The Decline of ROM hacking.

Bit-Blade

New member
This isn't isn't some kind of alarm call to action. These are just my views on the rom hacking community as a whole and what I personally think of it's decline. Take them or leave them as you will. This thread is more intended to lead to a discussion of the issue rather than an argument.

First, you have to think about the romhacking generation. Most of us grew up playing Super NES, NES, and Sega Genesis games. For most of us this is one very big reason why we hack- to extend our love of this style of gaming and give it new life. At an even baser level romhacking is just another expression for wanting to create your own game. More to the point, our generation has the background to apreciate what rom hacking more generally is with gusto. The romhacking generation is growing older, however. Many of us are dropping the hobby of rom hacking all together to take care of matters in our own lives, like going to college and building for a career, meeting the love of your life and starting a family, or having a good enough job that you hardly have a minute to spare for hobbies- even a combination of all of these.

See, what I'm getting at is that more and more today, kids aren't going to be able to readilly apreciate NES and SNES games unless their parents inspire them to. They're the ones growing up with childhood memories of the Nintendo 64, the Playstation, the Saturn and beyond that in some cases. They don't have the background to apreciate rom hacking like most of us do (and by this I mean that because we predominantly hack NES and SNES games, the old 2D styles. We know all about that). I think that this younger generation is more than likely much less accepting of this aged styled of gaming.

There are many other contributing factors to the present state of romhacking, and quite honestly I don't know if there's a damn thing we can do to stop it. One such factor could be interest. I beleive that the general interest in romhacking has been dropping by degrees over the years. Perhaps only recently has it become so severe that we are now taking notice of it. The old rom hacking groups that used to be around have all but imploded. Even some of the most titanic web sites in emulation and rom hacking have taken a turn for the worse. We've lost quite a lot that made rom hacking what it used to be.

Now, I'm not saying that romhacking is all together dead. This is more like a slump- a complicated slump that has many, many contributing factors, probably more than a few I haven't even considered yet. I think perhaps this is just the way it goes. We aren't necesarilly helpless to stop it but I don't know is enough of us care enough. Personally I think it's going to take me quite a while to stop entirely, and I may never stop. I really love this hobby, and I know there are many of you that feel the same. Still... that's the situation as I see it. Others may have things that are perhaps a bit more insightful to add.
 
That's well put. I do think the eagerness of parents to buy the kids the newer systems has made a big difference, but ROM hacking will more than likely survive. I don't believe it will become extinct - just a smaller and smaller community.
And for my two cents, you can actually have fun and get a sense of accomplishment over having hacked and changed an NES game that you can't get from playing a PS2 game that's almost exactily like twenty others they have on the market.
 
> And for my two cents, you can actually have fun and get a
> sense of accomplishment over having hacked and changed an
> NES game that you can't get from playing a PS2 game that's
> almost exactily like twenty others they have on the market.
>

I say it's the gameplay which is changing. Look at the nes, it was the best console and went for 8 years (I think). Now, the consoles are based on graphics, which replaces gameplay because the programmers work more on the graphics then the gameplay. I say, who needs the best graphics? It's just that most games today on new consoles are not great. There are some good ones but it’s hard to come across. Old skool consoles (like the Nes or Atari) had lots and lots of great games and thats why so many people collect them. The problem with games today is that they don't require much skill to master or to finish. The games today need to have more skill to the gameplay. Look at counter strike, it’s one of the most real FPS and has a skilful gameplay. It’s one of those games that takes years to master. But if you like easy games, then keep buying new games.
 
Let's not forget that many games have already been translated. A lot of people (myself included) doesn't know ASML, and when you (and by that I mean me) find a japanese game with no ASML, a reasonable amount of kanji and great gameplay/graphics (for a Nes/Snes game) then it has in 9/10 cases already been translated by someone else. Not to mention that all the "great" untranslated titles have been "taken" as well (FF3 (Nes), FF5, SD3 etc. The list goes on).

I'm not complaining though, I hadn't even started when those titles were being worked on. <img src=smilies/cwm11.gif>

And like you said, a lot of ppl prefer N64/PS1/Saturn+. But it's not just the graphics. I could go on all day about how much I love old 2D games, (and I do, really) but the truth is: I can't for the life of me hack anything more advanced then Nes/Snes/GB/Megadrive etc. Simply because I do in no way know anything about programming. My "skills" consists only of fiddling with a hexeditor, while browsing through graphics in 1,2 and 4BPP. Sad but true.

