Important info on ROMs

[Chapu]

Well, I mostly agree on many opinions I've read in this thread so far. ZD should *not* be a place where to find illegal ROMs. There's plenty of other sites for that.
What I come to ZD for is the... ambience, for lack of a better word. I know that here I'll find people who truly love gaming, as I do, and I'll be able to share experiences and in-jokes with them. And hell, maybe download a translation patch, a public domain rom or two, or some technical documentation.
I've asked for this on another thread before, but you know what? To all of you guys who'd like ZD to keep with it's original spirit, and in the meantime help even a little bit to stop piracy, why don't you upload guides to make ROM dumpers for different systems? God knows that if I ever find one, I'd build it ASAP and start dumping all of my carts. Even some crazy HK originals I have that arne't around the inet, just for historical purposes. After all, I'm pretty sure those aren't illegal to have, right?

 

[Xeon3D]

Why bother going through all that effort? I don't see what's so wrong about cramming 18 DS games you bought onto a flash card so you don't have to carry around all of them; or, in the case of the PSP, one or two games off of your MS Pro Duo so you don't waste battery charge on running the UMD drive. I don't consider any of that pirating.

No. That may not be piracy. But that's what all flash cart owners do right? Just for their own games. Please do note that what I'm going to say afterwards may not apply to you. I'm not saying that you do pirate, but there's a word in my language ("cínico" which roughly translates to "one who says one thing and makes the point that that's only what he does while he does completely the opposite", I don't know the translation to english).
Most people, as soon as this topic goes into debate say that that's all they use their flashcards \ exploits \ modchips for. That and homebrew of course.
I don't really understand why there are so many ROM sites and why commercial ROMs are so requested.

Whatever. Your English is better than many native speakers.

Thank you. I reckon it's quite good, but there's another level that I plan to achieve.

As for the original topic, rattlehead is not a lawyer. While I'm not one either, it does help sometimes if you read the laws, rulings, and exceptions. The ruling applies to the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA. That means that it only allows certain people (libraries and archives) to bypass copy protection measures in order to serve their function as a library / archive. While the legal definition of what an archive is or isn't could be a little murky, the organization would still have to own a copy of the original work. Furthermore, the copy they would get from circumventing any of the original work's copy protection would be for archival purposes only. This ruling doesn't let you offer games to everyone and his brother.

So basically, what you're saying is that it's illegal to host commercial ROMs. That's all I've been telling these guys.

Well, I mostly agree on many opinions I've read in this thread so far. ZD should *not* be a place where to find illegal ROMs. There's plenty of other sites for that.

True. Will the thread opener please add a poll to the topic? I'd love to see the results.

What I come to ZD for is the... ambience, for lack of a better word. I know that here I'll find people who truly love gaming, as I do, and I'll be able to share experiences and in-jokes with them. And hell, maybe download a translation patch, a public domain rom or two, or some technical documentation.

Spirit maybe? I totally agree with the rest.

I've asked for this on another thread before, but you know what? To all of you guys who'd like ZD to keep with it's original spirit, and in the meantime help even a little bit to stop piracy, why don't you upload guides to make ROM dumpers for different systems? God knows that if I ever find one, I'd build it ASAP and start dumping all of my carts. Even some crazy HK originals I have that arne't around the inet, just for historical purposes. After all, I'm pretty sure those aren't illegal to have, right?

To my knowledge there aren't that many "homemade ROM copier" how-to, schematics or diagrams. Your best bet could be buying a used one from eBay / CG. Other option would be finding a respected scene member that owns a copier and send the carts to him. People used (and maybe still do) to use that scheme with arcade boards for the MAME project. And, yes, I don't think those would be illegal to have since you own a physical copy of the "work" so the copy you made can indeed be called a Backup which is allowed by your Law.

Also, I don't think we're here to help stop piracy. We're just not promoting (?) it. Note that this is a topic about ZD. I don't think we should give a crap about what other websites do, and I don't really know of an Emulation Website that does indeed distribute commercial ROMs (note that I'm speaking about Emulation websites and not those ROM sites that also distribute the emulators as well.).

To finish, I'd like to thank you all for your opinions on this, even if I think that this discussion shouldn't be here on the first place. It is Zophar's Domain afterall.

