Important info on ROMs

[Rattlehead]

I found a law that offers exemptions for older game systems. Therefore, that would make hosting commercial ROMs for older game systems (i.e. Atari 2600 to Dreamcast) legal to host! This is the part of that law, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, that exempts older games from being illegal:

17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(1)
"...computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

For further info on the DMCA: click here

 

[SparroHawc]

Note: There is a loophole; if a game is currently distributable by the owner of the copyright, it could be interpreted that a game is no longer 'distributed in a format that has become obsolete', because it is being distributed in an updated format. This will include any games available for the Wii Virtual Console, for instance.

 

[Rattlehead]

That would be the case if that amendment were made. As it currently stands, that hasn't been amended to the DMCA, so therefore it is legal. According to Wikipedia, the anti-circumvention exemptions were added in 2003, and it (the DMCA) was last updated in 2006.

 

[Edman]

Well, as I said, there's 2 issues here really:

1. Are we interpreting this correctly? I have a feeling this allows making of a single backup for archival purposes because preservation of the original is in danger. What is really meant by a "library" and an "archive" here? Does this law even mention distribution?

2. Do we really want to annoy Nintendo & co. into a million dollar lawsuit? Everyone here would be right and we'd still lose just because they have more money.


However, on that note, why doesn't Nintendo shut down ROM sites? There are soooo many ROM sites around, many have traffic levels of what looks like well above a million unique users a month, they are very old, they distribute very new stuff (Nintendo DS games, even), and yet, nothing happens. What is up with that?

 

[Kojote]

lots of publishers usually resell rights for their old games and have them remade for newer systems. that way you would immediatly have a interest conflict.

i would say let commercial be commercial.

 

[packardmelan]

YOU found this? -- No, this argument has been brought up many times before. With things like the Virtual Console, XBLA and PSN, many games are being re-released in forms that will keep these games 'current'.

Beyond that, with all of these clones on the open market - like the NES/SNES combos I can find at a local reseller, that means compatible hardware is available in the commercial market... thus keeping those games protected. You can still find the Dreamcast pretty easily, along with many older systems.

Beyond which, "backups" are allowed in many cases - but they are backups that you, yourself, have made personally. Unless explicitly stated by the license holder, sharing "roms" is actually quite illegal -- even if you own the original cart. See, the idea is that you have the right to physically backup a media to preserve its use. IE: I can take a VHS tape and use a PC and copy the video and audio off, and put it on a DVD for archive purposes/reuse -- through the personal use measure. However, if I then give that copied DVD to a friend, I've broken the law. I do not have a license to distribute that media.

Roms are the same.

 

[packardmelan]

Um... I can't edit my own posts. I wanted to remove that second "Beyond which".

 

[Xeon3D]

I also vote that we keep off Commercial Roms. There are PLEEENTY of Sites \ Ways to get them.

Nice to see you aboard Kojote! (Not that you remember me though..)

 

[leilei]

What about those unlicensed ones?

 

[Rattlehead]

Well, as I said, there's 2 issues here really:

1. Are we interpreting this correctly? I have a feeling this allows making of a single backup for archival purposes because preservation of the original is in danger. What is really meant by a "library" and an "archive" here? Does this law even mention distribution?

2. Do we really want to annoy Nintendo & co. into a million dollar lawsuit? Everyone here would be right and we'd still lose just because they have more money.


However, on that note, why doesn't Nintendo shut down ROM sites? There are soooo many ROM sites around, many have traffic levels of what looks like well above a million unique users a month, they are very old, they distribute very new stuff (Nintendo DS games, even), and yet, nothing happens. What is up with that?

YOU found this? -- No, this argument has been brought up many times before. With things like the Virtual Console, XBLA and PSN, many games are being re-released in forms that will keep these games 'current'.

Beyond that, with all of these clones on the open market - like the NES/SNES combos I can find at a local reseller, that means compatible hardware is available in the commercial market... thus keeping those games protected. You can still find the Dreamcast pretty easily, along with many older systems.

