Immigration

[icenine0]

What do we do about it? There's no way we're deporting 11 million people -- and, even if we could, I don't think it'd be the best thing for our country.

The question to be answered:
Is extensive immigration a bad thing? And if so, why?

[JadussD]

> The question to be answered:
> Is extensive immigration a bad thing? And if so, why?

I think we have enough people in this country. It may not seem very crowded but that's because we have these things called farms which grow the food that we eat. Also, many immigrants are Roman Catholic and reproduce too much.
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[juggaleaux]

"Have you been to Mexico lately? There aren't even any Mexicans LEFT over there!"

- Carlos Mencia
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[pipes]

I say yes because its going to piss allot of people off. I am talking about the Mexicans. Fuck Americans. I am not on the Mexicans side but thats allot of people pissed. America is going to have to think of a way to get them back instead of just gathering them up and moving them. Then once they are gone we should just keep it like that. I know this is near imposable but its a big mess and rednecks of the south are not helping the situation at all....... HEY there you go! Get rid of rednecks and you get rid of jobs that are given to Mexicans!
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[Disch]

It doesn't make sense to have immigration laws if we're going to selectively enforce them (ie -- enforce them for everyone except Canada and Mexico -- the two places that need it the most) or even not enforce them at all. I'm not opposed to [legal] immigration at all, and after all, America is a melting pot and it's great to have people from all over come in and mix it up. But it's terrible how out of control the illegal problem is.

I've heard the spiel that "they only take the jobs nobody else wants to do". This is true to an extent -- but actually, that's a bad thing. Those jobs need to get done -- and if nobody's willing to do them, guess what happens? The wages for those jobs go up, until people are willing to do them. By grabbing those jobs up at crap wages (often lower than min. wage), the gap between lower and middle class just grows larger.

Obviously the first step to solve this problem is to get border security tighted... like seriously.

I don't think the next step would be to go on a mass deporting spree. Rather, I think we should go after employers of illegal immigrants. Make sure at least minimum wage is being payed for everyone employed. Make sure people aren't being payed under the table. If they are skimming on wages or hiding employees from the books -- possibly even attach a hefty fine to slap them in the face -- or even shut them down and put them in jail if the violations are horrible enough (though I'm talking only in extreme cases here). If the fines or upped wages put the employer in a jam or even out of business -- tough fucking break. They knew they were breaking the law, but they tried to skim it in expense for cheaper labor -- fuck that.... that's extortion in my book.

Make sure kids are in school and not working. Make sure everyone already here applies for citizenship. If they don't get it after X period, then deport them. It'll have to come to that at some point for some people, but hopefully most of them will become part of the populous.

This may sound odd -- but the goal of the above two paragraphs is to make sure that illegals are being treated as they would be if they were legal citizens. The main problem caused by illegal immigration is it allows people to get pulled into the rut of being a 'sub-citizen', which throws whole regions into states of poverty ... that's what we want to avoid.

And for Christ's sake. START FUCKING TEACHING SPANISH IN PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. Kids pick up language like *snap* that. When you're older is a lot harder. They should be teaching Spanish RIGHT AWAY.... in preschool, K4, etc... rather than waiting until 7th or 8th grade (which was when I think I had my first Spanish class -- and by then it was waaaaaaay too late for me). Like it or not the country is becoming bilingual -- if it isn't already... but that's not a bad thing. It's only a bad thing if we keep everyone segregated by the language barrier.

Of course all of this (except that last thing) only works if the borders really get clamped down. More and more illegals come in all the time... just furthering the problem. Deporting them or making them all felons doesn't solve anything... it's just a temporary fix for one of the symptoms without even addressing the real problem at all (border security). Politicians have a knack for coming up with stupid ideas like that which sound tough for the news but don't really do anything of worth.

My 2 cents
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[Dark Knight Kain]

You pretty much summed up my feelings, the only thing I disagree with is the language issue. English has been the primary language of this country since it was founded, anyone who immigrates should learn enough English to communicate, and for the most part they do. Thier children should learn English in gradeschool, the parents should encourage them (I went to school with a lot of kids who were not allowed to use English at home, even ones whose parents spoke it), and they can continue speaking Spanish as part of their heritage.
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[Disch]

> English has been the primary language of this country since it was founded,
> anyone who immigrates should learn enough English to communicate,

I don't disagree that immigrants should try and learn English -- but equal effort should be made by natives to try and learn Spanish.