 

[the_importer]

Why, why, why are we even speaking of copyrighted material? If we're adding those, we might as well start an exploit section with exploits for the various consoles, with links to offsite copyrighted stuff...

I think you're missing the point of ZD.

If all of you who want to spend time (maybe lots of) updating and adding commercial or doubtful roms to the site, spent the same amount updating the emulation section with releases (old releases that are still newer than the files on ZD and with no need for a newspost, or maybe just a general one saying "all the emulators have been updates where possible"), or even just helping in your area of choice, maybe ZD would be in a better shape than what it is ATM.

I can't really tell if this is true, but it seems to me that most content managers are kinda "new" to ZD. Maybe you've been a part of the old forums for a long time, maybe not. I can only remember some of you from the old times (The 9th Sage, Iconoclast, Lillymon as well but she's not a content manager I think.) and sincerely I can't remember any of you being part of the old ZD Staffer team.

I wish you could have been part of the Staff on the good old days. Then you would know what the true spirit of ZD was at those times.

For commercial roms there are sites with way more content and with a more effective system than ZD has. There are torrent files with full sets for most of the systems, even CD based ones as the Saturn.

ZD was never about roms \ piracy even if it could be exploited not to look as if it was piracy.

ZD was about emulation to the full extent of it, the technology, the scene, the completeness of it's archives, so that even in a (maybe not so) distant future, people could see what we were doing in 2008 just as now people can still see how the emulation scene was in 2000.

I used to spend hours making news posts and updating the old html based archive. In fact I might still hold the record for most (quality) newsposts in a row (28 I believe it was). I'd spent countless hours looking for news on sites, in times where there wasn't such a thing as a RSS feed, I'd upload 4 and 8Mb files on a 56k dialup connection, all that because I loved (and still do) love the emulation and the emulation scene. I've never updated a ROM (not even a PD one), not because it wasn't my job (it really wasn't, there was another staff for that section), but because I thought (and still do) that ROMS wasn't what ZD was all about.

Even as I speak, it's 2 PM at the moment where I live, I didn't sleep yet, but there are no new emulator releases since my last newspost. Sure there are plenty of old ones to update and I'll get to that as well, but I'm going to sleep thinking I did a good job and that maybe I helped so that this stupid (IMHO) discussion ends.

I wish we could have Brad's or Sam's opinion on this. I'd really like to read them.

Oh, the good old days...

Have you read Zophar's Emulation Dream article recently?

Zophar has long hosted Music taken directly from old school video games, that's technically illegal and any company who owns the right to these could force you to remove them. You can't be against once type of piracy and the turn around and allow another, so how do you JUSTIFY this?

BTW, your answer can't be "Because it's not as bad as hosting ROMs" because my answer is going to be "But hosting ROMs is not as bad hosting bootleg movies and commercial games".

As for the nostalgia part, get over it, times change, you can't live in the past.

 

[Chapu]

You're right, Xeon. I may have not expressed myself quite properly when I wrote "stop piracy". English isn't my native language either, actually that'd be Spanish, just like you (y entiendo perfectamente bien a lo que te referís con lo de "cínicos" :-D ).
Of course we shouldn't, as far as ZD goes, care about what the crap other websites are doing. But I could never help but wonder... How is it possible that so many people cry of "Piracy!" and at the same time the minimum tools and knowledge to prevent it (or at least diminish it) are not as readily available to the public just like the piracy itself is? I'm even starting to suspect there's some kind of economical interest involved in people not being able to legally make backup copies of the soft their own... Currently, the only reliable way to have a dumper of your own is to have an Electronics Engineering PhD or something!
Whatever be the case, I'll be retuning for sure to ZD, as I find it to be the single best community for serious emulation.

 

[Paladyn]

No. That may not be piracy. But that's what all flash cart owners do right? Just for their own games. Please do note that what I'm going to say afterwards may not apply to you. I'm not saying that you do pirate, but there's a word in my language ("cínico" which roughly translates to "one who says one thing and makes the point that that's only what he does while he does completely the opposite", I don't know the translation to english).

The English word is hypocrite.

Most people, as soon as this topic goes into debate say that that's all they use their flashcards \ exploits \ modchips for. That and homebrew of course.
I don't really understand why there are so many ROM sites and why commercial ROMs are so requested.