Not that I'm a specialist at Nes or Snes. If it were'nt for the fact that other ppl already made all the Hexeditors I use (thank god for tablefiles) and Tileeditors, I would be just as stuck with FF3 (Snes) as I would be with FFX (assuming I actually tried to translate it). I suppose that if some kind soul were to grace us with all the PSX/N64/Saturn tools we would ever need, then the scene could get a bit more active. But that won't happen anytime soon, and I hate when noobs ask others to (basically) do everything for them (hence why I'm not expecting anyone else to do it for ME).

So, while more and more advanced programmers are qutting the scene, I'm doomed to watch how the Pokemon Hacking community is the first relevant hit when you search google for "romhacking".

<img src=smilies/cry.gif>
 
I don't actually think the decline of rom hacking has anything to do with the newer generation of games, but rather a lack of discipline or respect from people trying to get into "the scene". Most of the great hacks that are out there were made by people who were around while emulation of 8bit and 16bit consoles was still being readily developed. They were aware of all the hard work being put into the emulators and debuggers and technical documents that aided them in their hacks.

Most newcomers to rom hacking aren't aware of how much work was done beforehand and take the tools that are available for granted. I mean, God forbid you take an hour to play with a tile viewer or read a document on how tiles are typically stored in a rom. Old hackers had to edit graphics in a hex editor or create their own tools. Instead of being grateful for these tools, most newcomers do nothing but complain about not getting instant results.

The other part of it is that is can be hard to remain focused. Rom hacking is essentially useless. I mean, you can't put this stuff on your resume. Finding motivation can be very hard, so I think most new projects devolve into http://ximwix.net/xbmonths-long delays</a> and eventual abandonment.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Now, the consoles are based on graphics, which replaces gameplay> because the programmers work more on the graphics then the
gameplay. I say, who needs the best graphics? It's just that
most games today on new consoles are not great. There are
some good ones but it’s hard to come across. Old skool
consoles (like the Nes or Atari) had lots and lots of great
games and thats why so many people collect them. The problem
with games today is that they don't require much skill to
master or to finish. The games today need to have more skill
to the gameplay.

<hr></blockquote>

I agree 100%. Well put.
 
> I say it's the gameplay which is changing. Look at the nes,
> it was the best console and went for 8 years (I think). Now,
> the consoles are based on graphics, which replaces gameplay
> because the programmers work more on the graphics then the gameplay.

I've heard this a million times. And you know what? It's bullshit.

Games now are as good as they ever were. Hell... they're better. It's not just the graphics... it's the length, the complexity... the things you can do, everything. Sure there's a lot of bad formulaic games out now... but there were just as many bad games for the NES and older consoles.

If you're going to stand there and tell me that Metroid Prime is inferior to the original Metroid except for graphics.... or that Dawn of Sorrow is less creative and less fun than the original Castlevania... you're full of shit.

The reason you (or I, for that matter) don't like the games that are coming out now is simple:

<h2>We're getting old!</h2>

Just like our grandparents that for the life of them couldn't understand why the Beatles were great... we're looking at these newer games and saying "what happened to gaming?". Well... nothing happened to gaming. Something happened to us.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Most newcomers to rom hacking aren't aware of how much work was done beforehand and take the tools that are available for granted. I mean, God forbid you take an hour to play with a tile viewer or read a document on how tiles are typically stored in a rom. Old hackers had to edit graphics in a hex editor or create their own tools. Instead of being grateful for these tools, most newcomers do nothing but complain about not getting instant results.

<hr></blockquote>

You can really see this now-a-days, when I first started all I had were outdated translation guides, but I knew well enough that if there were new programs available to use them instead (I remember when I first used DirectEd instead of Naga, it was like night and day in terms of how much I got done, same thing when I found TLP, and now YY-CHR). From there on it grew, I learned a lot more on my own than I ever did from any guide.

I think that's the problem, most of the newbies I see just ask questions rather than trying on their own. I remember I didn't even post on a ROM hacking forum until I had about a year's worth of experience, and then it was asking a simple question about NES palette editing, I didn't ask for offsets or anything, even though I knew they were available.


<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The other part of it is that is can be hard to remain focused. Rom hacking is essentially useless. I mean, you can't put this stuff on your resume. Finding motivation can be very hard, so I think most new projects devolve into months-long delays and eventual abandonment.

<hr></blockquote>

I've always felt that if future game developers can put down their Doom/Quake/Half-Life mods and levels than I should be able to put down CV Retold. I think I seriously am going to if I aply to be a level designer.

As for long delays, it seems like the average ROM hacker wants some huge overhaul and doesn't know how to go about it, I'll bring up CV Retold again, I made its levels in one week, but it took me another two to actually make them fun to play, tweaking and adding things until they were perfect. Most other ROM hackers probably would've focused on getting one level perfect and then moving on to the next, which drains your time and your motivation to get it done. When you've got a ROM full of half-finished levels you're more inspired to actually do something with it.
 