Beyond which, "backups" are allowed in many cases - but they are backups that you, yourself, have made personally. Unless explicitly stated by the license holder, sharing "roms" is actually quite illegal -- even if you own the original cart. See, the idea is that you have the right to physically backup a media to preserve its use. IE: I can take a VHS tape and use a PC and copy the video and audio off, and put it on a DVD for archive purposes/reuse -- through the personal use measure. However, if I then give that copied DVD to a friend, I've broken the law. I do not have a license to distribute that media.

Roms are the same.

What about those unlicensed ones?

1. Edman, after so long I would imagine that they realized that there are WAY too many sites to take every one of those webmasters to court. It would take an enormous amount of time and money. Also, I see WAY less ROM sites that offer games for newer systems. The newest I've seen around is the Dreamcast.

2. Okay, where to start with packardmelan? I'm tired of this, so fine. I'll let you call them "current"...but what about games that were released by companies that are now exclusive to a different company? Take Rare, for instance. They released Banjo-Kazooie on the N64, then get absorbed by Microsoft. They own the franchise, but Nintendo has the games. I'm not saying that there won't be a Banjo game for the Xbox 360, but that Nintendo can't release the current Banjo games in the Virtual Console w/out Rare's permission...which I doubt they'll get from Microsoft. Secondly, where are you finding NES/SNES combos? The closest that I've seen to that are those 100,000-in-1 bootleg consoles...which if what you're saying is true, is illegal. I've also never seen one of those at any local resellers in Northwest Arkansas, where I live which is a region of about 250,000+ people. And Dreamcasts are quite rare in the gaming stores around here. Lastly, I'm not talking about movies, which are not mentioned in the exemption for video games that I posted.

3. Xeon3D, I'm starting to agree. I'm getting pretty tired of this.

4. Leilei, unlicensed ROMs would be fine due to there not being a license for the game.

 

[Iconoclast]

Obviously there's no legal risk behind what you write here, but that doesn't mean there's just no risk.

I've learned to judge emulation sites that actually provide the images in general as undignified and untrustworthy in other areas of information. I have never seen a site as complete as Zophar's Domain in that aspect. Some people who view this website could even take offense if we were to apply this. And I'm sure one easy concept for us to understand is the great population of people using emulators made for lazy people and whining for restricted ROMs; naturally theft still multiplies across online.

To not apply this makes this site stand out as a memorial.

 

[The 9th Sage]

Uh, yeah, what PackardMelan says is right. I highly doubt he's purposely trying to offend you Rattlehead, I know him pretty well. It has always been this way...it is legal to make a backup for yourself (if say I want to back up my Mother 3 cart and use that backup, it is my right) but distributing it to others? Not so much.

Same with music (you can make a personal backup, despite what the RIAA might try to tell you). A lot of people don't bat an eye at downloading a torrent of albums these days, but does that make it legal to distribute it? Nope.

 

[leilei]

4. Leilei, unlicensed ROMs would be fine due to there not being a license for the game.

Not exactly, since they would still be copyrighted. No Nintendo blessing sure, but still copyrighted. It would be embarrassing if Wisdom Tree Games C&D'd their crap games from Zophar.

And I can't edit my own posts in this forum?

 

[the_importer]

Just going to add my 2 cents... who gives a fuck today anyway?

After being into emulation for 10 years, I can say for certain that neither Nintendo or SEGA give a damn about console emulation on PC (well Nintendo use to worry about the N64 when it when it came out and they're still looking at GBA and NDS emulation, but that's beside the point).

Planetemu has been one of the best source out there for getting GOOD_ROM dumps for the past 7 years now and they're still alive and kicking. Nintendo hasn't warned them before or after the Wii came out with it's Virtual Console service.