They're requested because people are cheap bastards. That will always be the case, but I don't see why legitimate uses should be curtailed because of people who are causing the real problem. Go after the ROM sites, not the modchips.

So basically, what you're saying is that it's illegal to host commercial ROMs. That's all I've been telling these guys.

Yes. I agree. Therefore, I posted.

 

[Xeon3D]

Zophar has long hosted Music taken directly from old school video games, that's technically illegal and any company who owns the right to these could force you to remove them. You can't be against once type of piracy and the turn around and allow another, so how do you JUSTIFY this?

BTW, your answer can't be "Because it's not as bad as hosting ROMs" because my answer is going to be "But hosting ROMs is not as bad hosting bootleg movies and commercial games".

As for the nostalgia part, get over it, times change, you can't live in the past.

My answer to the music archives question is simply "F*ck them". I don't really give a crap about them. If those disappeared I wouldn't even notice. They are to me the same as commercial roms.

Oh, and since when is a person not be able to have a little bit of nostalgia? Not that I'm living in the past, but I'm sticking to my ideals.

You're right, Xeon. I may have not expressed myself quite properly when I wrote "stop piracy". English isn't my native language either, actually that'd be Spanish, just like you (y entiendo perfectamente bien a lo que te referís con lo de "cínicos" :-D ).
Of course we shouldn't, as far as ZD goes, care about what the crap other websites are doing. But I could never help but wonder... How is it possible that so many people cry of "Piracy!" and at the same time the minimum tools and knowledge to prevent it (or at least diminish it) are not as readily available to the public just like the piracy itself is? I'm even starting to suspect there's some kind of economical interest involved in people not being able to legally make backup copies of the soft their own... Currently, the only reliable way to have a dumper of your own is to have an Electronics Engineering PhD or something!
Whatever be the case, I'll be retuning for sure to ZD, as I find it to be the single best community for serious emulation.

That's a way I don't want to go thru... (if this sounds funny it's because it's a Portuguese saying quickly and literally translated to English)

The English word is hypocrite.

Thanks a bunch!

They're requested because people are cheap bastards. That will always be the case, but I don't see why legitimate uses should be curtailed because of people who are causing the real problem.

Have a look into the world. That happens everywhere.

Go after the ROM sites, not the modchips.

I totally agree. Then if we add commercial roms to ZD, can we go after ZD as well?

[RANT]
And I still can't believe a thread about this has so many posts.
Your law says that copyrighted material cannot be distributed if you don't have the rights to. We don't so we do not distribute! What part can't you not understand?[/RANT]

 

[SparroHawc]

Personally, I love the music section; I usually use the music archives to grab the music from a game I own or have played, and listen to the tunes - there's a lot of nostalgia that gets associated with that music.

But if there was an uproar over it, I'd rather see the music section go than ZD as a whole.

In the defense of the music archives, there really isn't any marketability for old 8-bit/16-bit tunes. Sure, it's copyrighted material, but so is a photograph of the Mona Lisa. That doesn't mean someone's going to come after you for making a photocopy of the photograph. It has no real value to the creator.

Similarly, the music in a game is such a small part of the game itself that it could almost fall under the quotation rule - just having the music isn't anywhere close to having the whole copyrighted work. I would be more wary of ripping music from a modern system, especially if the creators might make a CD out of the soundtrack.

 

[Xeon3D]

In the defense of the music archives, there really isn't any marketability for old 8-bit/16-bit tunes. Sure, it's copyrighted material, but so is a photograph of the Mona Lisa. That doesn't mean someone's going to come after you for making a photocopy of the photograph. It has no real value to the creator.

Nope, since the photography itself is not a 1:1 copy of the copyrighted material, in this case, the mona lisa painting. But the music archives are indeed 1:1 copies of the music in the games. This argument of mine can easily be exploited, I know (Example: Then having a 1:1 copy of just the eye in the mona lisa paiting would also be copyright infringement, but maybe it IS...)

Similarly, the music in a game is such a small part of the game itself that it could almost fall under the quotation rule - just having the music isn't anywhere close to having the whole copyrighted work. I would be more wary of ripping music from a modern system, especially if the creators might make a CD out of the soundtrack.

Interesting Idea...