I won't debate whether ROM hacking is on the decline, but in many ways, I think it's too early to make definitive conclusions.

Check out my timeline:

1) First NES game acquired = 1988
2) First SNES game acquired = 1992
3) First worthwhile hacking of an SNES game = 2000
4) First patch released = early 2003

Holy shat, that's quite a delay between #2 and #3! If you were waiting for me to hack something in that period, you would have been mighty disappointed.

Yet I suspect plenty of active SNES hackers fit that timeline.. We tend to overlook that huge gap between encountering a game and tearing it to shreds, at least for ourselves.

So is it much surprise that the "next generation", which grew up on Playstation/PS2/etc games, isn't hacking those games within a couple years of buying them? And if they're that much younger than us, of course they won't be focusing on NES/SNES games if/when they DO start hacking, for the same reason you won't see me burning hours on Atari 2600 or Magnavox Odyssey games: the former was never a part of my youth, and when my parents did dust off their Odyssey on occasion, it was mainly just a curiosity for me to laugh at. *beep* *boop* *swivel* *beep*
 
> Sure
> there's a lot of bad formulaic games out now... but there
> were just as many bad games for the NES and older consoles.

Definately. I don't know how people can forget this.

Still, I enjoy my bad NES games much more than bad next-gen games. My mind works in 8 directions. This 3d stuff just confuses me. I'd much rather miss a platform by jumping too late or because of poor collusion detection rather than a shoddy camera angle or a bad sense of forward distance. It's like, with an NES game, I can suck at a game and it's my fault. With newer games, I can suck at the game and I can blame it on the camera waaaay too easily.

> We're getting old!

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>
 
I will agree that ROM hacking as a whole (translations and non) has slowed down over the past few years, but for many reasons. For translations, most of the "high profile" games for the 16 bit and below eras have been done now. It's shifting more towards obscure games (Which I actually enjoy), but not as many people are doing it.

In the realm of non translation hacks, there's been a marked decrease in hack releases, but you've got to put that in context. The vast majority of all hacks are really pieces of shit anyway, and still are. But over the past couple of years some of the most amazing hacks ever have been released, with more than a few in progress right now. I'd rather have quality than quantity any day.

But I get the feeling that we're going to see a spike in activity next year, or whenever the Revolution's classic game download service is up and running. Suddenly people who may not have been old enough to really play the SNES and NES will have access to basically their entire libraries, if I understand correctly. This will probably spark interest in them again to a broader group of people.

The flip-side to all of this, though, is that I fear Nintendo will begin to *strictly* begin to crack down on emulation as a whole, since it will start to tangibly effect their income. If this drives "the scene" underground, then access to it won't be as ready as it's been since 1996 or so. Whether this will simply limit the amount of newcomers, or actually make it smaller, <img src=smilies/mystery.gif>.
 
You bring up some very interesting points but I think I see a flaw in your logic. You're assuming that events may more or less duplicate themselves are far as a gestation time period. The ideas to do all this are already established. I rather think that it would take the next generation much less time to begin if they are aware of our activities in even the slightest. Besides, who's to say that events shall unfold in a similiar way that they did for us? The the conditions just aren't the same. If the internet had been around in the 80s and been as mainstream then as it is now, then maybe your analysis would hold better. As PCs and their software and userbase have developed, ideas like NES emulators became more realizeable. Can you imagine trying to play nes roms in an emulator that had been developed on windows 3.1? Or the earlist GUI days of the black and white mac? I do think you have something here. Obviously 7 year olds aren't going to make very good rom hackers. My dad might have back in his NES guru gaming days. The teenagers of the 80's might have as well. Basically, the younger ones need to be given enough time to mature so that they can pursue rom hacking. Be that as it may, I still stand by my view that many of these would lack the background to really care about hacking snes and nes games, even WITH having been exposed to the GBA. I'd expect scorn at worst, apathy as the middle ground, and only a slight interest at best from most of the others.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Still, I enjoy my bad NES games much more than bad next-gen games. My mind works in 8 directions. This 3d stuff just confuses me. I'd much rather miss a platform by jumping too late or because of poor collusion detection rather than a shoddy camera angle or a bad sense of forward distance. It's like, with an NES game, I can suck at a game and it's my fault. With newer games, I can suck at the game and I can blame it on the camera waaaay too easily.

<hr></blockquote>

This is how I am too, back in the day if a game had bad controls you could still have fun. Some of those games really sucked though, but I think today's sucky games are worse, because of 3D. I don't know how many big-name 3D games I've played where I'm jumping blind because the camera decides I don't need to see the hole infront of me, I need to see my character...

I do, however, love 3D platformers. They're rare, but they're great, it's playing in "8 directions" as you say, but the path you're on turns as you run through the level.

