Revolution will have Genesis and TG-16 games

[SamIAm]

http://revolution.ign.com/articles/697/697922p1.html

I'm very excited about what this can do for Nintendo. Access to the 16-bit generation of games is, quite simply, what I want above all, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Nintendo is without a doubt the company I am rooting for these days. If the emulated games are priced reasonably, they can count me in.

On the other hand, this does create a bit of a moral dilemma for me. I play 16-bit ROMs all the time, and I don't consider it unethical because the games I play are no longer for sale by the companies that own them. But with this, I may have to delete my little collection or face being a hypocrite.
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[coolie]

Be a hypocrite. They don't make new 16-bit systems anymore, and those systems are not the bread and butter of those old companies.

And besides. Money doesn't grow on trees.
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[Disch]

> If the emulated games are priced reasonably, they can count me in.

A private individual paying for emulation is something I will never understand. Regardless of the context.

It's like paying for filesharing programs like Napster. What's the point?

[juggaleaux]

> A private individual paying for emulation is something I
> will never understand. Regardless of the context.
>
> It's like paying for filesharing programs like Napster.
> What's the point?

Agreed. I always wondered how those 99 cent music download programs were so successful. You're already on the internet; just download the shit yourself for free! Why do people pay? To free themselves of the guilt? Please.
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[Ugly Joe]

Hmm...the soft-modded xbox in my apartment can do the same thing <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

How sad is it that the big news for the Revolution is that it can play old games? Sure it's a very keen feature and all, but this is nothing we haven't been doing with emulation for years now.
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[Slicer S. V.]

> How sad is it that the big news for the Revolution is that
> it can play old games? Sure it's a very keen feature and
> all, but this is nothing we haven't been doing with
> emulation for years now.

the big news is that it's actually fully supported by the companies involved, and therefore, full access to the REAL specs. you'll be able to emulate with an accuracy and efficiency never seen before. plus, it's truly legal, instead of just ethically excusable.
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[Slicer S. V.]

> A private individual paying for emulation is something I
> will never understand. Regardless of the context.

i'll be paying for the official support of the companies involved, therefore, better quality, better efficiency, better accuracy, and in the off chance something is screwed up, the possibility of a quick response.

> It's like paying for filesharing programs like Napster.
> What's the point?

this i agree, napster doesn't provide better quality or anything, in fact, you can get lossless if you search long enough, for free.
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[Ugly Joe]

> ethically excusable.

That's a fine phrase for "illegal" <img src=smilies/laff.gif>
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[Slicer S. V.]

> That's a fine phrase for "illegal"

*preens* yes, i know i'm good at coining fine phrases, i am a writer, you know ;)
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[Diskeater]

The responses in this thread surprise me.

Nintendo's 'virtual console' idea is a great one, and the announcement that Genesis games will be available has completely sold me on the Revolution. I plan on buying a few games on each system (assuming the price is right of course).

Why am I doing this, when I have complete romsets for all the classic systems? I expect the emulation to be perfect in every single aspect. I've always said that if a company offered a 'legal' way of emulating their old games, I would support it. And I think this is a fantastic idea and I want to show my support by buying a few games (and the system itself, of course).

Why buy anything when you can download it from the net?
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[The 9th Sage]

> http://revolution.ign.com/articles/697/697922p1.html

Personally, I'll probably by some. Why? I don't mind supporting the companies. If I have a legal way of getting these old games (provided the price isn't way too much) I'll go for it. I'll probably still keep whatever ROMs I have now, but my favorite games I'll definitely get on the Revolution.
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[Dark Knight Kain]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Personally, I'll probably by some. Why? I don't mind supporting the companies. If I have a legal way of getting these old games (provided the price isn't way too much) I'll go for it. I'll probably still keep whatever ROMs I have now, but my favorite games I'll definitely get on the Revolution.

<hr></blockquote>

Same here, I wouldn't mind packing away some of my old consoles if the emulation is decent and the game selection is large. I just hope to rumors of an SNES-style controller are true, if not I guess I'll be using the one I bought for my Game Boy Player.
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[pipes]

I would keep the NES out for the reason that you can't emulate that great twitchy pixle effect that it did.
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[Disch]

> the big news is that it's actually fully supported by the
> companies involved, and therefore, full access to the REAL
> specs. you'll be able to emulate with an accuracy and
> efficiency never seen before.