 

[SparroHawc]

Nope, since the photography itself is not a 1:1 copy of the copyrighted material, in this case, the mona lisa painting. But the music archives are indeed 1:1 copies of the music in the games. This argument of mine can easily be exploited, I know (Example: Then having a 1:1 copy of just the eye in the mona lisa paiting would also be copyright infringement, but maybe it IS...)

Not according to the USA's copyright laws. The Mona Lisa itself is not copyrightable; it is old enough it belongs to the public domain. However, any photograph taken of it is copyrightable by the photographer.

Hence, if you make any duplicate of the photo, you are infringing on its copyright; accuracy has nothing to do with it. Even a photocopy from a really bad photocopy machine is illegal.

 

[Xeon3D]

Thank you. That's what you get by not living in the good ol' USA

 

[SparroHawc]

Good ol'? It's getting less and less good ol' as the days go by, it seems... Did you ever hear about what -else- is in the DMCA?

 

[the_importer]

My answer to the music archives question is simply "F*ck them". I don't really give a crap about them. If those disappeared I wouldn't even notice. They are to me the same as commercial roms.

Oh, and since when is a person not be able to have a little bit of nostalgia? Not that I'm living in the past, but I'm sticking to my ideals.

And yet, you would want to get rid of the music archives? How can you be pro for nostalgia and not be pro for the music archives? That's also are part of the Zophar history. That's 2 contradictions so far, let's not go for 3

In the defense of the music archives, there really isn't any marketability for old 8-bit/16-bit tunes. Sure, it's copyrighted material, but so is a photograph of the Mona Lisa. That doesn't mean someone's going to come after you for making a photocopy of the photograph. It has no real value to the creator.

And Nintendo wouldn't go after Zophar for hosting old school ROMs for the same reason that they never went after the site for hosting Nintendo music. Like I said before:

-Copyright is copyright, but there are different levels

-Again, Planetemu.net has been hosting ROMs for the past 7 years and no big video game companies as EVER asked them to remove ROMs. I say big because some smaller ones such as the Bitmap Brothers did ask them to remove their old games once and Planetemu complied.

 

[Xeon3D]

And yet, you would want to get rid of the music archives? How can you be pro for nostalgia and not be pro for the music archives? That's also are part of the Zophar history. That's 2 contradictions so far, let's not go for 3

I'm pro for nostalgia. My kind of nostalgia didn't involve piracy. I miss the times when I was a staffer. The ambient, the spirit that was here. Then, and now, I could care fucking less about the music archives.

You're not supposed to have music of a game you never bought. So?

And Nintendo wouldn't go after Zophar for hosting old school ROMs for the same reason that they never went after the site for hosting Nintendo music. Like I said before:

-Copyright is copyright, but there are different levels

-Again, Planetemu.net has been hosting ROMs for the past 7 years and no big video game companies as EVER asked them to remove ROMs. I say big because some smaller ones such as the Bitmap Brothers did ask them to remove their old games once and Planetemu complied.

Then go post / work in Planetemu... sheesh.

Edman should make a poll on the front page to see if people wanted commercial roms added or not...

If I was in charge (which I'm not and really don't want to be) we wouldn't have music archives. we wouldn't have commercial roms. If you want the archive, get the rom and extract the sounds from it. We supply the tools already. You should get to do the illegal part not us. But since I'm not in charge we'll have to wait for Edman's decision on this. If this gets ahead and ZD ever gets a warning notice, I'll be the first one to say "I told you so".

Mind it we already supply commercial ROMS... WTF. Didn't even notice it.

There you go http://roms.zophar.net for all your ******* pleasure.

I'm done discussing this. I already made my point. You made yours. Do what you want to do. As if I fuckin care. ROM Kiddiez will always be ROM Kiddiez.

 

[Rattlehead]

No. That may not be piracy. But that's what all flash cart owners do right? Just for their own games. Please do note that what I'm going to say afterwards may not apply to you. I'm not saying that you do pirate, but there's a word in my language ("cínico" which roughly translates to "one who says one thing and makes the point that that's only what he does while he does completely the opposite", I don't know the translation to english).
Most people, as soon as this topic goes into debate say that that's all they use their flashcards \ exploits \ modchips for. That and homebrew of course.
I don't really understand why there are so many ROM sites and why commercial ROMs are so requested.



