start: http://www.planetemu.net/index.php?section=roms&dat=715

Xeon3D 07-16-2008 12:42 PM

Why, why, why are we even speaking of copyrighted material? If we're adding those, we might as well start an exploit section with exploits for the various consoles, with links to offsite copyrighted stuff...

I think you're missing the point of ZD.

If all of you who want to spend time (maybe lots of) updating and adding commercial or doubtful roms to the site, spent the same amount updating the emulation section with releases (old releases that are still newer than the files on ZD and with no need for a newspost, or maybe just a general one saying "all the emulators have been updates where possible"), or even just helping in your area of choice, maybe ZD would be in a better shape than what it is ATM.

I can't really tell if this is true, but it seems to me that most content managers are kinda "new" to ZD. Maybe you've been a part of the old forums for a long time, maybe not. I can only remember some of you from the old times (The 9th Sage, Iconoclast, Lillymon as well but she's not a content manager I think.) and sincerely I can't remember any of you being part of the old ZD Staffer team.

I wish you could have been part of the Staff on the good old days. Then you would know what the true spirit of ZD was at those times.

For commercial roms there are sites with way more content and with a more effective system than ZD has. There are torrent files with full sets for most of the systems, even CD based ones as the Saturn.

ZD was never about roms \ piracy even if it could be exploited not to look as if it was piracy.

ZD was about emulation to the full extent of it, the technology, the scene, the completeness of it's archives, so that even in a (maybe not so) distant future, people could see what we were doing in 2008 just as now people can still see how the emulation scene was in 2000.

I used to spend hours making news posts and updating the old html based archive. In fact I might still hold the record for most (quality) newsposts in a row (28 I believe it was). I'd spent countless hours looking for news on sites, in times where there wasn't such a thing as a RSS feed, I'd upload 4 and 8Mb files on a 56k dialup connection, all that because I loved (and still do) love the emulation and the emulation scene. I've never updated a ROM (not even a PD one), not because it wasn't my job (it really wasn't, there was another staff for that section), but because I thought (and still do) that ROMS wasn't what ZD was all about.

Even as I speak, it's 2 PM at the moment where I live, I didn't sleep yet, but there are no new emulator releases since my last newspost. Sure there are plenty of old ones to update and I'll get to that as well, but I'm going to sleep thinking I did a good job and that maybe I helped so that this stupid (IMHO) discussion ends.

I wish we could have Brad's or Sam's opinion on this. I'd really like to read them.

Oh, the good old days...


Have you read Zophar's Emulation Dream article recently?

The 9th Sage 07-16-2008 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 79970)
Why, why, why are we even speaking of copyrighted material? If we're adding those, we might as well start an exploit section with exploits for the various consoles, with links to offsite copyrighted stuff...

I agree with you whole-heartedly except on this one point. The exploits themselves do not equate piracy. Take the Twilight Hack. There is some neat stuff you can do with it that is definitely not piracy (ie playing an awesome port of QuakeGL on your Wii). The sad fact is that, of course, someone with know how will eventually say to themselves..."Can I do this? Maybe I can pirate (for example) Virtual Console channels this way...".

In this example, the hombrew has plenty of legitimate uses, and even the program that you can use to pirate the VC channels has some legitimate uses (installing homebrew Wii channels)...it is just sadly used by pirates too.

Anyway, that was a bit rant-like. That is just something that bothers me. :P Besides that, excellent post man.

Xeon3D 07-16-2008 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 79973)
I agree with you whole-heartedly except on this one point. The exploits themselves do not equate piracy. Take the Twilight Hack. There is some neat stuff you can do with it that is definitely not piracy (ie playing an awesome port of QuakeGL on your Wii). The sad fact is that, of course, someone with know how will eventually say to themselves..."Can I do this?

As you say, then every exploit can be used for homebrew. So we can use them all, the Pandora thingy / Firmwares for PSP, ooooohhhh homebrew, FreeMCLoad for PS2 or Swap trick was only for homebrew as well, Nintendo DS WifiMe etc only started for homebrew as well!

In my opinion, it reeks of irony, every time a new exploit is released because they always announce they found out a new way to run homebrew code, but someone *always* finds a way to boot "backup" games out of it. I wonder if there's any exploit out there that can only run homebrew and not pirate copies even if it needs another program on top of it.

Sorry about the "rant-liness" of the posts. It's sometimes my fault for writing them that way added with the fact that my English is still not as good as if I was a native speaker, so my word choices may make it a little ranty. Also, sometimes, I can't just help it when people are trying to make something look like it's all right when in fact it is not!

Paladyn 07-16-2008 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 79979)
As you say, then every exploit can be used for homebrew. So we can use them all, the Pandora thingy / Firmwares for PSP, ooooohhhh homebrew, FreeMCLoad for PS2 or Swap trick was only for homebrew as well, Nintendo DS WifiMe etc only started for homebrew as well!

In my opinion, it reeks of irony, every time a new exploit is released because they always announce they found out a new way to run homebrew code, but someone *always* finds a way to boot "backup" games out of it. I wonder if there's any exploit out there that can only run homebrew and not pirate copies even if it needs another program on top of it.

Why bother going through all that effort? I don't see what's so wrong about cramming 18 DS games you bought onto a flash card so you don't have to carry around all of them; or, in the case of the PSP, one or two games off of your MS Pro Duo so you don't waste battery charge on running the UMD drive. I don't consider any of that pirating.

Quote:

Sorry about the "rant-liness" of the posts. It's sometimes my fault for writing them that way added with the fact that my English is still not as good as if I was a native speaker, so my word choices may make it a little ranty. Also, sometimes, I can't just help it when people are trying to make something look like it's all right when in fact it is not!
Whatever. Your English is better than many native speakers.

As for the original topic, rattlehead is not a lawyer. While I'm not one either, it does help sometimes if you read the laws, rulings, and exceptions. The ruling applies to the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA. That means that it only allows certain people (libraries and archives) to bypass copy protection measures in order to serve their function as a library / archive. While the legal definition of what an archive is or isn't could be a little murky, the organization would still have to own a copy of the original work. Furthermore, the copy they would get from circumventing any of the original work's copy protection would be for archival purposes only. This ruling doesn't let you offer games to everyone and his brother.

Chapu 07-16-2008 07:38 PM

Well, I mostly agree on many opinions I've read in this thread so far. ZD should *not* be a place where to find illegal ROMs. There's plenty of other sites for that.
What I come to ZD for is the... ambience, for lack of a better word. I know that here I'll find people who truly love gaming, as I do, and I'll be able to share experiences and in-jokes with them. And hell, maybe download a translation patch, a public domain rom or two, or some technical documentation.
I've asked for this on another thread before, but you know what? To all of you guys who'd like ZD to keep with it's original spirit, and in the meantime help even a little bit to stop piracy, why don't you upload guides to make ROM dumpers for different systems? God knows that if I ever find one, I'd build it ASAP and start dumping all of my carts. Even some crazy HK originals I have that arne't around the inet, just for historical purposes. After all, I'm pretty sure those aren't illegal to have, right?

Xeon3D 07-16-2008 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladyn (Post 79986)
Why bother going through all that effort? I don't see what's so wrong about cramming 18 DS games you bought onto a flash card so you don't have to carry around all of them; or, in the case of the PSP, one or two games off of your MS Pro Duo so you don't waste battery charge on running the UMD drive. I don't consider any of that pirating.