Fact remains, people who want to pay for old games will, people who don't won't. If I didn't have a micro ATX PC connected to my LCD TV with Wireless gamepads, I probably would embrace the VC, but as it stands, I do have all of this, so Nintendo strategy of selling my childhood birthday presents for 500 to 1000 Wii Points is not doing for me.

Guess what folks, it's also illegal to post pictures and art of copyrighted material without permission, but people do it anyway. And it's also illegal to spit your gum on the ground, but people do that anyway as well.

What I'm trying to point out is that there are different levels of piracy or any other crimes and emulation fits into the bottom. Software companies are much more worried about people selling bootlegged copies of their latest softwares then people downloading games for which they have long stop carrying about.

 

[Rattlehead]

Okay, info overload. Nah, just kidding. Anyway...9th Sage, he's in no way offended me. I just got a little heated due to some personal issues that I'm trying to deal with right now in my life.

Packardmelan, I'd like to apologize for going off on you like that. You're right and I'm sorry I took my anger out on you.

Leilei, I was mistaken. A copyright grants legal exclusivity to the copyright holder. A license lets allows the license holder to use the copyrighted material legally.

The_importer, I look at emulation the same way, in that game companies don't seem to give a fuck about older systems anymore. I don't use the VC either, because I'm unemployed and can play the same games for free. I think it's funny that you brought up art of copyrighted materials because the instances of that happening are extremely common, and no one says a word about it.

Anyway, I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my behavior, and would like to close by saying that I've changed my outlook on the situation. I think it would be legal to put up a "links" section to ROM sites, right?

 

[the_importer]

Anyway, I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my behavior, and would like to close by saying that I've changed my outlook on the situation. I think it would be legal to put up a "links" section to ROM sites, right?

Here's a good start: http://www.planetemu.net/index.php?section=roms&dat=715

 

[Xeon3D]

Why, why, why are we even speaking of copyrighted material? If we're adding those, we might as well start an exploit section with exploits for the various consoles, with links to offsite copyrighted stuff...

I think you're missing the point of ZD.

If all of you who want to spend time (maybe lots of) updating and adding commercial or doubtful roms to the site, spent the same amount updating the emulation section with releases (old releases that are still newer than the files on ZD and with no need for a newspost, or maybe just a general one saying "all the emulators have been updates where possible"), or even just helping in your area of choice, maybe ZD would be in a better shape than what it is ATM.

I can't really tell if this is true, but it seems to me that most content managers are kinda "new" to ZD. Maybe you've been a part of the old forums for a long time, maybe not. I can only remember some of you from the old times (The 9th Sage, Iconoclast, Lillymon as well but she's not a content manager I think.) and sincerely I can't remember any of you being part of the old ZD Staffer team.

I wish you could have been part of the Staff on the good old days. Then you would know what the true spirit of ZD was at those times.

For commercial roms there are sites with way more content and with a more effective system than ZD has. There are torrent files with full sets for most of the systems, even CD based ones as the Saturn.

ZD was never about roms \ piracy even if it could be exploited not to look as if it was piracy.

ZD was about emulation to the full extent of it, the technology, the scene, the completeness of it's archives, so that even in a (maybe not so) distant future, people could see what we were doing in 2008 just as now people can still see how the emulation scene was in 2000.

I used to spend hours making news posts and updating the old html based archive. In fact I might still hold the record for most (quality) newsposts in a row (28 I believe it was). I'd spent countless hours looking for news on sites, in times where there wasn't such a thing as a RSS feed, I'd upload 4 and 8Mb files on a 56k dialup connection, all that because I loved (and still do) love the emulation and the emulation scene. I've never updated a ROM (not even a PD one), not because it wasn't my job (it really wasn't, there was another staff for that section), but because I thought (and still do) that ROMS wasn't what ZD was all about.

Even as I speak, it's 2 PM at the moment where I live, I didn't sleep yet, but there are no new emulator releases since my last newspost. Sure there are plenty of old ones to update and I'll get to that as well, but I'm going to sleep thinking I did a good job and that maybe I helped so that this stupid (IMHO) discussion ends.