Yeah yeah "English was here first blah blah blah we shouldn't have to learn blah blah blah". But the fact of the matter is... realistically speaking, a large portion of the population speaks Spanish... and a considerable portion speaks only Spanish. The way I see it, anyone who is bilingual in this country has a considerable advantage in society (or at least a very valuable skill) regardless of whether they're of Mexican descent or not.

The question here is not "Why should we have to learn Spanish"... the question is "Why shouldn't we be learning Spanish". It's nothing but an advantage for everyone. Those who can speak both will be able to communicate with everyone... and those who can only speak one have much better odds when the majority of the population speaks both. It's win-win.

I find the fear of the US becoming a bilingual country absurd. If anything it's something we should encourage and welcome. It would do nothing but benefit society and broaden domestic, as well as international communication and culture.
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[Dark Knight Kain]

> If anything it's something we should encourage and welcome.

Of course, I just don't think it should be required in schools which are already underfunded or required, if someone wants to take a different language they should be able to. When they introduced required Spanish classes into the public schools around here they actually cut the other foreign language classes, I hear they finally reintroduced French a few years ago, but there's no word of German coming back.
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[Disch]

> Of course, I just don't think it should be required in
> schools which are already underfunded

Well funding could be an issue I guess. That seems like a bullshit excuse though.

"We don't have the money needed to teach our citizens how to communicate with each other"

> if someone wants to take a different language they should be
> able to. When they introduced required Spanish classes into
> the public schools around here they actually cut the other
> foreign language classes, I hear they finally reintroduced
> French a few years ago, but there's no word of German coming back.

While that is unfortunate -- I really think we should get our priorities straight. Ideally every school would teach every language -- but since that's an impossibility, we have to pick and choose which languages should be taught. I think it's pretty obvious that Spanish is more important than French or German in this country. Not that French and German are useless to learn... but come on.

If a school in the US could only teach 1 foreign language and no others... then it should be Spanish. I should hope you'd feel the same way... or at least see the logic behind it.


Besides -- I'm not talking about Spanish courses like in Junior High and High School. I'm talking about putting it in Elementary School and Preschool. Kids that young don't really have the ability to weigh the pros and cons of learning X language vs. Y.
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[Dark Knight Kain]

> Well funding could be an issue I guess. That seems like a
> bullshit excuse though.

Isn't that a problem with the public school system as a whole though? The whole thing needs an overhault, and it doesn't look like it's going to happen any time soon. More emphasis should be put on giving kids an education that is actually going to help them later in life, more career training and real-world skills in highschool.

As for Spanish, maybe I'm just bitter, I failed the class. Easy language my ass, I took French two years earlier and aced it, can't remember hardly any of either now though.
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[Disch]

> More emphasis should be put on giving kids an education that is
> actually going to help them later in life,

That's my point. I'd put speaking Spanish among one of the most important skills to have. Like I say... being bilingual gives people a great advantage both in causal life and in the business world.

> As for Spanish, maybe I'm just bitter, I failed the class.

That's another one of my points. You took it too late. This stuff should be given to children early early early early on... when they absorb this stuff. It's really, really, REALLY hard for most older people to learn new languages. By Junior High it's already way too late. They have to give that shit to you sooner or you don't have a chance.
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[juggaleaux]

http://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/attachment.php?Cat=&Board=backroom&Post=284661

C:Serverxampphtdocszopharoldwwwthreadsattachmentsl etstakehisjob.png

[Danoz]

> The question to be answered:
> Is extensive immigration a bad thing? And if so, why?

Not so sure that's the question to be answered. The problem is that America is bipolar on the issue, and it isn't even a partisan issue (the topic tends to be far more geographic and ethnic than based on political party). On one hand, we talk about strict policies and, of course more recently, filing illegal immigrants with the worst of criminals. On the other hand, our border patrol is often laxed and we have no problem giving these workers legal drivers licenses and working visas.

