Race.

[Danoz]

Funny, that in the land of the free people make race an issue when it's not. We could plug out statistics all day long, it all comes down to the fact that we're the same under our skin covers. Opportunities are now equally distributed. Affirmative Action is racist in the way that it assumes black men and women are incapable of competing in this country without a “handicap”, and it also assumes bogus ideas of subconscious discrimination. These differences are now the result of people victimizing themselves because society shifts their accountability to statistics and history long passed.

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[juggaleaux]

> We could plug out statistics all day long, it all comes down to the fact that we're the same
> under our skin covers

Bullshit. We are not the same.

Blacks have a more difficult time landing well-paying jobs, not due to skill, but due to prejudice. Therefore, most blacks are stuck working low-end jobs, living in low-income housing. And it's not necessarily their fault. When you live in a slum, you are surrounded by crime in the forms of thieves, gangs, and it's difficult to even walk home without having to follow many unwritten rules of how to walk home: what to look at, how to walk, what you can wear, etc to avoid being victimized. Basically there is no choice but to become a criminal yourself to survive.

The only people the black culture can blame for lack of professional success is themselves. Sagging pants, rap music, heavy slang, and basically "keeping it gutta" may fly in the hood, but will get you nowhere in the marketplace. Therefore, most are stuck living a life of crime as a risky alternative to make ends meet. The only thing a black man can do to break free of this system is dress himself nice and educate himself well. The problem is that most won't do this, because of the heavy urban influence around him. If all your friends are gangstas, you sure will have a difficult time studying to be a lawyer. Escaping this system could result in your being a "sellout," and shunned from your neighborhood, where returning could get you beaten.

As for racism, some whites are racist against urban lifestyles because I'd bet they are threatened by it. I've found that it's really quite harmless once you get to know it. Either that, or they refuse to let go of old pre-civil war traditions. Hey, you redneck, you can put that rebel flag down. We lost that war YEARS ago. Most usually reply with "This flag isn't about slavery, it's about Southern heritage." One of my black friends went around waving a rebel flag saying, "Oh yeah? Well I'm proud to be from Louisiana too! Guess I'll wave this as I please as well!" The rednecks were bewildered; I laughed my ass off in delight.

Black racism against whites is usually caused by the ignorance by the white people. If everywhere a black guy goes, white people say, "Yo, what up, G-dog?" he will begin to dislike whites and their overwhelming ignorance of black culture.

To sum it all up, we might be all the same under the skin AT BIRTH, but our surroundings, lifestyle, and experience change all that very quickly.

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[Reaper man]

> Hey, you redneck, you can put that rebel
> flag down. We lost that war YEARS ago.


mother, fucking, <img src=smilies/werd.gif>

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[SpaceTiger]

I've rarely seen this country's racial problem expressed so eloquently. I totally agree. <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

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[Danoz]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Blacks have a more difficult time landing well-paying jobs, not due to skill, but due to prejudice.

<hr></blockquote>
By who? Everybody? Everybody is prejudice? I can tell you right off that at my work, the best man and the hardest worker always moves up the ladder first. We're the same in the fact that we're all of equal intelligence and ability. I just don't see the same level of conspiracy that the Jessy Jackson's and Al Sharpton's of the world preach every day. Does racism exist? Of course it does... but certainly not on a scale that would require a different kind of unfair discrimination-- something as blatantly off-base as affirmative action. Best man for the job is something I will always preach, and it certainly isn't fair to give somebody a job or a rank simply because they're skin is black, OR white for that matter.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Therefore, most blacks are stuck working low-end jobs, living in low-income housing. And it's not necessarily their fault. When you live in a slum, you are surrounded by crime in the forms of thieves, gangs, and it's difficult to even walk home without having to follow many unwritten rules of how to walk home: what to look at, how to walk, what you can wear, etc to avoid being victimized. Basically there is no choice but to become a criminal yourself to survive.

<hr></blockquote>
Right, but if it's a problem with environment and location then it's not racial, and we should be treating it like that. Let's also make it clear that your use of the words "no choice" totally makes people who choose crime unaccountable for their actions. You know, white people live in "slums" also... but in this country a man can rise out of that with determination and legitimate work. The problems you're mentioning have nothing to do with race. Blacks certainly weren't the only people discriminated against in this country, "Irish Catholics Need Not Apply" rings a bell in my ancestry.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The only people the black culture can blame for lack of professional success is themselves. Sagging pants, rap music, heavy slang, and basically "keeping it gutta" may fly in the hood, but will get you nowhere in the marketplace. Therefore, most are stuck living a life of crime as a risky alternative to make ends meet. The only thing a black man can do to break free of this system is dress himself nice and educate himself well. The problem is that most won't do this, because of the heavy urban influence around him. If all your friends are gangstas, you sure will have a difficult time studying to be a lawyer. Escaping this system could result in your being a "sellout," and shunned from your neighborhood, where returning could get you beaten.