No. That may not be piracy. But that's what all flash cart owners do right? Just for their own games. Please do note that what I'm going to say afterwards may not apply to you. I'm not saying that you do pirate, but there's a word in my language ("cínico" which roughly translates to "one who says one thing and makes the point that that's only what he does while he does completely the opposite", I don't know the translation to english).
Most people, as soon as this topic goes into debate say that that's all they use their flashcards \ exploits \ modchips for. That and homebrew of course.
I don't really understand why there are so many ROM sites and why commercial ROMs are so requested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladyn (Post 79986)
Whatever. Your English is better than many native speakers.

Thank you. I reckon it's quite good, but there's another level that I plan to achieve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladyn (Post 79986)
As for the original topic, rattlehead is not a lawyer. While I'm not one either, it does help sometimes if you read the laws, rulings, and exceptions. The ruling applies to the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA. That means that it only allows certain people (libraries and archives) to bypass copy protection measures in order to serve their function as a library / archive. While the legal definition of what an archive is or isn't could be a little murky, the organization would still have to own a copy of the original work. Furthermore, the copy they would get from circumventing any of the original work's copy protection would be for archival purposes only. This ruling doesn't let you offer games to everyone and his brother.

So basically, what you're saying is that it's illegal to host commercial ROMs. That's all I've been telling these guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chapu (Post 79988)
Well, I mostly agree on many opinions I've read in this thread so far. ZD should *not* be a place where to find illegal ROMs. There's plenty of other sites for that.

True. Will the thread opener please add a poll to the topic? I'd love to see the results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chapu (Post 79988)
What I come to ZD for is the... ambience, for lack of a better word. I know that here I'll find people who truly love gaming, as I do, and I'll be able to share experiences and in-jokes with them. And hell, maybe download a translation patch, a public domain rom or two, or some technical documentation.

Spirit maybe? :) I totally agree with the rest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chapu (Post 79988)
I've asked for this on another thread before, but you know what? To all of you guys who'd like ZD to keep with it's original spirit, and in the meantime help even a little bit to stop piracy, why don't you upload guides to make ROM dumpers for different systems? God knows that if I ever find one, I'd build it ASAP and start dumping all of my carts. Even some crazy HK originals I have that arne't around the inet, just for historical purposes. After all, I'm pretty sure those aren't illegal to have, right?

To my knowledge there aren't that many "homemade ROM copier" how-to, schematics or diagrams. Your best bet could be buying a used one from eBay / CG. Other option would be finding a respected scene member that owns a copier and send the carts to him. People used (and maybe still do) to use that scheme with arcade boards for the MAME project. And, yes, I don't think those would be illegal to have since you own a physical copy of the "work" so the copy you made can indeed be called a Backup which is allowed by your Law.

Also, I don't think we're here to help stop piracy. We're just not promoting (?) it. Note that this is a topic about ZD. I don't think we should give a crap about what other websites do, and I don't really know of an Emulation Website that does indeed distribute commercial ROMs (note that I'm speaking about Emulation websites and not those ROM sites that also distribute the emulators as well.).

To finish, I'd like to thank you all for your opinions on this, even if I think that this discussion shouldn't be here on the first place. It is Zophar's Domain afterall.

the_importer 07-16-2008 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 79970)
Why, why, why are we even speaking of copyrighted material? If we're adding those, we might as well start an exploit section with exploits for the various consoles, with links to offsite copyrighted stuff...

I think you're missing the point of ZD.

If all of you who want to spend time (maybe lots of) updating and adding commercial or doubtful roms to the site, spent the same amount updating the emulation section with releases (old releases that are still newer than the files on ZD and with no need for a newspost, or maybe just a general one saying "all the emulators have been updates where possible"), or even just helping in your area of choice, maybe ZD would be in a better shape than what it is ATM.

I can't really tell if this is true, but it seems to me that most content managers are kinda "new" to ZD. Maybe you've been a part of the old forums for a long time, maybe not. I can only remember some of you from the old times (The 9th Sage, Iconoclast, Lillymon as well but she's not a content manager I think.) and sincerely I can't remember any of you being part of the old ZD Staffer team.

I wish you could have been part of the Staff on the good old days. Then you would know what the true spirit of ZD was at those times.

For commercial roms there are sites with way more content and with a more effective system than ZD has. There are torrent files with full sets for most of the systems, even CD based ones as the Saturn.

ZD was never about roms \ piracy even if it could be exploited not to look as if it was piracy.

ZD was about emulation to the full extent of it, the technology, the scene, the completeness of it's archives, so that even in a (maybe not so) distant future, people could see what we were doing in 2008 just as now people can still see how the emulation scene was in 2000.

I used to spend hours making news posts and updating the old html based archive. In fact I might still hold the record for most (quality) newsposts in a row (28 I believe it was). I'd spent countless hours looking for news on sites, in times where there wasn't such a thing as a RSS feed, I'd upload 4 and 8Mb files on a 56k dialup connection, all that because I loved (and still do) love the emulation and the emulation scene. I've never updated a ROM (not even a PD one), not because it wasn't my job (it really wasn't, there was another staff for that section), but because I thought (and still do) that ROMS wasn't what ZD was all about.

Even as I speak, it's 2 PM at the moment where I live, I didn't sleep yet, but there are no new emulator releases since my last newspost. Sure there are plenty of old ones to update and I'll get to that as well, but I'm going to sleep thinking I did a good job and that maybe I helped so that this stupid (IMHO) discussion ends.

I wish we could have Brad's or Sam's opinion on this. I'd really like to read them.

Oh, the good old days...


Have you read Zophar's Emulation Dream article recently?

Zophar has long hosted Music taken directly from old school video games, that's technically illegal and any company who owns the right to these could force you to remove them. You can't be against once type of piracy and the turn around and allow another, so how do you JUSTIFY this?

BTW, your answer can't be "Because it's not as bad as hosting ROMs" because my answer is going to be "But hosting ROMs is not as bad hosting bootleg movies and commercial games".

As for the nostalgia part, get over it, times change, you can't live in the past.

Chapu 07-16-2008 11:07 PM

You're right, Xeon. I may have not expressed myself quite properly when I wrote "stop piracy". English isn't my native language either, actually that'd be Spanish, just like you (y entiendo perfectamente bien a lo que te referís con lo de "cínicos" :-D ).
Of course we shouldn't, as far as ZD goes, care about what the crap other websites are doing. But I could never help but wonder... How is it possible that so many people cry of "Piracy!" and at the same time the minimum tools and knowledge to prevent it (or at least diminish it) are not as readily available to the public just like the piracy itself is? I'm even starting to suspect there's some kind of economical interest involved in people not being able to legally make backup copies of the soft their own... Currently, the only reliable way to have a dumper of your own is to have an Electronics Engineering PhD or something!
Whatever be the case, I'll be retuning for sure to ZD, as I find it to be the single best community for serious emulation.

Paladyn 07-16-2008 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 79990)
No. That may not be piracy. But that's what all flash cart owners do right? Just for their own games. Please do note that what I'm going to say afterwards may not apply to you. I'm not saying that you do pirate, but there's a word in my language ("cínico" which roughly translates to "one who says one thing and makes the point that that's only what he does while he does completely the opposite", I don't know the translation to english).

The English word is hypocrite.

Quote:

Most people, as soon as this topic goes into debate say that that's all they use their flashcards \ exploits \ modchips for. That and homebrew of course.
I don't really understand why there are so many ROM sites and why commercial ROMs are so requested.
They're requested because people are cheap bastards. That will always be the case, but I don't see why legitimate uses should be curtailed because of people who are causing the real problem. Go after the ROM sites, not the modchips.

