Console: 2D -> 3D

puduhead

New member
I never managed to successfully negotiate this transition adequately. It didn't help that I left my home world of 2D Southern California in Spring '95 (for a 2-year church mission assignment) only to come back to a consumer civilization virtually taken over by really shitty looking 3D. Some people never got over 'Nam. I never got over the death of 'hand drawn' gameplay.

A recent blog on destructoid helped me to see how 2D -> 3D was not so much a necessary evolution but rather a premature/outright coup of 2D. The blogger made what I thought to be a great analogy to painting and photography which totally opened my mind:

I think that today, with the passage of time, we recognize that 3D games are not the evolutionary next step of 2D games: they are completely different genres in the same way that we recognize photography and painting as two equally valid art forms even though photography was initially heralded as the evolutionary next step and replacement for painting.
-tascar

This is a big reason why emulation became so important to me. Even if it is not specifically a function of retro-gaming. There clearly exists an element of that within this community of gifted and ambitious coders and enthusiasts.

What do you think?
 
i 100% agree. I was lamenting on games today in another thread,in regards to gameplay falling to the wayside, and graphics becoming #1 priority, but I will briefly say that 2D will always have my heart. I even prefer games with a slightly angled 2d/3d overhead perspective (diablo,Zelda[snes] etc.) over 3D.

A majority (seemingly) of players nowadays tend to prefer the 3D environment in order to feel 'immersed' in a game. I feel this is unfortunate, as the human race is , as such, de-evolving into unimaginative curs.

"I don't need good graphics to have a good time" (should put that in a sig lol)
 
They can definitely both exist. I love me some 3-D games, but I'll always have a part of my heart set for the 2-D titles of old (and the new ones, many of which are on the DS).

I'm not like some though, 2-D and 3-D don't make games bad/good based solely on them being 2-D or 3-D. 2-D games DO still come out, just mostly on the DS, as I said. I think some games work better as 3-D, but some work better as 2-D (some styles of gameplay almost need to have one or the other...FPS for example, and Metroidavania apparently, given how much better Castlevania does in 2-D). It's hard to make that transition right (Nintendo's franchises for some reason being the exception since they've always done great at bringing those games into 3-D).

I do love some beautifuly drawn 2-D though. Just something about it sometimes. Case in point (wall paper made from a screen capture of the game):

 
i 100% agree. I was lamenting on games today in another thread,in regards to gameplay falling to the wayside, and graphics becoming #1 priority, but I will briefly say that 2D will always have my heart. I even prefer games with a slightly angled 2d/3d overhead perspective (diablo,Zelda[snes] etc.) over 3D.

A majority (seemingly) of players nowadays tend to prefer the 3D environment in order to feel 'immersed' in a game. I feel this is unfortunate, as the human race is , as such, de-evolving into unimaginative curs.

"I don't need good graphics to have a good time" (should put that in a sig lol)


I absolutely love that offset 3D overhead view as in Diablo and it made real 3D games like Neverwinter Nights also have a more workable feel. The real problem with true 3D is you have no clue whats behind you. In real life you hear, smell, and if attacked feel instantly where the attack is coming from. In 3D you are blind behind and it a huge drawback but with the overhead angled view you can see as much as you would hear in real life.

Zelda OOT kind of drove me nuts like Mario 64 for N64 did because I was always totally unaware of what was behind me and even if I knew something was behind me unlike real life I couldn't just spin around to the proper angle to defend attack myself since in real life nerves would tell me where I was hit so I would instinctively turn around but not when playing N64 which made it absolutely unrealistic and all games are like that to my knowledge. That lack of a real response makes immersion impossible for me since in real life you concentrate on what's in front of you and spin around to see where a sound came from without thought. Once nintendo gets that normal human reaction programmed into a game realistically then they will have a more 3D experience instead of just worrying about textures.

That's also the reason overhead offset is still king and why Diablo3 will be my new favorite game.
 
I absolutely love that offset 3D overhead view as in Diablo and it made real 3D games like Neverwinter Nights also have a more workable feel. The real problem with true 3D is you have no clue whats behind you. In real life you hear, smell, and if attacked feel instantly where the attack is coming from. In 3D you are blind behind and it a huge drawback but with the overhead angled view you can see as much as you would hear in real life.