<hr></blockquote>
Again, purely having to do with where any person grows up. However, these are very good points. The problem, is that there's a strong number of people of other races that do all of those things-- the sagging pants, the rap music, slang... these are hardly focused solely on a black culture. (And I don't use the word "African America", because not one black person I know promotes the politically correct term.)

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

As for racism, some whites are racist against urban lifestyles because I'd bet they are threatened by it. I've found that it's really quite harmless once you get to know it. Either that, or they refuse to let go of old pre-civil war traditions. Hey, you redneck, you can put that rebel flag down. We lost that war YEARS ago. Most usually reply with "This flag isn't about slavery, it's about Southern heritage." One of my black friends went around waving a rebel flag saying, "Oh yeah? Well I'm proud to be from Louisiana too! Guess I'll wave this as I please as well!" The rednecks were bewildered; I laughed my ass off in delight.

<hr></blockquote>
Nobody should be waving that God-forsaken flag around, you may as well fly a swastika to promote "German heritage". Second, I understand that there's a culture-- but I don't see the threat. Also, there can't be a huge percentage of people still caught up in the confederacy.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Black racism against whites is usually caused by the ignorance by the white people. If everywhere a black guy goes, white people say, "Yo, what up, G-dog?" he will begin to dislike whites and their overwhelming ignorance of black culture.

<hr></blockquote>
Black racism against whites is equally as ignorant and is perpetuated by the comedic media and a mindset that makes people believe they're victims. I got into a political conversation with a girl once about President Bush, and she actually said, "Hey, I'm black, where's mine". Things like affirmative action make the problem worse, because they force people to believe they are owed something. Who's going to work hard if they're told from birth that the world owes them a living?
In conclusion I'd like you to help me figure out a solution that ISN'T affirmative action, because I think we can agree on the fact that something like that could only create more racism.

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[Danoz]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I've rarely seen this country's racial problem expressed so eloquently. I totally agree.

<hr></blockquote>
All he did was lay out the problem and express the argument, "black people are purely products of their environment" making accountability towards the individual totally lost. In the end the argument has nothing to do with race, but with the lower class.


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[SpaceTiger]

> All he did was lay out the problem and express the argument,
> "black people are purely products of their environment"
> making accountability towards the individual totally lost.

At what point did he say that people weren't accountable for their actions?


> In the end the argument has nothing to do with race, but
> with the lower class.

I disagree, and I thought he addressed that very well. The argument is about both race and class.

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[Danoz]

> At what point did he say that people weren't accountable for
> their actions?

"Basically there is no choice but to become a criminal yourself to survive." -- People always have a choice whether or not to do immoral things. Having "no choice" in a situation strips accountablity.

"Black racism against whites is usually caused by the ignorance by the white people." White people are racist because they're either afraid or stupid. Black people are racist because of white people.

Now, he did say-- "The only people the black culture can blame for lack of professional success is themselves." but he continued with; "Therefore, most are stuck living a life of crime as a risky alternative to make ends meet." Most are "stuck", once again alluding to a lack of choice, no accountability. Sure, finding and keeping a job is harder than selling drugs... that doesn't mean there's no choice.

I have a friend in college who says he's tempted to make money quick and easily as opposed to slaving over a stove at a local diner... but he doesn't do it... and he certainly isn't forced to do anything.



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[juggaleaux]

> In the end the argument has nothing to do with race, but with the lower class.

No. I said "black people" right out. I specifically designated the problems that a black youth would have growing up in a bad environment, and how he could try to break free from such stereotypes and be successful. I was showing how the lives of the average black differ from the average white, and why even though we're all human, we are different. (For the record, I don't mean to imply that the average black person is a criminal. You know what I mean.)

> All he did was lay out the problem and express the argument
> "black people are purely products of their environment"

EXACTLY. That's exactly what counters your post that "all races are the same under the skin." We are not the same. And saying so isn't racist.

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[juggaleaux]

> Black people are racist because of white people.

<img src=smilies/laff.gif>

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