Bullshit. There's no fucking way any official NES emulator by Nintendo will ever reach the accuracy and detail of modern NES emus such as Nintendulator. There are quirks and bugs to the system emulated that probably not even the system designers know exist.

Of course NES emulation is a bit ahead of the rest. But I wouldn't underestimate the power of individual hackers/RE workers discovering system operations on their own without relying completely on "official" specs. Plus -- often times the official specs are available and circulating anyway, so freeware emu developers already have access to them.
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[Disch]

> i'll be paying for the official support of the companies involved,

so in short... you're paying for a brand name

> therefore, better quality,

NEStopia

> better efficiency,

Nester, NEStopia (but really -- why would speed matter on a console anyway? As long as you get 100%, who cares how efficient it is?)

> better accuracy,

Nintendulator, NEStopia

> and in the off chance something is screwed
> up, the possibility of a quick response.

For a while... Nintendulator was updated daily (sometimes several times a day) with minor fixes / improvements. Many/most emu authors which are still working on their emus are availble to contact for bug reports. What are the odds of you being able to directly e-mail, BBS, or chat with the developer of Nintendo's emulator?


When a name brand emu ever even approaches the status of the above emus... then I can certainly see the appeal to such an emu. However it still doesn't have enough appeal to actually PAY for the emu. I mean really... would you pay for NEStopia when VirtuaNES was freely available? Sure NEStopia is better, but VirtuaNES is damn good and gets the job done.

But that doesn't matter -- because as I've said -- there's not a snowball's chance in hell of these "official" emus being able to compete.
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[Goku]

Err,

I dont know how they are emulating these things, but it is feasible to cheaply put in a chip that contains the hardware of both the Genesis and TG16. Both of these systems are very old.
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[Diskeater]

> But that doesn't matter -- because as I've said -- there's
> not a snowball's chance in hell of these "official" emus
> being able to compete.

A NES emulator from Nintendo isn't going to be able to compete with NES emulators from third parties? What about SNES, or n64 emulation?

I don't see your logic.

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[soniczip]

Maybe they'll pay the NEStopia people for their emulators, and shit like that.
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[Disch]

> I dont know how they are emulating these things, but it is
> feasible to cheaply put in a chip that contains the hardware
> of both the Genesis and TG16. Both of these systems are
> very old.

I'm unsure how it's going to work, too. I very much doubt they're going to put the hardware for each system inside the Revolution. Doing it through software just makes so much more sense (not to mention it would be much, much cheaper). Plus I don't even know if it would be possible to do it all through hardware for cartridge systems -- since the cartridges themselves often require emulation (special SNES chips, NES mappers, etc)

If they DO go with hardware -- they'll probably not use the original NES (or whatever system) hardware -- but will probably go with a more modernized clone. Essentially making it no more accurate than the many existing pirate clones (NES on a chip?)
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[Disch]

> A NES emulator from Nintendo isn't going to be able to
> compete with NES emulators from third parties?

Not a chance.

> What about SNES, or n64 emulation?

Current N64 emulation is pretty lame, so that's up for grabs. I could see Nintendo making a much better emulator than anything currently existing.

However bsnes is making strides in SNES emulation and may even initiate a new generation of SNES emulators.


I'm not really up with other system's emulation. But I'm under the impression that Genesis emulation is pretty decent (Kega Fusion gets high praise from many) -- and I hear great things about Magic Engine for TG-16.

> I don't see your logic.

I honestly don't see Slicer's. What motivation would Nintendo have to make an accurate emulator? Their only interest would be to get the games they sell running. Meanwhile Kevtris, Quietust, blargg, and others are constantly uncovering many nit-picky details about the system.

Emulation is more of a passion than a business. When you're talking about accuracy, it doesn't make sense from a business standpoint to worry about the anal details... just as long as it works and will sell.

I mean seriously -- look how long it's taking all these emus to be developed. NEStopia has been around for years and it's still being updated. You really expect Nintendo to instantly create the perfect emulator their first go? Will there even be updates after the initial release?