First of all, I will never blame the starving father who crosses the border looking for opportunity for his family, but we have to be fair. Is it right to give immigrants in the country legal status, and reward their method with citizenship when there are thousands of people abroad awaiting entry through legal channels? That's a big "fuck you" to the people doing this the right way, and we go from trying to stop immigration to discouraging legal routes to citizenship! Lastly, it isn't ethical to give working visas to people simply because they'll do menial jobs for pay well below the minimum wage, simply because they aren't American. Seems to promote a tension of arrogance and perceived ethnic superiority if you ask me.
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[Danoz]

It's simply not practical to expect Americans to learn working Spanish. Growing up in Phoenix it was far more relevant, but what would Spanish do for me up in northeast Ohio? Jack. I get more practical use out of Japanese. This isn't about sensitivity to culture or people or any of that, and those things are important. It's about simple logic, and fairness to the Spanish-born immigrants who can and will not possibly thrive in this society without a fluency in the English language. It is not wrong for a country to assume a national language, quite the opposite in many situations-- and America, ultimately, is an English speaking country.

(BTW, I'm not assuming you agree or disagree with this, only throwing my view into the middle here :))
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[Mr. Saturn]

> If a school in the US could only teach 1 foreign language
> and no others... then it should be Spanish. I should hope
> you'd feel the same way... or at least see the logic behind
> it.

I disagree with this. By the third generation Mexican immigrant descendents speak English first and foremost. If we would hypothetically only teach a single language, it should be Mandarin, not Spanish.
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[CEpeep]

> I disagree with this. By the third generation Mexican
> immigrant descendents speak English first and foremost. If
> we would hypothetically only teach a single language, it
> should be Mandarin, not Spanish.

I'm not sure that would go over too well. China is poised to be the next major world superpower, potentially creating conflict and tension as power shifts. Your suggestion seems akin to having suggested students learn Russian in schools in the years shortly prior to the cold war.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you. China is the largest (in terms of population) country on the planet and if we want to maintain healthy relationships with them, it would help to speak their language. I just don't think it would go over too well with the government or with a bunch of rednecks who don't want their kids "talking some gook language".
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[Mr. Saturn]

> I just don't think it
> would go over too well with the government or with a bunch
> of rednecks who don't want their kids "talking some gook
> language".

The same sort of folk who would say things like that probably aren't going to want them teaching Spanish either, though.
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[Danoz]

How boring. Am I not controversial anymore? <img src=smilies/cry.gif>
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[Dark Knight Kain]

> How boring. Am I not controversial anymore?

I think everyone agrees with you, so no, it appears you're not.
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[MasterHD]

> ... it's just a temporary fix for one of the
> symptoms without even addressing the real problem at all
> (border security).

I think the real issue here is Mexico's economy. If we could somehow get more jobs available in Mexico, then the Mexicans won't risk their lives walking through the desert to come to the US!
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[MegaManJuno]

Hmm...

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

That's my point. I'd put speaking Spanish among one of the most important skills to have. Like I say... being bilingual gives people a great advantage both in causal life and in the business world.

<hr></blockquote>

I call bullshit. This is totally dependent upon where you are and what you do in life. I took 3 years of Spanish, and made 6th and 7th places in the National Spanish Exam each year for my state. How many times have I conversed with someone in Spanish outside of school? NONE. Not once in 12 years since I graduated. Being that it's been this long since I've had a need to use it at all, I can still pick up some words and phrases, but I've forgotten a LOT of it overall.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

That's another one of my points. You took it too late. This stuff should be given to children early early early early on... when they absorb this stuff. It's really, really, REALLY hard for most older people to learn new languages. By Junior High it's already way too late. They have to give that shit to you sooner or you don't have a chance.

<hr></blockquote>

Again, bullshit... to an extent. Yes, there's definite evidence that it's easier to pick up at younger years, but we're talking about Spanish here... one of the easiest languages to learn. Plus, different people will handle learing a new language differently. I took those 3 years of Spanish my 10th, 11th, and 12th grade years (since my junior high only offered French).

If you're not learning it, don't cop out that "oh, I'm too old to learn it because my local school system sucks and only offers it later in my education path". There's probably other valid reasons why you didn't pick it up. Quality of the teacher(s), personal interest in the class (or lack thereof), etc.

Most of the people in my Spanish classes that did poorly were too busy goofing off, doing homework for other classes, or something else other than giving their full attention to the class and actually trying to make an effort.

Sure, there were some people who actually tried and still had trouble, but then a good deal of those people had enough problems with their native language too... (of course this became less of a problem in Spanish II and III classes as these people were filtered out of the higher level classes).

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