Zelda OOT kind of drove me nuts like Mario 64 for N64 did because I was always totally unaware of what was behind me and even if I knew something was behind me unlike real life I couldn't just spin around to the proper angle to defend attack myself since in real life nerves would tell me where I was hit so I would instinctively turn around but not when playing N64 which made it absolutely unrealistic and all games are like that to my knowledge. That lack of a real response makes immersion impossible for me since in real life you concentrate on what's in front of you and spin around to see where a sound came from without thought. Once nintendo gets that normal human reaction programmed into a game realistically then they will have a more 3D experience instead of just worrying about textures.

That's also the reason overhead offset is still king and why Diablo3 will be my new favorite game.

Holy Crap, thank god I'm not the only one that hates 3D for that very reason(though some games do it right and the control schemes allow for avoiding the 'back-stabbing-disorientation" crisis.).

For years I've seen friends of mine quit AE and go to WoW, and I honestly don't get it. I've played it, but it gets old fast for me.(Plus I cannot rationalize leaving a game /community of 7-8+years for a 3d game i cant get into)

If you ever wanna check it out (any of you) here's a screeny of me healing at a dragon boss in AE (only to show the 'tilted' overhead view, more than anything, but you guys are all pretty cool, and I'd love to have more people playing with meh :D)

ashenempires00180.png


(not the GREATEST screeny of the game but it will do for now)
 
Just to clarify: The Subject Title did say Console. ;)

PC is a format where I am much more accepting of 3D. For example, I do enjoy FPS, but only on a PC with mouse/keyboard sitting in front of a monitor. I hate playing FPS with a game controller - which is the ultimate level of gameplay frustration for me, touching on what Shawn mentioned.

In contrast, console was always more adept at scrolling 2D. Console had a lot to offer still in 2D based on the legacy, the game controller, the casual nature of sitting back on a couch, recliner, or bed. And unfortunately, many of the existing franchises just did not transfer well to 3D. Ironically, most of those franchises never had their chance to be seen in the higher-res 32-bit thousands+ color 2D display. They were plucked from a fairly beautiful 16-bit 2D rendering and transplanted to the eyesore known as 1st Generation 3D.

Diablo 2 is one of those awesome rarities that uses real 'hand drawn' animation in a 3D plane. I don't know how often that will be duplicated now. Even it's descendant will use polygons for character animations. I don't really have a problem with this per se. I think Warcraft 3's graphics are adequate despite being all polygon. In general, overhead gameplay certainly benefits a great deal from a 3D plane. The only question then is whether you prefer classically drawn characters or the more mathematical looking polygon. I love this RTS/action-rpg genre so i'm not too picky on the details. Its best for PC anyway which is not even in my crosshairs for this thread.

To summarize - 3D is mainly for FPS, Racing, and (i guess you would call it?) 'Cinematic action-adventure'. Some of the games released for console today would be easier/more intuitive to control on a PC. 2D is a gorgeous genre of gaming whose extinction was forced. Making 2D/3D hybrids or half-inspired sequels for tiny screens is not sufficient evidence of 2D's continuation. A shell of its former self perhaps.

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Now as for the Emulation factor:

The community atoned for some of the industry's 1st Generation 3D sins with enhanced graphics and reconfigured controls for mouse/keyboard.

I've actually played through one of the N64 Castelvanias in emulation after tweaking controls for use of mouse/keyboard. Really enhanced gameplay and made it more fun.

Anyone that can flesh out ideas for how emulation has improved early 3D console gaming - please add!
 
Anyone that can flesh out ideas for how emulation has improved early 3D console gaming - please add!

In my opinion it really hasn't. Not the fault of emulation though. It just makes it possible to play on a computer. The problem I find since I don't use controllers is that there are WAY to many control options to make it fun and to get into it.

Take Diablo 2 for instance for a well designed game. Right click left click shortcut keys for potions or whatever you need. Bad is though I really like the game Zelda OOT. It's a bitch to use the scroll and the IKJL keys without dying a lot of times just trying to change from say slingshot to deku nut since you have to move your hand off the scroll and stop moving. Then you have the ASDZXC keys which I hit the wrong one so often.