It doesn't make any sense.
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[coolie]

as far as n64 goes, i think they already have an emulator for PPC. remember the freebie zelda disc that came with pre-ordered Wind Wakers? i think OoT was emulated to some degree
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[CEpeep]

> as far as n64 goes, i think they already have an emulator
> for PPC. remember the freebie zelda disc that came with
> pre-ordered Wind Wakers? i think OoT was emulated to some
> degree
>

It was fully emulated. I have the hacked emulator in my GC files right now. I've used it to play Mario 64 and stuff.
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[SamIAm]

> It's like paying for filesharing programs like Napster.
> What's the point?
>

Assuming that the quality of the emulation is competent, and personally I expect everything from the beginning short of video filters and higher sound sampling, then I think it is very reasonable. The people who created these games want anybody who plays them to pay for them. Since the games are their creation, it is seen as justifiable for them to impose this condition, except that they can't when there are things like ROMs floating around. So, does the creator of something deserve to be paid even when the market no longer necessitates that consumers do so?

People are probably sick of this question, but for those of us here in the heart of the so-called emulation community, it takes on a new relevance when the possibility of paying for so much game software comes back into existence. I don't have the answer, and I don't think anyone is going to give that answer in a little post on this forum (although I encourage any efforts!). I can only merely say that at very least, paying for an emulation service probably isn't ethically wrong. Some may risk foolishly throwing their money away by doing this, but others who don't may risk unjustice upon their fellow man.

Seriously, however, I recognise that with games this old that have already earned their creators their "bread and butter", any wrong we risk is likely negligable enough that we can probably just sit back and enjoy ourselves anyway. I still ask this question, though. After all, it is good to know exactly what it is that one is doing.
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[The 9th Sage]

> I mean seriously -- look how long it's taking all these emus
> to be developed. NEStopia has been around for years and
> it's still being updated. You really expect Nintendo to
> instantly create the perfect emulator their first go? Will
> there even be updates after the initial release?

Why do you assume they have been working on these emulators for only a little while? They've likely been working on them for awhile...starting with the NES and N64 emulators for the Gamecube. Also, I think some Nintendo systems have had official emulators for developers (which are likely pretty accurate)...like the Nintendo DS. Not sure about the other systems though, I can't remember.
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[Ugly Joe]

> People are probably sick of this question, but for those of
> us here in the heart of the so-called emulation community,
> it takes on a new relevance when the possibility of paying
> for so much game software comes back into existence.

I don't see how this can be the case. Legally, we were never right to begin with. All we're doing is breaking an unenforced law. Still, roms, generally speaking, are illegal and are illegal for a reason. I realize that the ethics involved are not the same as the legal issues involved, but there is likely some correlation -- they either agree or they don't.

So what is it that the Revolution is really changing? Nintendo will be legally selling you roms, and so they will have a reason to stop you from distributing roms freely. All that can possibly happen is that this unenforced law we love to ignore may finally start to be enforced.

What does this do for our ethics?

On the one side of the coin, we stick to our ethics, and we keep downloading and using roms anyway. The risk of being taken to court is higher, but we don't really care because we don't feel any guilt in doing it, right?.

On the other side of the coin, we stop using roms because we feel it is truely wrong to steal from Nintendo. Fat chance of that being the case. If we cared about stealing from Nintendo, we wouldn't have been using roms in the first place.

The truth is, if the Revolution makes us stop using roms, it will be only because of fear of legal troubles -- and that's not ethics at all.
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[SamIAm]

> On the other side of the coin, we stop using roms because we
> feel it is truely wrong to steal from Nintendo. Fat chance
> of that being the case. If we cared about stealing from
> Nintendo, we wouldn't have been using roms in the first
> place.

Why is this necessarily the case? I can name 3 real-life friends off the top of my head who a) buy all their games for current-gen systems even though they are savvy enough to get them for free, and b) play SNES and Genesis ROMs. A lot of people are honest and really do care, and after a lot of thought have concluded that downloading a ROM image of a game that is completely out of print is harmless. I, for one, honestly believed that 80% of the games on the SNES would just fade into history, while only the popular games would ever see re-release. I know I don't deserve to play these old games for free, but if nobody else is wronged by my doing so, what's the problem? Well, now the problem is that Nintendo may very well put nearly every SNES game back up for sale, and you know what that implies.