Quote:

So basically, what you're saying is that it's illegal to host commercial ROMs. That's all I've been telling these guys.
Yes. I agree. Therefore, I posted.

Xeon3D 07-17-2008 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80008)
Zophar has long hosted Music taken directly from old school video games, that's technically illegal and any company who owns the right to these could force you to remove them. You can't be against once type of piracy and the turn around and allow another, so how do you JUSTIFY this?

BTW, your answer can't be "Because it's not as bad as hosting ROMs" because my answer is going to be "But hosting ROMs is not as bad hosting bootleg movies and commercial games".

As for the nostalgia part, get over it, times change, you can't live in the past.

My answer to the music archives question is simply "F*ck them". I don't really give a crap about them. If those disappeared I wouldn't even notice. They are to me the same as commercial roms.

Oh, and since when is a person not be able to have a little bit of nostalgia? Not that I'm living in the past, but I'm sticking to my ideals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chapu (Post 80009)
You're right, Xeon. I may have not expressed myself quite properly when I wrote "stop piracy". English isn't my native language either, actually that'd be Spanish, just like you (y entiendo perfectamente bien a lo que te referís con lo de "cínicos" :-D ).
Of course we shouldn't, as far as ZD goes, care about what the crap other websites are doing. But I could never help but wonder... How is it possible that so many people cry of "Piracy!" and at the same time the minimum tools and knowledge to prevent it (or at least diminish it) are not as readily available to the public just like the piracy itself is? I'm even starting to suspect there's some kind of economical interest involved in people not being able to legally make backup copies of the soft their own... Currently, the only reliable way to have a dumper of your own is to have an Electronics Engineering PhD or something!
Whatever be the case, I'll be retuning for sure to ZD, as I find it to be the single best community for serious emulation.

That's a way I don't want to go thru... (if this sounds funny it's because it's a Portuguese saying quickly and literally translated to English)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladyn (Post 80019)
The English word is hypocrite.

Thanks a bunch!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladyn (Post 80019)
They're requested because people are cheap bastards. That will always be the case, but I don't see why legitimate uses should be curtailed because of people who are causing the real problem.

Have a look into the world. That happens everywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladyn (Post 80019)
Go after the ROM sites, not the modchips.

I totally agree. Then if we add commercial roms to ZD, can we go after ZD as well?

[RANT]
And I still can't believe a thread about this has so many posts.
Your law says that copyrighted material cannot be distributed if you don't have the rights to. We don't so we do not distribute! What part can't you not understand?[/RANT]

SparroHawc 07-17-2008 12:48 AM

Personally, I love the music section; I usually use the music archives to grab the music from a game I own or have played, and listen to the tunes - there's a lot of nostalgia that gets associated with that music.

But if there was an uproar over it, I'd rather see the music section go than ZD as a whole.

In the defense of the music archives, there really isn't any marketability for old 8-bit/16-bit tunes. Sure, it's copyrighted material, but so is a photograph of the Mona Lisa. That doesn't mean someone's going to come after you for making a photocopy of the photograph. It has no real value to the creator.

Similarly, the music in a game is such a small part of the game itself that it could almost fall under the quotation rule - just having the music isn't anywhere close to having the whole copyrighted work. I would be more wary of ripping music from a modern system, especially if the creators might make a CD out of the soundtrack.

Xeon3D 07-17-2008 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80023)
In the defense of the music archives, there really isn't any marketability for old 8-bit/16-bit tunes. Sure, it's copyrighted material, but so is a photograph of the Mona Lisa. That doesn't mean someone's going to come after you for making a photocopy of the photograph. It has no real value to the creator.

Nope, since the photography itself is not a 1:1 copy of the copyrighted material, in this case, the mona lisa painting. But the music archives are indeed 1:1 copies of the music in the games. This argument of mine can easily be exploited, I know (Example: Then having a 1:1 copy of just the eye in the mona lisa paiting would also be copyright infringement, but maybe it IS...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80023)
Similarly, the music in a game is such a small part of the game itself that it could almost fall under the quotation rule - just having the music isn't anywhere close to having the whole copyrighted work. I would be more wary of ripping music from a modern system, especially if the creators might make a CD out of the soundtrack.

Interesting Idea...

SparroHawc 07-17-2008 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 80024)
Nope, since the photography itself is not a 1:1 copy of the copyrighted material, in this case, the mona lisa painting. But the music archives are indeed 1:1 copies of the music in the games. This argument of mine can easily be exploited, I know (Example: Then having a 1:1 copy of just the eye in the mona lisa paiting would also be copyright infringement, but maybe it IS...)

Not according to the USA's copyright laws. The Mona Lisa itself is not copyrightable; it is old enough it belongs to the public domain. However, any photograph taken of it is copyrightable by the photographer.

Hence, if you make any duplicate of the photo, you are infringing on its copyright; accuracy has nothing to do with it. Even a photocopy from a really bad photocopy machine is illegal.

Xeon3D 07-17-2008 01:12 AM

Thank you. That's what you get by not living in the good ol' USA

SparroHawc 07-17-2008 01:34 AM

Good ol'? It's getting less and less good ol' as the days go by, it seems... Did you ever hear about what -else- is in the DMCA?

the_importer 07-17-2008 01:44 AM

Quote:

My answer to the music archives question is simply "F*ck them". I don't really give a crap about them. If those disappeared I wouldn't even notice. They are to me the same as commercial roms.

Oh, and since when is a person not be able to have a little bit of nostalgia? Not that I'm living in the past, but I'm sticking to my ideals.
And yet, you would want to get rid of the music archives? How can you be pro for nostalgia and not be pro for the music archives? That's also are part of the Zophar history. That's 2 contradictions so far, let's not go for 3 :p

Quote:

In the defense of the music archives, there really isn't any marketability for old 8-bit/16-bit tunes. Sure, it's copyrighted material, but so is a photograph of the Mona Lisa. That doesn't mean someone's going to come after you for making a photocopy of the photograph. It has no real value to the creator.
And Nintendo wouldn't go after Zophar for hosting old school ROMs for the same reason that they never went after the site for hosting Nintendo music. Like I said before:

-Copyright is copyright, but there are different levels

-Again, Planetemu.net has been hosting ROMs for the past 7 years and no big video game companies as EVER asked them to remove ROMs. I say big because some smaller ones such as the Bitmap Brothers did ask them to remove their old games once and Planetemu complied.

Xeon3D 07-17-2008 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80030)
And yet, you would want to get rid of the music archives? How can you be pro for nostalgia and not be pro for the music archives? That's also are part of the Zophar history. That's 2 contradictions so far, let's not go for 3 :p

I'm pro for nostalgia. My kind of nostalgia didn't involve piracy. I miss the times when I was a staffer. The ambient, the spirit that was here. Then, and now, I could care fucking less about the music archives.

You're not supposed to have music of a game you never bought. So?

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80030)
And Nintendo wouldn't go after Zophar for hosting old school ROMs for the same reason that they never went after the site for hosting Nintendo music. Like I said before:

-Copyright is copyright, but there are different levels

-Again, Planetemu.net has been hosting ROMs for the past 7 years and no big video game companies as EVER asked them to remove ROMs. I say big because some smaller ones such as the Bitmap Brothers did ask them to remove their old games once and Planetemu complied.