Basically it comes down to getting used to remembering what does what and even with a controller it can be a bitch. Hell MS's Fable seemed like an incredible game but there were like 20+ keys to memorize and their Flight Simulator was even more frustrating with a massive amount of keys to memorize and both lasted maybe a day tops before I uninstalled and gave away the game to a friend.

When designing 3D games player movement and mouse movement should be default thinking when designing the game. As for controls like I said before the less the better and when you have a lot of choices games like Never Winter Nights with their right click to choose spells or attacks was a thing of beauty. Sure you had to remember what was where but by hitting the spacebar and pausing the game so you could find what you needed or assigning function keys with a visual icon at the bottom of the screen to remind you what each key did made the game less a chore of memorization and gave more time for coming up with strategies and made it a much more fun experience.

I think one of the major problems with 3D games is the designer/programmers. Not really their fault though since they don't realize that because they are incredibly smart and most have great memories they don't realize that memorizing 8 or 10 keys besides the scroll keys is not easy for most people and I was never comfortable with having to hit key combos ever.

Yes the problem is that they are to smart which is why they need basically a person of normal intellect to say to them occasionally to keep it simple and intuitive since we are not all computer geniuses nor do we want to be especially when doing something for fun like gaming.

So the worst thing about 3D gaming is to much complexity when it comes to game controls.
 
PC is a format where I am much more accepting of 3D. For example, I do enjoy FPS, but only on a PC with mouse/keyboard sitting in front of a monitor. I hate playing FPS with a game controller - which is the ultimate level of gameplay frustration for me, touching on what Shawn mentioned.

Words cannot describe how much I am in agreement on this...
 
Words cannot describe how much I am in agreement on this...

I see what you're saying, but when I play something like Metroid Prime 3...it just feels really great. Then again, Wiimote + nunchuck is about the closest thing to a mouse and keyboard setup on a console unless you're hooking a mouse right up to the system or something (I *think* some X-Box games support this? Maybe?)
 
I'm in love with 2D games, but there are some 3D games that I play. But looking over at my bookshelf, I realise that I have more SNES games alone than I have 3D games.

The way I see it, 2D games are awesome, but sometimes, 3D is needed (depending on genre). for example, Sidescrollers and top down games obviously need to be 2D, whereas racing and 1st/3rd person shooters only exist in 3D. RPGs are kind of a mix. Obviously there's alot more potential in a 3D RPG, but they always have to ruin it by making everything take a half hour to do. In a 2D rpg, you can fight a boss in 3-5 minutes, and then watch a 'cinematic' or story progression for another 2-3 minutes, advancing the plot significantly in less than 10 minutes. In a 3D RPG, it takes about 30 seconds for the fight to start, and then about 20 seconds for each overexaggerated special attack, and another 10 minutes of cinematic. I'm not going to lie, this is why I have so much trouble playing modern RPGs.

What's cool for anyone who loves the 2D genre (honestly, comparing 2d to 3d is like comparing a book to a movie), is Nintendo. The GBA and DS have so many classic 2D games like Metroid Fusion / Zero mission, so many castlevanias, Fire emblem x3. The DS has 2 Castlevanias and that mario game that I've never played and more, i'm sure. In addition, the WII has alot to offer in it's Wii ware, such as a new Contra, which is pretty good, and the sequel to FF4, which despite being terribly unbalanced and poorly constructed, is actually alot of fun and has a pretty good story, you just have to look past it's many flaws.

But at the end of the day, 2D is > than 3D for me.
 
I see what you're saying, but when I play something like Metroid Prime 3...it just feels really great. Then again, Wiimote + nunchuck is about the closest thing to a mouse and keyboard setup on a console unless you're hooking a mouse right up to the system or something (I *think* some X-Box games support this? Maybe?)

Nintendo is really an exceptional company. I now have Metriod Prime 1&2 for Gamecube and the level of control intuition for gamepad is adequate. Really nice games (haven't played the Wii one).

That being said, i'm still looking forward to the day i can play them on my PC with mouse/kb in emulation. :D
 
well i think everyone sees it's two different creatures....thats why nintendo is going back to the 2d like a lot of the ds games as well as the new mario coming out for wii(no not galaxy 2 -the other one)
 
Nintendo is really an exceptional company. I now have Metriod Prime 1&2 for Gamecube and the level of control intuition for gamepad is adequate. Really nice games (haven't played the Wii one).