> The truth is, if the Revolution makes us stop using roms, it
> will be only because of fear of legal troubles -- and that's
> not ethics at all.
>

I shamefully admit that I may turn out to be a complete hypocrite in the end, but right now, I'm thinking that if Nintendo offers a good service, I'm going to abandon my current emulation habits and switch to the Revolution - and it's not because I'm scared of the law. I certainly don't expect that every ROM user is going to trash their ROM sets when Nintendo gets going (although I know some major ROM sites are freaking out right now), but I do think that a lot of people who know perfectly well how to get the games for free are going to go with the Revolution simply because it's the right thing to do.
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[Ugly Joe]

> A lot
> of people are honest and really do care, and after a lot of
> thought have concluded that downloading a ROM image of a
> game that is completely out of print is harmless.

Not entirely harmless. When Nintendo starts selling roms to us, they will have to face the massive archives of roms that are already very easily attainable on the internet. By following your logic, you and many others (and, let's be honest here, this includes myself) have made Nintendo's job a lot harder and likely have lowered their possible sales by distributing roms that we had no right to distribute.

It's only harmless if everyone stops distributing the roms for free once Nintendo starts selling them -- and that simply will not happen. Sure, there will be some people who "stop all the downloadin'", but I really doubt it'll be a significant amount.

> I shamefully admit that I may turn out to be a complete
> hypocrite in the end, but right now, I'm thinking that if
> Nintendo offers a good service, I'm going to abandon my
> current emulation habits and switch to the Revolution - and
> it's not because I'm scared of the law.

While I think that that attitude puts you into a scarce minority, I do apoligize for the generalization.
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[Diskeater]

I agree with 100% of your post. Very well put, sir!
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[Dark Knight Kain]

> I agree with 100% of your post. Very well put, sir!

Same here, I couldn't have put it better myself.
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[Danoz]

>The truth is, if the Revolution makes us stop using roms, it
> will be only because of fear of legal troubles -- and that's
> not ethics at all.

Hehe, what an interesting post. I can't say my conscience has ever squirmmed over the idea of downloading and playing obscure and obsolete games (nor do I get upset over downloading N64 ROMs I already own, or have paid for in the past, for the luxery of playing them on my computer). These acts are illegal, but I think ultimately we're all pretty comfortable with emulation because most of us aren't really stealing anything. Most of us owned the old Nintendo games we play today, and if we didn't own them-- they're so obscure you might find a shitty copy in a game trade store that you have to blow in everytime you start the system. It's another fallacy to assume that the emulation gamer has no respect for intellectual property rights, when I can assure you the "emulation gamer" probably shells out more money into the video game industry than anybody.

So, now we're facing the issue of Nintendo selling ROMs. Interesting idea, except, Nintendo will likely be selling the most popular games (either individually or in little game packs) for 15-30 bucks. We already own these ROMS, and most of us have already owned these games). I am a firm supporter of intellectual property. I purchase my own applications with collegiate discounts and buy new gaming systems and games occationally, I like to purchase books and music when I like the authors, but Nintendo trying to make money of games that have long been filed into gaming history is decidedly the unethical party here. Nintendo is bullshitting when they talk about "protecting the artists" and all that noise, this is about selling something at a ridiculous price to a new generation because they know most people haven't touched into the emulation world yet, and they're gullible enought to clear out their bank accounts for dancing pixels.
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[Diskeater]

Nintendo selling something they own for a price they decide is considered unethical? How?

It is a little silly for Nintendo to keep reselling the same old games over and over...but I own Z:LttP for SNES. I bought it for GBA as well. And I plan on buying it for Rev.

The key here is that Nintendo needs to keep the price right. I really doubt they are going to charge $10-$20 for a single SNES game. I also doubt they are going to force people to spend that much on a bundle of predetermined games (for example, selling four 'throwaway' games and one blockbuster game for $20).

They have also said that some games will have improved graphics and extra features...like online support. Online Super Mario Kart via the Rev? Sign me up.
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[Diskeater]

I would also like to make the same point that I made in one of the other threads about the Revoluion. We should really focus on what we 'know' about the system as opposed to what we 'think' Nintendo is going to do.