Then go post / work in Planetemu... sheesh.

Edman should make a poll on the front page to see if people wanted commercial roms added or not...

If I was in charge (which I'm not and really don't want to be) we wouldn't have music archives. we wouldn't have commercial roms. If you want the archive, get the rom and extract the sounds from it. We supply the tools already. You should get to do the illegal part not us. But since I'm not in charge we'll have to wait for Edman's decision on this. If this gets ahead and ZD ever gets a warning notice, I'll be the first one to say "I told you so".

Mind it we already supply commercial ROMS... WTF. Didn't even notice it.

There you go http://roms.zophar.net for all your ******* pleasure.

I'm done discussing this. I already made my point. You made yours. Do what you want to do. As if I fuckin care. ROM Kiddiez will always be ROM Kiddiez.

Rattlehead 07-17-2008 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 79990)
No. That may not be piracy. But that's what all flash cart owners do right? Just for their own games. Please do note that what I'm going to say afterwards may not apply to you. I'm not saying that you do pirate, but there's a word in my language ("cínico" which roughly translates to "one who says one thing and makes the point that that's only what he does while he does completely the opposite", I don't know the translation to english).
Most people, as soon as this topic goes into debate say that that's all they use their flashcards \ exploits \ modchips for. That and homebrew of course.
I don't really understand why there are so many ROM sites and why commercial ROMs are so requested.



Thank you. I reckon it's quite good, but there's another level that I plan to achieve.



So basically, what you're saying is that it's illegal to host commercial ROMs. That's all I've been telling these guys.



True. Will the thread opener please add a poll to the topic? I'd love to see the results.



Spirit maybe? :) I totally agree with the rest.



To my knowledge there aren't that many "homemade ROM copier" how-to, schematics or diagrams. Your best bet could be buying a used one from eBay / CG. Other option would be finding a respected scene member that owns a copier and send the carts to him. People used (and maybe still do) to use that scheme with arcade boards for the MAME project. And, yes, I don't think those would be illegal to have since you own a physical copy of the "work" so the copy you made can indeed be called a Backup which is allowed by your Law.

Also, I don't think we're here to help stop piracy. We're just not promoting (?) it. Note that this is a topic about ZD. I don't think we should give a crap about what other websites do, and I don't really know of an Emulation Website that does indeed distribute commercial ROMs (note that I'm speaking about Emulation websites and not those ROM sites that also distribute the emulators as well.).

To finish, I'd like to thank you all for your opinions on this, even if I think that this discussion shouldn't be here on the first place. It is Zophar's Domain afterall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladyn (Post 80019)
The English word is hypocrite.



They're requested because people are cheap bastards. That will always be the case, but I don't see why legitimate uses should be curtailed because of people who are causing the real problem. Go after the ROM sites, not the modchips.



Yes. I agree. Therefore, I posted.


1. Yes, I'll post a poll...as soon as I figure out how.

2. I am not a cheap bastard! I know my dad, unfortunately.

3. I don't give a damn about the issue anymore. Zophar doesn't host commercial ROMs...so what!?

4. I probably won't ever give a damn again. There's just too much shit that I have to deal with in my life right now.

5. I'm the one who should be thanking everyone for their opinions, damn it!

packardmelan 07-17-2008 02:33 AM

Okay... this thread's going along, but it seems to be getting a little heated. I'd like to give a little bit more of my opinion on things, if it's okay. :)

I am a member of "Generation Y". And I'm a pirate. This appears to be a culture that is quickly becoming mainstream, especially in America. You can get anything from the media in some bootleg way. Movies on DVD while they're in theater. Non-DRM MP3s from torrent files. Chiptunes. Video games ROMs. ISOs.

And it's a moral dilemma. I 'support' movies and video game companies and the like as I can afford to. I'll see a movie in theaters if possible, but even if I can't, I'll download a rip and watch the thing -- if I like it, I buy the DVD upon release. Often "the special edition", which costs more. But sometimes... I just keep the pirated copy until I lose interest. Then it doesn't matter.

I download MP3s... mostly Japanese stuff that isn't offered in American stores. But I've pirated whole CDs, too. Sometimes to replace CDs from my collection that were scratched or stolen in the past - sometimes because I just want to get a song or two.

I've also bought off Amazon and iTunes, though.

I've listened to Chip Tunes like NSFs, but honestly? I'd rather listen to tracks off OCRemix. I'm honestly not sure what the legality of those are - but they seem more interesting and less outright piracy.

I download ROMs. I bought an R4 so I could pirate NDS games. Yet I still go out and buy games. It's not always a "try before you buy" mentality - sometimes I just don't feel a game is worth the price being asked. So I'll buy used... but also pirate games.

I'm a result of modern culture. I feel "entitled" to these downloads, but I also have a moral obligation to support these companies and to buy their products. I have more Wii games than I ever bought GC games, for instance... but instead of buying Rock Band, I'm using Frets on Fire and downloaded a torrent of ripped Rock Band tracks.

It's shady. I'm actually doing better now, buying games and music and movies -- but I'm not completely "legit" either. There's an ambiguity there, and a confusion. Nothing's quite defined. I firmly believe in BUYING. CONSUMING. But I pirate like anyone else does.

That said, Zophar.net was about the community. It was about the culture. But it was also 'clean' in the sense that we were here to talk to one another -- yes, about emulation and games -- but also about our lives. It wasn't a center for trading roms or conducting questionable activities. (Other than, you know, Diaries posts about underaged drinking and crap.)

It was really a turn -- for the worst, in my opinion -- when "Zophar's ROMS Domain" opened up.

Umiliphus 07-17-2008 02:36 AM

I never knew there were serious roms here. How about that.

Regardless of whether both are illegal, it has been my observation that game roms are a bigger liability to a website than game music files, though there are better sites for both of those (this one still favors the GYM format over vgz, for meep's sake), so neither need be a priority (disregard the fact that after all these years I have most of the stuff I want). Also, it is worth mentioning that the mentioned "planetemu" site is in French. It doesn't seem like that would make a difference, but it often appears to me that English sites are easier or more obvious targets. Emu-russia also still works.

the_importer 07-17-2008 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 80032)
I'm pro for nostalgia. My kind of nostalgia didn't involve piracy. I miss the times when I was a staffer. The ambient, the spirit that was here. Then, and now, I could care fucking less about the music archives.

You're not supposed to have music of a game you never bought. So?

Just stating a contradiction, that's all.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 80032)
Then go post / work in Planetemu... sheesh.

Edman should make a poll on the front page to see if people wanted commercial roms added or not...

If I was in charge (which I'm not and really don't want to be) we wouldn't have music archives. we wouldn't have commercial roms. If you want the archive, get the rom and extract the sounds from it. We supply the tools already. You should get to do the illegal part not us. But since I'm not in charge we'll have to wait for Edman's decision on this. If this gets ahead and ZD ever gets a warning notice, I'll be the first one to say "I told you so".


Mind it we already supply commercial ROMS... WTF. Didn't even notice it.

There you go http://roms.zophar.net for all your ******* pleasure.

If any companies that matter (Nintendo, SEGA, SNK, Hudson, Capcom, Konami, etc..) ever ask for Zophar to remove ROMs, you have full bragging rights (providing that there is proof of a request for removal)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 80032)
I'm done discussing this. I already made my point. You made yours. Do what you want to do. As if I fuckin care. ROM Kiddiez will always be ROM Kiddiez.