A good example of this is Mega Man X8 (Now if only they didn't have those annoying "racing" levels...)
 
> Basically, the younger ones
> need to be given enough time to mature so that they can
> pursue rom hacking. Be that as it may, I still stand by my
> view that many of these would lack the background to really
> care about hacking snes and nes games, even WITH having been
> exposed to the GBA. I'd expect scorn at worst, apathy as the
> middle ground, and only a slight interest at best from most
> of the others.
>

But if this was simply a matter of game players coming of age to do ROM hacking of the consoles they grew up with, why aren't we currently seeing as many N64 hacks coming out as we saw SNES and NES hacks coming out a few years ago? As many Saturn and Dreamcast hacks as we used to see Genesis hacks? I think the answer lies in part in that a) as game get more complex, they're a lot harder to hack well, and b) recent gamers may have less of a tendency to feel much nostalgia for the games of their youth, because there's less of a sense of particular platforms defining their gaming childhood, because platform turnover is speeding up (or is that just my imagination?).

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<center><img src=http://pages.nyu.edu/~jc73/misc/FieryAshNazg.gif></center></p>
 
Good points. You're right the gestation should be shorter nowadays, and that plenty of knowledge is in place. Then again, the SNES gestation period had a bit of a headstart due to its processor being so similar to the highly documented NES, and look how long it took for comprehensive (read: not crappy) hacks to come out.

Take Final Fantasy 6/3. It's one of the most hacked and well-documented games I've seen. Sure, it was being deciphered in 2000, but how many patches worth squat were out for it then? That's a full *six* years after its release, and even with that time and the ability to leverage prior NES knowledge, the patches available were probably a laugh by today's standards.

Playstation hacking (for instance) may have the advantage of more of its system's heyday occurring after the Internet became mainstream, but afaik, it lacks the advantage of somebody being able to (directly) apply their knowledge of a past console to it.


> I still stand by my view that many of these would lack the
> background to really care about hacking snes and nes games,

Note I didn't contest that view, and actually agreed with it in the closing parts of my post. A new crop of potential game hackers is going to have a new crop of platforms that command their interest.
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by assassin on 11/28/05 06:09 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Didn't like 30 people purchase Dreamcasts? :p N64 hardly did as well as NES and SNES (at least not portionately; I don't know the sales numbers). So fragmentation figures into your fine "less of a sense of particular platforms defining their gaming childhood" point.

There was a time that if you said you played video games but weren't familiar with Super Mario Brothers 1, you'd be launched to a prison colony on Pluto. Simply saying "100 lives" was enough to have people know what you meant and conjur up an image of that stairway; preceding or following it with a game title was just a waste of breath.


> as game get more complex, they're a lot harder to hack well,

word.. i've never tried to hack Mario 64, but just hearing people on Acmlm talk briefly about the 3D texture modelling mapping nonsense almost made by head explode. I don't graphics hack, but that's where a lot of people seem to get their starts, and scrolling through your 2D ROM (whatever game it may be) with TileLayer sounds a ton easier than trying to make sense of some mess of vectors.
 
This post has for some reason inspired me to update my nearly five year old document on PlayStation 1 hacking basics. Maybe more will come of the practically dead PSX translating/hacking scene. The current doc is garbage, and full of bad info.
 
> many Saturn and Dreamcast hacks as we used to see Genesis
> hacks? I think the answer lies in part in that a) as game
> get more complex, they're a lot harder to hack well,

It's funny though. Outisde maybe 3D graphics and the fact the games use CD, I don't find hacking most PS1 games all that much harder than NES/SNES/GB/ETC. I've seen games that are assholes to hack, but you can find those on any platform. Right now a god damn gameboy game is giving me more grief than my main PS1 project. :p
 
I would argue it's already died once. Pretty much everyone from the 1996 era has grown up and moved on. Grading homework for 70 hours a week and lecturing for 10 doesn't really lend itself to hobby time. Some people are even married ... with children. That's guaranteed to nuke any remains of free time you had.

All the documentation produced from that time was left to the next 2000-era hack community. They've wrote some new stuff, and now they're going the same route. I'm sure there will be a third wave following this pattern.

Don't forget the whole ROM hack scene basically rode in ont he coattails of the famidev scene, which produced a shitload of system documentation that made hacking (and a lot of early emulation) possible in the first place.

The scene is not dying. YOUR SCENE is dying. There will eventually be another.
 
Heh, you'd think 3-D 'camera dynamics' would be a piece of cake by now. :p I don't know though....there's still quite a few good next gen games in my opinion, I don't know that current bad games are worse the older bad games though...I mean, come on...Pit Fighter for the SNES anyone? <img src=smilies/errrr.gif>
 
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