That being said, i'm still looking forward to the day i can play them on my PC with mouse/kb in emulation. :D

Gamecube/Wii emulation works better than you'd think...need a pretty good system for it though. Anyway, you ought to get Metroid Prime Trilogy (assuming you have a Wii). You'd get the third game, and the first two with Wii controls (and little tweaks like some bugfixes and real widescreen support).

They control really well, the accuracy is very good. After playing MP3, it felt really weird to go back and try to replay the Gamecube ones with the GC's controller. It's weird, because like you I had no problem with the controls of them. It only started to feel weird after I felt how good the Wii controls were. :p

*edit*
Also....mmmm...Mario Galaxy. That is an example of an incredibly well realized 3-D game right there. Galaxy is astounding. Anyone who has a Wii and hasn't played it should feel ashamed. ;)
 
I always had trouble with Zelda OOT but I think with the wii controller it would actually make it a much better gaming experience just because of the controller once I got used to the controller.

I am though holding off buying one though. I figure like anything 1st generation the next version controller ought to iron out all the shortcomings of the current version and add stuff no one even thought of.
 
Also....mmmm...Mario Galaxy. That is an example of an incredibly well realized 3-D game right there. Galaxy is astounding. Anyone who has a Wii and hasn't played it should feel ashamed. ;)

I have a Wii, and the game, and barely have touched it. What does that say about me? ;p
 
I think people have the wrong idea here. Take 2D RPGs and 3D RPGs there isn't the perceived difference there is stated in this thread. Look at any 2D Tales of and and 3D Tales of they are just as long in the cinematics. The only change was they use 3D models and the battles systems are on a 3D plain instead of a 2D one. Fact is if they went back to 2D cuts scenes would just be done in Anime and take as long, it was the increasing disk space that brought about that change.

Really 3D can bolster backgrounds from the top down perspective. Although I think static vertical cameras could allow good use of drawn art character on 3D backgrounds relying on highres 2D texture art to make something that is 2D but 3D. However what is wrong is the obsession with making 3D uber realistic, rather than more artsy and stylistic.

Besides 3D doesn't mean behind the back Mario64 style or first-person. I mean Phantasy Star did first person back on the SMS and if you ever seen the Generation version...
(Stupid google and no useful screen shots on that)
 
Look at any 2D Tales of and and 3D Tales of they are just as long in the cinematics. The only change was they use 3D models and the battles systems are on a 3D plain instead of a 2D one.

Look at FF4 or FF6 vs FF7 or FF8. Or Knight's of the Round / Omni Slash vs Meteo / Bahamut / Bum Rush / Ultima.

I think the point that I was trying to make earlier about 3D RPGs was that people have become obsessed with making every attack / Cinematic take forever in order to show off all the angles and details. It felt more like a movie than a game. I don't know about you guys, but I get enough of movies in movies.
 
I have a Wii, and the game, and barely have touched it. What does that say about me? ;p

Well, considering how much I love that game, I'm not sure. o_O

Really 3D can bolster backgrounds from the top down perspective. Although I think static vertical cameras could allow good use of drawn art character on 3D backgrounds relying on highres 2D texture art to make something that is 2D but 3D. However what is wrong is the obsession with making 3D uber realistic, rather than more artsy and stylistic.

That's a good point...most of the 2-D Castlevanias (of recent years...read: after Rondo of Blood) have generally run on game engines that do 2-D with 3-D hardware. They sometimes use it for really neat backgrounds that give it a lot of depth at times when you're out wandering around in the castle (or whatever other area you happen to be in).
 
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KotR does 130k damage, though. I'm happy to sit through a long animation to break damage limit (it also isn't REALLY that long). Although I do like when you can use shortened versions of summons. Or when you do what FF8 did, give the player a good reason to drag out the summons. It does take too long for attacks, sometimes. One of my biggest issues with FF7 is that the long attack animations actually imbalance the game, because you're forced to either just have all ATB bars fill up or use one attack at a time while you wait in the items/magic menu for the previous attack to complete. It's only the relative ease of gameplay challenge that allows that to be acceptable. Also one of the reasons I hate FF7 fanboys.
 
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