ROM Kiddiez :D !!! I haven't heard that one in years. Unfortunately, I didn't work 10 years ago because I was already an adult when I got into emulation and it sure as hell doesn't work now :p

Also, Rule 45 dude !!!

the_importer 07-17-2008 03:17 AM

packardmelan, nice to see someone else with the balls to admit you you admited. I myself have tons of Anime and MP3s and I copy some DVD movies I rent (don't like to waste my time downloading them when it's faster to rent and support my local video store at the same time).

As for softwares, well I'm pro Freewares (yay SourceForge) and I got like 5 license of XP given to me by clients who didn't want them anymore because they went Vista (suckers :p).

For games, well I don't play PC games but I do still play consoles games and I have like 12 Wii games, 12 GameCube games and 11 NDS games, all legally purchased.

And of course, I have my ROMs and PSX ISOs :)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Umiliphus
I never knew there were serious roms here. How about that.

Regardless of whether both are illegal, it has been my observation that game roms are a bigger liability to a website than game music files, though there are better sites for both of those (this one still favors the GYM format over vgz, for meep's sake), so neither need be a priority (disregard the fact that after all these years I have most of the stuff I want). Also, it is worth mentioning that the mentioned "planetemu" site is in French. It doesn't seem like that would make a difference, but it often appears to me that English sites are easier or more obvious targets. Emu-russia also still works.

Actually, PlanetEmu is European French and if there's one place that's even more of a bitch than America when it comes to piracy, it's Western Europe. So if they can get away with it, anyone can.


Off-topic: I won't apologize for double posting since I can't edit my own posts >_>

Soushkin 07-17-2008 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80047)
Actually, PlanetEmu is European French and if there's one place that's even more of a bitch than America when it comes to piracy, it's Western Europe. So if they can get away with it, anyone can.
>_>

I wonder where you got that from. I'm from Holland and we can download movies and music as much as we desire. And it's actually legal too because we pay a fee on blank media.

One movie can get you 250k fine in the USA, same for music. Or three years in jail. No way we have such stupid sentences here to serve them dumbass companies.

France and England can be pretty harsh on downloading music and movies. They don't care much about them old games though, their police got better things to do than busting some ROMsites.


Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80047)


Off-topic: I won't apologize for double posting since I can't edit my own posts >_>


I can edit my posts to my hearts content so I'm wondering why you can't.

packardmelan 07-17-2008 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soushkin (Post 80052)
I can edit my posts to my hearts content so I'm wondering why you can't.

A little thing called "user permissions". You're a "content manager" -- so you have edit rights. We peons (new and old) don't. It'll take an admin to fix that.

Cornellius 07-17-2008 03:07 PM

The thing is that, roms are legal for those who owns the real cartridge. My copy of Zelda - A link to the past broke (can't save my game anymore, battery is messed up), so emulating it is the only way I'm able to play it. The problem is that nobody respect that rule.

It's like mp3s, I download a lot, but when I see that I'm listening to the same album for about 2 week, I say to myself: Hey, I like that album/band a lot !, and I buy the CD/songs.

Soushkin 07-17-2008 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornellius (Post 80067)
The thing is that, roms are legal for those who owns the real cartridge. My copy of Zelda - A link to the past broke (can't save my game anymore, battery is messed up), so emulating it is the only way I'm able to play it. The problem is that nobody respect that rule.

Simply because there's no way they can actually verify if you own the actual cartridge or not. Unless they (police, or who ever) pay you a visit, but that just costs too much for them old games. It's more lucrative to go after the ones sharing Wii/DS/PS3/PSP/XBox360 games.

Over at CoolROM we received some complaint from www.theesa.com once that we had ESA protected ROMs up for download. They never mentioned any of the other ROMs, just the protected IPs. We took those down and that was it, the ESA never bothered us again.

So yes, if you stick to the "rules" you can host ROMs just fine. Once you got protected IPs (Super Mario Bros. for instance) up for download you can expect the ESA knocking on your door sooner or later.

SparroHawc 07-17-2008 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornellius (Post 80067)
The thing is that, roms are legal for those who owns the real cartridge. My copy of Zelda - A link to the past broke (can't save my game anymore, battery is messed up), so emulating it is the only way I'm able to play it. The problem is that nobody respect that rule.

ROMs are legal for -you- to make if you have the means of dumping a backup. It is, according to the companies that have enough money to succeed at suing your butt, illegal to provide ROMs for all-and-sundry to download, especially if said company is currently distributing any form of the original game (such as through the Virtual Console). Also, if there is -any- encryption on the game cartridge/CD/what have you, the DMCA makes it ILLEGAL to bypass that encryption even if it's a Caesar cipher. By any method. It's illegal to record a DVD with a camcorder pointed at your TV screen because the DVD is encrypted.

I play ROMs, but I have no illusions about the legality of such. Hell, I started playing Zelda: LttP on the Wii via emulator recently, for exactly the same reason you gave, but I know it's not legal since I can purchase it for Virtual Console. The fact that I own the cartridge means exactly zilch; my cartridge is WELL past warranty. It broke, boohoo. I'm supposed to buy a replacement for it. I'm cheap and I don't want to, but I also know I'm using a less-than-legal method to get around it. I did not make that backup I am playing. Just because no one else knows that doesn't make it legal, it just makes it impossible to prove in a court of law.

And then there's the Mickey Mouse Rule. You cannot use a character that is currently under copyright. Sonic, Mario, Link, Samus, Kirby, all those characters cannot be duplicated in any fashion because they are owned wholly by their corporations. Just like how you can't legally draw a picture of Mickey Mouse and use it for your own gain unless it's for educational purposes or satire, you can't distribute a ROM of a game that contains a copyrighted character. This doesn't mean you'll actually get in trouble for it; litigation is expensive and has no guaranteed return. But it's still illegal.

I personally condone the playing of ROMs on emulators. It's the best way to experience old games outside of hunting down the original cartridge and a system that still works. I cannot suggest it as a -legal- pastime though.

Cornellius 07-17-2008 05:51 PM

Then again, I know some people who download roms because they can't find the game anywhere. If I was a game producer, instead of trying to find people downloading a game, let's say, Zelda - ALTTP, I'd re-release this game as a special edition or something like that. I applause Nintendo for the Virtual Console, really great idea. Plus, less electronic components (no physical cartridge), so less chance of game failures.

SparroHawc 07-17-2008 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornellius (Post 80073)
I applause Nintendo for the Virtual Console, really great idea. Plus, less electronic components (no physical cartridge), so less chance of game failures.

Sweet mercy, yes. I've probably already blown $100 on VC games.

Xeon3D 07-17-2008 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80046)
Just stating a contradiction, that's all.

Dude, I know the music archives existed in that time. I didn't have anything to do with them, Death Adder did. My nostalgia, what I remember doing on the website, speaking on the forums, all of that never involved piracy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80046)
If any companies that matter (Nintendo, SEGA, SNK, Hudson, Capcom, Konami, etc..) ever ask for Zophar to remove ROMs, you have full bragging rights (providing that there is proof of a request for removal)

I hope I never have to. Even if I'm totally against the idea of Zophar having ROMS. (Note that they're not even hosted here...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80046)
Unfortunately, I didn't work 10 years ago because I was already an adult when I got into emulation and it sure as hell doesn't work now :p[

Didn't quite grab what you meant to say with this phrase. You trying to say that you're not a ROM Kiddie but instead a "ROM Adultie" ???

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80046)
Also, Rule 45 dude !!!