We know that Nintendo will have a Virtual Console which will allow the user to download games from the NES all the way up to the N64. You can also download select Genesis and TG-16 games. They have also said that their V.C. can be used to download new games (think XBLA), which is a fantastic idea.

We do NOT know how much the games will be or how users will be able to play them (meaning: pay-per-download, a rental service, etc?). Honestly, I want to wait until E3 when Nintendo will reveal all of that information. I don't want to spend $30 for NES Zelda but I'm not going to attack Nintendo for it yet because I don't know how much they are actually going to charge.
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[Disch]

> I own Z:LttP for SNES. I
> bought it for GBA as well. And I plan on buying it for Rev.

I'll never understand this mentality. /wwwthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif Why buy a game you already own?

I guess the GBA version is portable, so I can see buying that despite having the SNES version. That makes some sense. But the Rev version?
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[Diskeater]

> I'll never understand this mentality. Why buy a game you
> already own?
> I guess the GBA version is portable, so I can see buying
> that despite having the SNES version. That makes some
> sense. But the Rev version?

Plus, the GBA had Four Swords and that was amazing amount of fun, but I see your point.

I don't expect the games to be expensive at all since Nintendo really doesn't have to 'do anything' to release them (no instruction manual, packaging, retail space...that sort of thing). I wouldn't spend a lot of money on it and I doubt that Nintendo will release Zelda by itself. I simply have no idea how Nintendo is going to sell their old games but if the price is right and it includes multiplayer, I'm there.

I also love Zelda and I have no clue where my SNES or GBA is anymore.
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[Reaper man]

> Most of us owned the old Nintendo games we play today

*looks at NES and SNES rom sets* um... um... um...
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[Ugly Joe]

> These
> acts are illegal, but I think ultimately we're all pretty
> comfortable with emulation because most of us aren't really
> stealing anything.

Legally wrong, but ethically right. I think we agree here <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

> but Nintendo trying to make
> money of games that have long been filed into gaming history
> is decidedly the unethical party here.

Hold on, now. What would be an ethical stand for Nintendo, then? Legally attain the rights to these games and then not sell them? Never touch them at all and not sell them? Give them all away for free?

I can perhaps see it being unfair if someone who has never heard of emulation starts to buy a bunch of games from the Revolution's VC, not knowing that they can get them for free. But I can't help but think that if this person starts paying for games that they once owned, they might start to get pissed off about it and come to the conclusion that they should be able to play these games for free. So what then? They stop buying the games. No one's twisting their arm, afterall.

I wonder, even, what would happen if this person found out about the emulation scene afterwards. All these games that they had to pay for can now be downloaded for free. How much more like piracy would emulation seem to them?
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[Fla Flash]

Because the games are still more fun to play on your tv through your game system.
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[Disch]

> Because the games are still more fun to play on your tv
> through your game system.

Only if you're insane.

Fuzzy picture, no fastforward, no savestates, having to hassle with hardware trouble, limited savegames.

Emulators on PC are superior when it comes to fun. Not to mention the perks of ROM hacks, translations, and games which would otherwise be unavailable on the original console.
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[Diskeater]

> > Because the games are still more fun to play on your tv
> > through your game system.
>
> Only if you're insane.

I disagree completely. Games are way better when they are played on the TV.
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[Disch]

> I disagree completely. Games are way better when they are
> played on the TV.

For multiplayer -- sure.

For 1 player? I just don't see the appeal. I mean really, what advantage is there? I already listed several downsides.
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[Cornellius]

What's the point of playing a game if you fast-foward ? As for the save-states, it makes people lazy. Instead of trying to get better, they just don't care if they die because they have a saved state right before the boss. Where's the thrill ? If you know that you won't die and beat the game in no time, where's the fun ? Hahaha and hardware trouble ? What trouble ? Insert cartridge, push the on button... pretty much it. On PC, you constantly have to check your specs if you want accurate like Nestopia or Bsnes. I always try to beat game on the tv first, because by playing it via an emu, IMO, it's not the real experience it was meant to be.
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[Dark Knight Kain]

> For 1 player? I just don't see the appeal. I mean really,
> what advantage is there? I already listed several
> downsides.