Thank you. I reckon it's quite good, but there's another level that I plan to achieve.



So basically, what you're saying is that it's illegal to host commercial ROMs. That's all I've been telling these guys.



True. Will the thread opener please add a poll to the topic? I'd love to see the results.



Spirit maybe? I totally agree with the rest.



To my knowledge there aren't that many "homemade ROM copier" how-to, schematics or diagrams. Your best bet could be buying a used one from eBay / CG. Other option would be finding a respected scene member that owns a copier and send the carts to him. People used (and maybe still do) to use that scheme with arcade boards for the MAME project. And, yes, I don't think those would be illegal to have since you own a physical copy of the "work" so the copy you made can indeed be called a Backup which is allowed by your Law.

Also, I don't think we're here to help stop piracy. We're just not promoting (?) it. Note that this is a topic about ZD. I don't think we should give a crap about what other websites do, and I don't really know of an Emulation Website that does indeed distribute commercial ROMs (note that I'm speaking about Emulation websites and not those ROM sites that also distribute the emulators as well.).

To finish, I'd like to thank you all for your opinions on this, even if I think that this discussion shouldn't be here on the first place. It is Zophar's Domain afterall.

The English word is hypocrite.



They're requested because people are cheap bastards. That will always be the case, but I don't see why legitimate uses should be curtailed because of people who are causing the real problem. Go after the ROM sites, not the modchips.



Yes. I agree. Therefore, I posted.

1. Yes, I'll post a poll...as soon as I figure out how.

2. I am not a cheap bastard! I know my dad, unfortunately.

3. I don't give a damn about the issue anymore. Zophar doesn't host commercial ROMs...so what!?

4. I probably won't ever give a damn again. There's just too much shit that I have to deal with in my life right now.

5. I'm the one who should be thanking everyone for their opinions, damn it!

 

[packardmelan]

Okay... this thread's going along, but it seems to be getting a little heated. I'd like to give a little bit more of my opinion on things, if it's okay.

I am a member of "Generation Y". And I'm a pirate. This appears to be a culture that is quickly becoming mainstream, especially in America. You can get anything from the media in some bootleg way. Movies on DVD while they're in theater. Non-DRM MP3s from torrent files. Chiptunes. Video games ROMs. ISOs.

And it's a moral dilemma. I 'support' movies and video game companies and the like as I can afford to. I'll see a movie in theaters if possible, but even if I can't, I'll download a rip and watch the thing -- if I like it, I buy the DVD upon release. Often "the special edition", which costs more. But sometimes... I just keep the pirated copy until I lose interest. Then it doesn't matter.

I download MP3s... mostly Japanese stuff that isn't offered in American stores. But I've pirated whole CDs, too. Sometimes to replace CDs from my collection that were scratched or stolen in the past - sometimes because I just want to get a song or two.

I've also bought off Amazon and iTunes, though.

I've listened to Chip Tunes like NSFs, but honestly? I'd rather listen to tracks off OCRemix. I'm honestly not sure what the legality of those are - but they seem more interesting and less outright piracy.

I download ROMs. I bought an R4 so I could pirate NDS games. Yet I still go out and buy games. It's not always a "try before you buy" mentality - sometimes I just don't feel a game is worth the price being asked. So I'll buy used... but also pirate games.

I'm a result of modern culture. I feel "entitled" to these downloads, but I also have a moral obligation to support these companies and to buy their products. I have more Wii games than I ever bought GC games, for instance... but instead of buying Rock Band, I'm using Frets on Fire and downloaded a torrent of ripped Rock Band tracks.

It's shady. I'm actually doing better now, buying games and music and movies -- but I'm not completely "legit" either. There's an ambiguity there, and a confusion. Nothing's quite defined. I firmly believe in BUYING. CONSUMING. But I pirate like anyone else does.

That said, Zophar.net was about the community. It was about the culture. But it was also 'clean' in the sense that we were here to talk to one another -- yes, about emulation and games -- but also about our lives. It wasn't a center for trading roms or conducting questionable activities. (Other than, you know, Diaries posts about underaged drinking and crap.)

It was really a turn -- for the worst, in my opinion -- when "Zophar's ROMS Domain" opened up.

 

[Umiliphus]

I never knew there were serious roms here. How about that.