Yeah, whatever rule 45 is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80030)
-Again, Planetemu.net has been hosting ROMs for the past 7 years and no big video game companies as EVER asked them to remove ROMs.

There are also a lot of Serial Killers over there that did kill some people 20 years ago and they're never been caught. Let's all turn into serial killers then!

SparroHawc 07-17-2008 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 80089)
Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80030)
ROM Kiddiez !!! I haven't heard that one in years. Unfortunately, I didn't work 10 years ago because I was already an adult when I got into emulation and it sure as hell doesn't work now

Didn't quite grab what you meant to say with this phrase. You trying to say that you're not a ROM Kiddie but instead a "ROM Adultie" ???

Doesn't matter how old you are, if you ransack forums making posts asking "HOW DO I GET THIS ROM LOL" you are a ROM Kiddie. ...which, I think, was Xeon's point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 80089)
Yeah, whatever rule 45 is.

Actually, I want to know what rule 45 is too...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeon3D (Post 80089)
Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80030)
-Again, Planetemu.net has been hosting ROMs for the past 7 years and no big video game companies as EVER asked them to remove ROMs.

There are also a lot of Serial Killers over there that did kill some people 20 years ago and they're never been caught. Let's all turn into serial killers then!

Whoa, whoa there Xeon! Take a deep breath... You're going into flame mode. ;) If you're going to get snarky at him, you ought to at least be subtle about it. For the most part, this has been a fairly calm and level-headed discussion (surprisingly). Let's keep it that way, mm?

Incidentally, Soushkin gave a good rebuttal to this comment already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soushkin (Post 80052)
I wonder where you got that from. I'm from Holland and we can download movies and music as much as we desire. And it's actually legal too because we pay a fee on blank media.

One movie can get you 250k fine in the USA, same for music. Or three years in jail. No way we have such stupid sentences here to serve them dumbass companies.

France and England can be pretty harsh on downloading music and movies. They don't care much about them old games though, their police got better things to do than busting some ROMsites.

Again, it comes down to this... It's illegal to host commercial ROMs. There is a good chance that it is also illegal to host music rips from games, but there's no reason to suspect that anyone will come after ZD for hosting the music when it's such a fringe item. (Technically, hosting fanart on a page with ads is also illegal, but I don't see DeviantART complaining about cease-and-desist e-mails.) I, personally, have seen SEVERAL ROM sites go down due to legal activity, making hosting ROMs a high-risk activity. And I'm sorry, but pointing out one or two ROM sites that have survived so far isn't sufficient proof that it's sanctioned. The subdomain ROM hosting on ZD is plausible deniability; it will either go away or it will stay, and either way it shouldn't affect the main ZD site. Especially considering how the poll seems to be turning out. :)

Xeon3D 07-18-2008 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80101)
Doesn't matter how old you are, if you ransack forums making posts asking "HOW DO I GET THIS ROM LOL" you are a ROM Kiddie. ...which, I think, was Xeon's point.

Nope, I wasn't saying that he's a ROM Kiddie. Not in that way. It was more in the way of "ZD HAS TO HAVE ROMS!" since he's so supportive of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80101)
Actually, I want to know what rule 45 is too...

And the mistery continues...

Google results say that Rule 45 of your civil code is related to subpoenas and that rule 45 of the USA criminal code speaks about extending time?
And I thought google helped everytime...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80101)
Whoa, whoa there Xeon! Take a deep breath... You're going into flame mode. ;) If you're going to get snarky at him, you ought to at least be subtle about it. For the most part, this has been a fairly calm and level-headed discussion (surprisingly). Let's keep it that way, mm?

Incidentally, Soushkin gave a good rebuttal to this comment already.

Hey, I'm cool. Actually I'm just replying for the fun of it, as I've got nothing funnier to do ATM. I was just trying to end that point. Since he said that "if they're doing it and are not getting caught why should we do it as well", I was just trying to prove that that way of thinking was wrong. Maybe the serial killer was a bit exaggerated but it was the first thing that came to mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80101)
Again, it comes down to this... It's illegal to host commercial ROMs.

Behold, for he speaks the truth!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80101)
There is a good chance that it is also illegal to host music rips from games, but there's no reason to suspect that anyone will come after ZD for hosting the music when it's such a fringe item. (Technically, hosting fanart on a page with ads is also illegal, but I don't see DeviantART complaining about cease-and-desist e-mails.)

It's illegal. The fact that we are or we aren't getting complaints about it doesn't change the legal or not level. There are legal things or illegal things, I have yet to see a (input percentage level here)% illegal thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80101)
I, personally, have seen SEVERAL ROM sites go down due to legal activity, making hosting ROMs a high-risk activity.

Oh, so did I... good old times those were. (and no, I'm not nostalgic this time, lol)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80101)
The subdomain ROM hosting on ZD is plausible deniability; it will either go away or it will stay, and either way it shouldn't affect the main ZD site. Especially considering how the poll seems to be turning out. :)

I don't really think we're hosting the ROMS. I think he's getting them from some other place. At least the roms aren't hosted on roms.zophar.net, they're on a xxx.yy.zzz.aaa (IP only) server, and I can't really bother to go check where it'll lead.

the_importer 07-18-2008 10:52 AM

Couple of things:

1- PlanetEmu and other sites aren't still Online because they haven't been caught, they're still Online because game companies don't give two fucks as long as they keep it old school (I'm sure that any of those sites start hosting NDS ROMs, they'll be shut down).

2- Rule 45
Anyone on the Internet going on record stating that they are against a form of piracy are pirates themselves.

If you're on the Internet and know about piracy, odds are that you do it in some way, shape or form such has illegal: Music, Movies, TV Shows, Anime, Softwares, PC Games, Console Games, ROMs, Operating Systems, etc...

These people could be defined as hypocrites for judging people on doing something that they do themselves. The only explanation of this behavior would be fear of getting caught or fear of judgment.


-Nintendo_Fanguy0007: Downloading Wii games is a crime, you shouldn't be doing this!!! They'll catch you and throw your ass in jail......

-Common_Sense_Guy8080: Rule 45 man!!! You're probably typing this on your PC with a cracked copy of Windows XP, listening to music downloaded via Lime Wire and watching bootlegged movies on your TV that you got via Bitorrent.

SparroHawc 07-18-2008 05:09 PM

Ahh, clarification! Thanks for defining the rule. (But why 45?)

It's getting a little off the topic, though - the question isn't whether or not Xeon3D has illegal roms, but whether or not Zophar's Domain should host illegal material.

I'm viewing it in my previous comment as a question of risk. ROMs themselves are high-risk; music rips are low-risk. They aren't no-risk, I will admit, and if they disappear I wouldn't cry about it. I'd miss them, but I wouldn't be heartbroken. The only legality issue in regards to the music isn't 'can we legally host these files?' because as Xeon pointed out, the definitive answer is no, it isn't legal. Instead, the question is 'will anyone get upset at us for hosting these files?' So far the answer seems to be no, but there is always the possibility this will change, and it isn't the sort of thing the ZD administrators should fight for as it isn't the main focus of the site.

Rattlehead 07-18-2008 06:11 PM

Same ol' song and dance, every post.

cipher 07-19-2008 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlehead (Post 79749)

17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(1)
"...computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

The only exemption this clause provides for is when circumventing copy protection systems to access materials for archival purposes. This has absolutely nothing to do with distributing copyrighted materials, which is illegal no matter how you slice it.