It's hard to describe, they're just better. I'd rather play my old games on the actual console than emulate them. That being said, the Revolution will also be emulating them, I'll have to wait and see if they're as good as playing on the real thing or not.

Edit: I should also mention I have a hard time actually finishing games when I'm playing on an emulator, too damn many distractions on my computer.
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</center></P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Dark Knight Kain on 03/31/06 09:49 PM.</FONT></P>

[Disch]

> What's the point of playing a game if you fast-foward ?

To skip over the boring parts that aren't fun?

I don't like having to sit through the 45 second intro to Battletoads every time I start the game. Fastforward makes it great.

And christ... FF1 without fastforward? I don't know how I could ever stand it. Talk about bore-fest.

> As for the save-states, it makes people lazy. Instead of trying
> to get better, they just don't care if they die because they
> have a saved state right before the boss. Where's the thrill?

I hate when people think the only merit to savestates is abuse.

Just because you can save the game anywhere you want doesn't mean it's only a device for cheating. Haven't you ever been interrupted in the middle of a game? Couldn't get to that save point in time and had to turn off your game so that the next time you played you had to redo everything you just did? It sucks doesn't it. That problem is completely solved with savestates.

Just because you may own a Gameshark or Gamegenie doesn't mean you always use it. Just because you have the option to cheat with savestates doesn't mean you will.

> Hahaha and hardware trouble ? What
> trouble ? Insert cartridge, push the on button... pretty
> much it.

You must be too young to remember the days of early revision toaster-box NES's and worn out cartridges.

I remember spending a good 5 minutes trying to get my Bionic Commando cart working back in the day. No exaggeration. Sometimes I couldn't even get it to work and had to give up.

> On PC, you constantly have to check your specs if
> you want accurate like Nestopia or Bsnes.

I don't want to downplay the importance of emulator accuracy. In fact I'm one of its biggest supporters.

But the bottom line is if you can play the game in an emu it doesn't have to be 100% accurate. FCEU isn't the most accurate emu around, but it's fast enough to run with a myriad of enhancement options on even a low-end PC... and it can play 99% of games without any noticable inaccuracies.

> it's not the real experience it was meant to be.

That somehow means the intended experience is better? Please.

Old Beatles records were intended to be heard on shitty records... or even on a fucking piece of shit 8-track. Give me a CD any day. Sure it's not "what it was meant to be", but it's 1000x better.

Thank God for technological progress.
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[Disch]

> It's hard to describe, they're just better.

That pretty much seems to be everyone's argument

"No reason -- it just is"

Sorry if that doesn't sway me. You guys are all insane.
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[Cornellius]

> To skip over the boring parts that aren't fun?

I live with it. Like the Floating Island in Final Fantasy VI>

> And christ... FF1 without fastforward? I don't know how I
> could ever stand it. Talk about bore-fest.

I see it like watching a movie using fast-foward.

> I hate when people think the only merit to savestates is
> abuse.

I mean, it's fun to be on the nerves on a stage in MegaMan. It's part of the game :"I don't want to die, I don't want to die !"

> You must be too young to remember the days of early revision
> toaster-box NES's and worn out cartridges.

I'm 22. I love my Nes for nostalgic purposes.

> I remember spending a good 5 minutes trying to get my Bionic
> Commando cart working back in the day. No exaggeration.
> Sometimes I couldn't even get it to work and had to give up.

Never had real problems with my Nes. I dropped it once, but now I only have to put a pencil under the cartridge.

> That somehow means the intended experience is better?
> Please.

I want my emus to run close as possible as the real system. I don't use graphics engines very often. Like I said earlier, I love nostalgia.

> Old Beatles records were intended to be heard on shitty
> records... or even on a fucking piece of shit 8-track. Give
> me a CD any day. Sure it's not "what it was meant to be",
> but it's 1000x better.

I don't care for the music. Hell, I listen to FFs NSFs now and then. I have a fuckton of Phonos.

> Thank God for technological progress.

I do think that it's amazing to see what we're able to do now with technology, but I don't really care for the music. I listen to my The Wall phono more often then the CD version. It's a matter of taste, some like, others don't. Maybe it's why there's a lot of games remade for the newer systems, like the Super Marios on the GBA.
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[Disch]

> I live with it. Like the Floating Island in Final Fantasy VI

"live with it"? Games are meant to be enjoyed... not tolerated.