Regardless of whether both are illegal, it has been my observation that game roms are a bigger liability to a website than game music files, though there are better sites for both of those (this one still favors the GYM format over vgz, for meep's sake), so neither need be a priority (disregard the fact that after all these years I have most of the stuff I want). Also, it is worth mentioning that the mentioned "planetemu" site is in French. It doesn't seem like that would make a difference, but it often appears to me that English sites are easier or more obvious targets. Emu-russia also still works.

 

[the_importer]

I'm pro for nostalgia. My kind of nostalgia didn't involve piracy. I miss the times when I was a staffer. The ambient, the spirit that was here. Then, and now, I could care fucking less about the music archives.

You're not supposed to have music of a game you never bought. So?

Just stating a contradiction, that's all.

Then go post / work in Planetemu... sheesh.

Edman should make a poll on the front page to see if people wanted commercial roms added or not...

If I was in charge (which I'm not and really don't want to be) we wouldn't have music archives. we wouldn't have commercial roms. If you want the archive, get the rom and extract the sounds from it. We supply the tools already. You should get to do the illegal part not us. But since I'm not in charge we'll have to wait for Edman's decision on this. If this gets ahead and ZD ever gets a warning notice, I'll be the first one to say "I told you so".


Mind it we already supply commercial ROMS... WTF. Didn't even notice it.

There you go http://roms.zophar.net for all your ******* pleasure.

If any companies that matter (Nintendo, SEGA, SNK, Hudson, Capcom, Konami, etc..) ever ask for Zophar to remove ROMs, you have full bragging rights (providing that there is proof of a request for removal)

I'm done discussing this. I already made my point. You made yours. Do what you want to do. As if I fuckin care. ROM Kiddiez will always be ROM Kiddiez.

ROM Kiddiez !!! I haven't heard that one in years. Unfortunately, I didn't work 10 years ago because I was already an adult when I got into emulation and it sure as hell doesn't work now

Also, Rule 45 dude !!!

 

[the_importer]

packardmelan, nice to see someone else with the balls to admit you you admited. I myself have tons of Anime and MP3s and I copy some DVD movies I rent (don't like to waste my time downloading them when it's faster to rent and support my local video store at the same time).

As for softwares, well I'm pro Freewares (yay SourceForge) and I got like 5 license of XP given to me by clients who didn't want them anymore because they went Vista (suckers ).

For games, well I don't play PC games but I do still play consoles games and I have like 12 Wii games, 12 GameCube games and 11 NDS games, all legally purchased.

And of course, I have my ROMs and PSX ISOs

I never knew there were serious roms here. How about that.

Regardless of whether both are illegal, it has been my observation that game roms are a bigger liability to a website than game music files, though there are better sites for both of those (this one still favors the GYM format over vgz, for meep's sake), so neither need be a priority (disregard the fact that after all these years I have most of the stuff I want). Also, it is worth mentioning that the mentioned "planetemu" site is in French. It doesn't seem like that would make a difference, but it often appears to me that English sites are easier or more obvious targets. Emu-russia also still works.

Actually, PlanetEmu is European French and if there's one place that's even more of a bitch than America when it comes to piracy, it's Western Europe. So if they can get away with it, anyone can.


Off-topic: I won't apologize for double posting since I can't edit my own posts >_>

 

[Soushkin]

Actually, PlanetEmu is European French and if there's one place that's even more of a bitch than America when it comes to piracy, it's Western Europe. So if they can get away with it, anyone can.
>_>

I wonder where you got that from. I'm from Holland and we can download movies and music as much as we desire. And it's actually legal too because we pay a fee on blank media.

One movie can get you 250k fine in the USA, same for music. Or three years in jail. No way we have such stupid sentences here to serve them dumbass companies.

France and England can be pretty harsh on downloading music and movies. They don't care much about them old games though, their police got better things to do than busting some ROMsites.

Off-topic: I won't apologize for double posting since I can't edit my own posts >_>

I can edit my posts to my hearts content so I'm wondering why you can't.

 

[packardmelan]

I can edit my posts to my hearts content so I'm wondering why you can't.

A little thing called "user permissions". You're a "content manager" -- so you have edit rights. We peons (new and old) don't. It'll take an admin to fix that.