Cartridge-era games didn't even implement any 'copy protection systems' to be circumvented, so the whole point might be moot, but corporations can spin anything into gold if they try hard enough, so who knows.

AFAIK, it has never been illegal to create a backup of ROM data from a game cartridge.

Xeon3D 07-20-2008 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80158)
Couple of things:

1- PlanetEmu and other sites aren't still Online because they haven't been caught, they're still Online because game companies don't give two fucks as long as they keep it old school (I'm sure that any of those sites start hosting NDS ROMs, they'll be shut down).

We're not PlanetEmu. We're speaking about ZD here in case you didn't notice. Stop giving examples of other sites, or are you going to turn into a Serial killer as I've wrote in a previous post? You registered and 90% of your posts have been in this thread. Why the hell do want ZD to host roms so much? Go download them at PlanetEmu ffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80158)
2- Rule 45
Anyone on the Internet going on record stating that they are against a form of piracy are pirates themselves.

[...]

These people could be defined as hypocrites for judging people on doing something that they do themselves. The only explanation of this behavior would be fear of getting caught or fear of judgment.
[...]

Dude, tell me, where I have said that I didn't pirate, nor that I didn't have illegal ROMs... I was saying that I was against ZD distributing ROMs!

Example: I'm also against running a stripping club here where I live. But I wouldn't mind going to one.

Also, thanks for the clarification. I didn't think of searching Urbandictionary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80171)
Ahh, clarification! Thanks for defining the rule. (But why 45?)

It's getting a little off the topic, though - the question isn't whether or not Xeon3D has illegal roms, but whether or not Zophar's Domain should host illegal material.

Yes, it seems it's turning to a personal attack.
Quote:

Originally Posted by SparroHawc (Post 80171)
I'm viewing it in my previous comment as a question of risk. ROMs themselves are high-risk; music rips are low-risk. They aren't no-risk, I will admit, and if they disappear I wouldn't cry about it. I'd miss them, but I wouldn't be heartbroken. The only legality issue in regards to the music isn't 'can we legally host these files?' because as Xeon pointed out, the definitive answer is no, it isn't legal. Instead, the question is 'will anyone get upset at us for hosting these files?' So far the answer seems to be no, but there is always the possibility this will change, and it isn't the sort of thing the ZD administrators should fight for as it isn't the main focus of the site.

Note: The main focus of the site was to be an Emulation Archive. And I really can't fit commercial roms distribution into the definition of Emulation Archive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlehead (Post 80175)
Same ol' song and dance, every post.

True.. True...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cipher (Post 80240)
The only exemption this clause provides for is when circumventing copy protection systems to access materials for archival purposes. This has absolutely nothing to do with distributing copyrighted materials, which is illegal no matter how you slice it.

Cartridge-era games didn't even implement any 'copy protection systems' to be circumvented, so the whole point might be moot, but corporations can spin anything into gold if they try hard enough, so who knows.

AFAIK, it has never been illegal to create a backup of ROM data from a game cartridge.

Nope, as long as you did it yourself with your own tools for a game you own. It's called a backup copy, like you can make of a music CD.

Also, I'm gonna stop posting in this thread. It's not the first one that I've seen about this, nor it'll be the last. There will always be two opinions and none of the sides are willing to give up. I've made my point here and a few agreed with (at least most of) it, so I'm happy. ZD is still "hosting" commercial roms. That decision wasn't mine nor did I condone it. I wouldn't give a flying .... if X, Y or Z started distributing roms. I download some myself. I can't (or couldn't) see ZD distributing them. My problem is just that.

Watching a site that was once one of if not the most popular website about emulation in the true meaning of the word, which had a no-piracy rule and for which I was proud of being a part of, now getting mixed with the ROM sharing sites.

The following statement is a joke. ->
Also, I'll leave leaving a question in the air. I got a copy of No$GBA 2.6a (note, I don't use Windows/Wine in either way so I can't really use it), should I upload it? Maybe even make a newspost about it?<- Do not take the last statement seriously.

The 9th Sage 07-20-2008 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80158)
-Common_Sense_Guy8080: Rule 45 man!!! You're probably typing this on your PC with a cracked copy of Windows XP, listening to music downloaded via Lime Wire and watching bootlegged movies on your TV that you got via Bitorrent.[/i]

....but you are missing the fact that this is not relevant. It is still illegal. If you pirate, or not, you're fooling yourself if you think it's legal.

The 9th Sage 07-20-2008 03:21 AM

Jeez, nevermind. I can't read this thread anymore. :P It's getting painful and angsty.

the_importer 07-20-2008 11:51 PM

Quote:

We're not PlanetEmu. We're speaking about ZD here in case you didn't notice. Stop giving examples of other sites, or are you going to turn into a Serial killer as I've wrote in a previous post? You registered and 90% of your posts have been in this thread. Why the hell do want ZD to host roms so much? Go download them at PlanetEmu ffs.
Again, you're missing the point. I couldn't care less if Zophar hosts ROMs or not, what I care is that you're still making it as bad as people did back in 1998. Things have change since then and even if Zophar doesn't host ROMs, it doesn't mean that it should compare the ROM scene to the same level as people who download NDS, PSP, Wii, PS3 and XBOX360 games. In case you weren't aware of it, the emulation scene kind of made a rule of thumb about 5 or 6 years ago that it wouldn't distribute games from systems that were still on the market and that it wouldn't host any games that were less than 4 years old. Many ROM sites follow this rule and I think it's quite honorable of them to do so.

Quote:

Dude, tell me, where I have said that I didn't pirate, nor that I didn't have illegal ROMs... I was saying that I was against ZD distributing ROMs!
Hmm, let's see, does this sound familiar:
Quote:

I'm done discussing this. I already made my point. You made yours. Do what you want to do. As if I fuckin care. ROM Kiddiez will always be ROM Kiddiez.
So either you called yourself a ROM Kiddy or Rule 45 made you spilled your guts :p

Quote:

The following statement is a joke. ->
Also, I'll leave leaving a question in the air. I got a copy of No$GBA 2.6a (note, I don't use Windows/Wine in either way so I can't really use it), should I upload it? Maybe even make a newspost about it?<- Do not take the last statement seriously.
Knock yourself out, it's kind of crappy anyway, don't think many people would want to use it.

Quote:

....but you are missing the fact that this is not relevant. It is still illegal. If you pirate, or not, you're fooling yourself if you think it's legal.
And I think you're missing some reading comprehension skills. Where did I ever mention that ROMs were legal? Only thing I stated is that there are different levels of piracy and that old school emulation falls into the bottom. If it wasn't, all of these ROM sites that have been around for years would be gone by now just like the ones that distribute current generation games.

Umiliphus 07-21-2008 12:09 AM

Maybe they are run by sorcerers!

mushroom blue 07-21-2008 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packardmelan (Post 80039)
I am a member of "Generation Y". And I'm a pirate. This appears to be a culture that is quickly becoming mainstream, especially in America. You can get anything from the media in some bootleg way. Movies on DVD while they're in theater. Non-DRM MP3s from torrent files. Chiptunes. Video games ROMs. ISOs.