Being able to skip the parts you don't enjoy makes the game more enjoyable.

Besides... as with other points, this features is 100% OPTIONAL and it's existence does not detrement the value of the emulator in any way shape or form. It's merely something an emulator offers that a console does not.

> I see it like watching a movie using fast-foward.

Movies and Video Games serve two entirely seperate functions. Interactive entertainment has a completely different dynamic. But again -- optional

> I mean, it's fun to be on the nerves on a stage in MegaMan.
> It's part of the game :"I don't want to die, I don't want to
> die !"

I agree. The Rat Race stage in Battletoads still gets my heart pumping.

How do savestates take this aspect away? They don't in the least for me.

> I'm 22. I love my Nes for nostalgic purposes.

I guess that's the difference. You like the nostolgia, I like the games.

Emulators are better for playing the games, not for reliving the nostogia

> Never had real problems with my Nes. I dropped it once, but
> now I only have to put a pencil under the cartridge.

I think it's more of a cartridge problem than a system problem. I remember Bionic Commando and Marble Madness being exceedingly difficult to get running -- but Final Fantasy and Zelda 1 never failed.

*shrug*

Nevertheless -- this problem never occurs during emulation.

> I don't care for the music. Hell, I listen to FFs NSFs now
> and then.

But... but... NSFs are not how the music was meant to be heard!!!!!! It's like watching a movie without looking at the screen!!!!!

ZOMG HYPOCRITE!!!!

/wwwthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif
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[Diskeater]

You know what my biggest beef with SNES emulation? The games just sound...off. Maybe I'm not configuring the emulator properly or whatever, but the games just do not sound right.

When I load a game into an emulator, I want it to be as close as possible to playing the game on the actual console. End of story. If the game doesnt sound right, or the graphics are off, it takes away from my enjoyment.

On topic: Since I'll be paying for an emulated version of Zelda, I damn well expect it to look/sound/feel like I dragged out my SNES and plugged it into my TV.
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[hcs]

> Nevertheless -- this problem never occurs during emulation.

I considered adding this as a "feature" to my NES emulator, actually, a random chance of nothing but a blinking screen...
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[Ugly Joe]

> I considered adding this as a "feature" to my NES emulator,
> actually, a random chance of nothing but a blinking
> screen...

The thought had crossed my mind, too. Though I'd really like to see it done accurately, if that's even possible.
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[The 9th Sage]

> On topic: Since I'll be paying for an emulated version of
> Zelda, I damn well expect it to look/sound/feel like I
> dragged out my SNES and plugged it into my TV.

I still think Nintendo has a better chance of a fully accurate SNES emulator than anybody else. Sure, open source is GREAT, but SNES emulation is still not perfect. Who would know the ins and outs of the system better than the company that not only designed it, but made games for it for many years?

Of course, we'll see if that's the case, I just don't really get that 'these PC emulators are open source/worked on by people not of Nintendo therefore they are good and Nintendo official emulator is teh bad' argument.

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[The 9th Sage]

> The thought had crossed my mind, too. Though I'd really
> like to see it done accurately, if that's even possible.

Haha, that strange blinky green screen. That would be so hillariously unexpected if that suddenly happened in an emulator.

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[Ugly Joe]

> Of course, we'll see if that's the case, I just don't really
> get that 'these PC emulators are open source/worked on by
> people not of Nintendo therefore they are good and Nintendo
> official emulator is teh bad' argument.

Well, both emulators would be imperfect. They'll both have bugs. An open source emulator could be patched up and made better by anyone with enough programming knowledge to do so. The official emulator only has Nintendo coding it and so they'd have to find most of the bugs themselves (or make some kind of way of reporting bugs) and fix them themselves. Nintendo may have better documentation, but open-source has way more people working for them.
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[The 9th Sage]

> Sorry if that doesn't sway me. You guys are all insane.

"Join us...it is your destiny. We can play the games together, with console and TV."

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[The 9th Sage]

>An open source emulator could be patched up and made
> better by anyone with enough programming knowledge to do so.
> The official emulator only has Nintendo coding it and so
> they'd have to find most of the bugs themselves (or make
> some kind of way of reporting bugs) and fix them themselves.