I wish we could have Brad's or Sam's opinion on this. I'd really like to read them.

Oh, the good old days...

Have you read Zophar's Emulation Dream article recently?

 

[The 9th Sage]

Why, why, why are we even speaking of copyrighted material? If we're adding those, we might as well start an exploit section with exploits for the various consoles, with links to offsite copyrighted stuff...

I agree with you whole-heartedly except on this one point. The exploits themselves do not equate piracy. Take the Twilight Hack. There is some neat stuff you can do with it that is definitely not piracy (ie playing an awesome port of QuakeGL on your Wii). The sad fact is that, of course, someone with know how will eventually say to themselves..."Can I do this? Maybe I can pirate (for example) Virtual Console channels this way...".

In this example, the hombrew has plenty of legitimate uses, and even the program that you can use to pirate the VC channels has some legitimate uses (installing homebrew Wii channels)...it is just sadly used by pirates too.

Anyway, that was a bit rant-like. That is just something that bothers me. Besides that, excellent post man.

 

[Xeon3D]

I agree with you whole-heartedly except on this one point. The exploits themselves do not equate piracy. Take the Twilight Hack. There is some neat stuff you can do with it that is definitely not piracy (ie playing an awesome port of QuakeGL on your Wii). The sad fact is that, of course, someone with know how will eventually say to themselves..."Can I do this?

As you say, then every exploit can be used for homebrew. So we can use them all, the Pandora thingy / Firmwares for PSP, ooooohhhh homebrew, FreeMCLoad for PS2 or Swap trick was only for homebrew as well, Nintendo DS WifiMe etc only started for homebrew as well!

In my opinion, it reeks of irony, every time a new exploit is released because they always announce they found out a new way to run homebrew code, but someone *always* finds a way to boot "backup" games out of it. I wonder if there's any exploit out there that can only run homebrew and not pirate copies even if it needs another program on top of it.

Sorry about the "rant-liness" of the posts. It's sometimes my fault for writing them that way added with the fact that my English is still not as good as if I was a native speaker, so my word choices may make it a little ranty. Also, sometimes, I can't just help it when people are trying to make something look like it's all right when in fact it is not!

 

[Paladyn]

As you say, then every exploit can be used for homebrew. So we can use them all, the Pandora thingy / Firmwares for PSP, ooooohhhh homebrew, FreeMCLoad for PS2 or Swap trick was only for homebrew as well, Nintendo DS WifiMe etc only started for homebrew as well!

In my opinion, it reeks of irony, every time a new exploit is released because they always announce they found out a new way to run homebrew code, but someone *always* finds a way to boot "backup" games out of it. I wonder if there's any exploit out there that can only run homebrew and not pirate copies even if it needs another program on top of it.

Why bother going through all that effort? I don't see what's so wrong about cramming 18 DS games you bought onto a flash card so you don't have to carry around all of them; or, in the case of the PSP, one or two games off of your MS Pro Duo so you don't waste battery charge on running the UMD drive. I don't consider any of that pirating.

Sorry about the "rant-liness" of the posts. It's sometimes my fault for writing them that way added with the fact that my English is still not as good as if I was a native speaker, so my word choices may make it a little ranty. Also, sometimes, I can't just help it when people are trying to make something look like it's all right when in fact it is not!

Whatever. Your English is better than many native speakers.

As for the original topic, rattlehead is not a lawyer. While I'm not one either, it does help sometimes if you read the laws, rulings, and exceptions. The ruling applies to the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA. That means that it only allows certain people (libraries and archives) to bypass copy protection measures in order to serve their function as a library / archive. While the legal definition of what an archive is or isn't could be a little murky, the organization would still have to own a copy of the original work. Furthermore, the copy they would get from circumventing any of the original work's copy protection would be for archival purposes only. This ruling doesn't let you offer games to everyone and his brother.