Lawrence Lessig had a wonderful TED Talk on exactly this subject. the synopsis is that my generation and your generation (and all successive generations) have been taught that they are going to break the law on a day-to-day basis. we do it with movies, music, television, video games, drugs, jaywalking, peeing in public, etc. it's one of the first signs of corporate facism. at least Portugal and Quebec have a reasonably fair version of benevolent facism implemented, where the only time it gets in your way is when you break one of the few laws. the facism in America seems to be run by those with the most money, at the cost of everyone else. laws are made to ensure revenue for a few, rather than ensure liberty for the many.

just remember: in a fully free-market, there are no copyright restrictions.

the_importer 07-22-2008 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushroom blue (Post 80481)
Lawrence Lessig had a wonderful TED Talk on exactly this subject. the synopsis is that my generation and your generation (and all successive generations) have been taught that they are going to break the law on a day-to-day basis. we do it with movies, music, television, video games, drugs, jaywalking, peeing in public, etc. it's one of the first signs of corporate facism. at least Portugal and Quebec have a reasonably fair version of benevolent facism implemented, where the only time it gets in your way is when you break one of the few laws. the facism in America seems to be run by those with the most money, at the cost of everyone else. laws are made to ensure revenue for a few, rather than ensure liberty for the many.

just remember: in a fully free-market, there are no copyright restrictions.

The music industry claimed that it would die if the market allowed cassette recorders on the market. Did it happen? No

The TV stations once claimed that the BETA Max and VHS would kill TV if they were allowed to be on the market. Did it happen? No

Same shit was claimed about CD burner, DVD burners, MP3 players, etc...

Fact is, even old shit like News Papers, comic books and the Radio are still alive today, a form of media is just too hard to kill.

Umiliphus 07-22-2008 08:02 AM

You should lobby congress!

packardmelan 07-23-2008 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_importer (Post 80507)
The music industry claimed that it would die if the market allowed cassette recorders on the market. Did it happen? No
...
Fact is, even old shit like News Papers, comic books and the Radio are still alive today, a form of media is just too hard to kill.

Here's a little problem, kiddo.

You're comparing "mass media" to something that could never hope to compare. If I pick up an old cassette, do I need to find, say, a 1983 Sony Walkman to play it? -- Or a VHS tape. Do I need to hunt down a top-loading Emerson deck to watch it?

Fact is, if I want to play a NES game I have few options. I hunt down a working NES. I buy a clone unit/NES-on-a-chip. I buy an officially-supported emulation/port on a newer system. I get a 'virtual console' title.

Or I pirate it.

The reason why so many forms of media have endured in the public is because it's so very easy to find a compatible - and legal - method of continuing to use them. On the other hand, it's not like I can buy a Playstation 3 and play Sony Imagework's "Hook" for the SNES on it... despite 'SONY' being stamped on both.

The closest legal recourse I'd have is if it were released on the virtual console/xbox live arcade/playstation network. See, the companies are starting to learn - "Retro" is very much in because, as pretty as new games are... often the gameplay lacks something. Simplicity, ease-of-use, tight controls. Mega Man 9 is a shining example of this - after years of complaints about the more recent 3D Mega Man-based games, Capcom finally relented and let Inafune go and just make a good goddamn game again. Digital distribution is the ONLY thing that made this possible.

On a similar path, companies are porting and re-releasing games more and more often. In some cases we get games like Rondo of Blood's 3D remake on the PSP. In others we get Rondo of Blood's re-release on the Japanese Virtual Console. By making these games available on modern systems at low prices, we will -hopefully- see mass video game piracy start to wane.

It'll never go away. But hopefully it'll wane.

Rattlehead 07-23-2008 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 9th Sage (Post 80272)
Jeez, nevermind. I can't read this thread anymore. :P It's getting painful and angsty.

That it is. It's starting to feel like some sorta geeky emo-drama in here. Now, if I could only find some Atreyu CDs and a couple of razor blades, we'd be set.

Xeon3D 07-23-2008 09:40 AM

Amazing how you're still posting here. When and if you want this thread closed, just yell. :)

Rattlehead 07-23-2008 11:02 AM

Please, for the love of everything holy and pure. Close it.

ThatSandersKid 07-23-2008 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leilei (Post 79929)
Not exactly, since they would still be copyrighted. No Nintendo blessing sure, but still copyrighted. It would be embarrassing if Wisdom Tree Games C&D'd their crap games from Zophar.

And I can't edit my own posts in this forum?

Wisdom Tree knows that I'm around (I think), and they haven't said a word about it. Atari will be on our asses about it, because it's the one thing that they can still do, is attempt to protect their IP, because they only rehash the same crap now.

That being said, Zophar has generally been neutral territory with ROMs, and I'm personally opposed to this idea.

Edit: This is what I get for not reading the entire thread.

Xeon3D 07-24-2008 01:52 AM

As the thread started requested, I'll leave this thread open till tomorrow at midnight (GMT+0 with DST). Be sure to write anything you want before that time.

As a final word (I know, I said it before, beat me!), the decision of hosting or not hosting roms here is always Edman's responsability. He paid for the site, he worked like an ass for this site for two months. Live it it as I've learned to.

the_importer 07-26-2008 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packardmelan (Post 80551)
Here's a little problem, kiddo.

You're comparing "mass media" to something that could never hope to compare. If I pick up an old cassette, do I need to find, say, a 1983 Sony Walkman to play it? -- Or a VHS tape. Do I need to hunt down a top-loading Emerson deck to watch it?

Fact is, if I want to play a NES game I have few options. I hunt down a working NES. I buy a clone unit/NES-on-a-chip. I buy an officially-supported emulation/port on a newer system. I get a 'virtual console' title.

Or I pirate it.

The reason why so many forms of media have endured in the public is because it's so very easy to find a compatible - and legal - method of continuing to use them. On the other hand, it's not like I can buy a Playstation 3 and play Sony Imagework's "Hook" for the SNES on it... despite 'SONY' being stamped on both.

The closest legal recourse I'd have is if it were released on the virtual console/xbox live arcade/playstation network. See, the companies are starting to learn - "Retro" is very much in because, as pretty as new games are... often the gameplay lacks something. Simplicity, ease-of-use, tight controls. Mega Man 9 is a shining example of this - after years of complaints about the more recent 3D Mega Man-based games, Capcom finally relented and let Inafune go and just make a good goddamn game again. Digital distribution is the ONLY thing that made this possible.

On a similar path, companies are porting and re-releasing games more and more often. In some cases we get games like Rondo of Blood's 3D remake on the PSP. In others we get Rondo of Blood's re-release on the Japanese Virtual Console. By making these games available on modern systems at low prices, we will -hopefully- see mass video game piracy start to wane.

It'll never go away. But hopefully it'll wane.

I think you missed the point of my post gramps (if I'm a kid to you, then you must be reaaaaly old :p).

My point was that there's always been a way to make copies of a media and that even if each industry claimed that it would be the end if some people were involved in piracy, the end never came.

Cassette recorders were replaced by CD-Burners
VHS & BETA were replaced by PVRs and DVD Recorders
And scanners are now used instead of photocopiers to copy printed media

The media industry still holds on to their claims that these devices will kill them even if they have been proven wrong in the last 20+ years. There will always be a balance between people who purchase and people who pirate, not going to go away and it's never gonna kill any form of media (no matter how crappy a media can become).

Video games aren't going to go away because some people mod-chips in their consoles and it's certainly NOT going to die because people like myself have some old school ROMs, especially considering how high game sales are these days. As I stated before, I may have ROMs on one of my HDD, but I still buy games. I don't have a mod-chip in my Wii nor do I have a flash card for my NDS, I buy my games at a store like most people.

Xeon3D 07-28-2008 12:11 AM

Closing thread... (I was late, sorry. :P)


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