Yeah, I know...but which is better? Better knowledge of the system and the bugs might not happen in the first place, but if it's not 'out in the open' like PC emulators than bug testing would likely be internal for the most part unless there's some major flaw after release (which isn't likely to happen).

I guess time will tell... dun dun DUUUN. <img src=smilies/mystery.gif>
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[soniczip]

> For 1 player? I just don't see the appeal. I mean really,
> what advantage is there? I already listed several
> downsides.
>

Well, an upside is that on a TV, you don't need to fish around your room for a usable controller.
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[phonymike]

look at past emulators made comercially for consoles. there was a geny one for the dreamcast, it was sweet, say 95% near perfect, but sounds and shit were off. How about the n64 zelda one for the gc? it was great too, but still not perfect. these emus were at best similar to current emus available from the internet. I thought they bought and modified a geny emu for the dc rather than make it from scratch.

sure they have all the specs and shit, but they also have a time frame. they can't spend years improving these things on a daily basis, they need to make the program with a set time frame and set amount of money, then release it. the more improvements they make to the emus, the more money it costs to pay these people. it's not like on the net where people cheer for new versions of free software. Niny's programmers work for money, not for free.

their nes emu for the gba was sweet, however identical results could be had using a freeware nes emu and a gba flash card. once the pirates get control of the console, niny can't compete with emulators.
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[Lillymon]

There are a few things you're missing though.

1) The Revolution is going to be far more powerful than any console you mentioned in your post. That's going to help with accuracy.

2) What makes you think Nintendo is going to do this for free? The virtual console function is going to cost money to use. It may be a subscription service, pay-per-download, rental service, or some mixture of the above. But it's going to be making Nintendo (another others now) some money, and that's a good incentive for Nintendo (and those others) to keep going with development.

3) Unlike the previous emulators (which were packaged with games) this is a big function of the console that Nintendo is hyping up a lot. Can you imagine the embarrassment of Nintendo if it ended up being anything other than near-perfect? They can't just sweep this under the carpet, the gaming world is watching them now. It'll have to be good.

4) Nintendo's consoles are not known for ease of piracy. I can't think of a single one with a piracy scene as big as its competitors, and I don't see any reason for Nintendo to let that change with the Revolution.

Nintendo can't just slack off and let freeware emulators get ahead of them. They've committed themselves now and they'd have to be insane not to give it their all.
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[Lillymon]

> The official emulator only has Nintendo coding it and so
> they'd have to find most of the bugs themselves (or make
> some kind of way of reporting bugs) and fix them themselves.

They're probably going to do that. Implementing an online user feedback feature would be fairly trivial. If you find a bug in one of their emulators, Nintendo will probably want to know about it. I call it the 'Sony beta testing strategy'. Why bother employing beta testers? You've got millions of gamers to do that for you!
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[Lillymon]

> Only if you're insane.
>
> Fuzzy picture,

Only if you're using an inferior composite connection, which I'm not (RGB SCART FTW).

> having to hassle with hardware trouble,

You're joking, right? I don't know how this topic drifted off into debates about how bad reliability of the NES was, but we started with the Revolution, and Nintendo's present consoles are tougher and more reliable than any other competiors (especially the PC).

In four years, I could note one minor failure with my GameCube (that was fixed by resetting the console). Considering how many times I've thrown my controller at it, that's pretty amazing.

Over the same period of time, I could fill a book the size of War and Peace with PC failures. Hardware failures, software failures, overheating, a hard drive simply vanishing (twice). Not the best reliability I've ever seen.
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[The 9th Sage]

> 3) Unlike the previous emulators (which were packaged with
> games)

That's an interesting thought...all those emulators had to run were the games Nintendo was packaging them with so they probably did take shortcuts on those particular emulators.

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[sephiroth111]

> That's an interesting thought...all those emulators had to
> run were the games Nintendo was packaging them with so they
> probably did take shortcuts on those particular emulators.

side note: hudson apparently hijacked the PocketNES code and illegally used it in their own game without permission. who says nintendo wont do the same and just tailor it to what they want to do? What can the emulator writers say if nintendo decided to grab the nestopia source and modify it to run on their hardware, stripped with a predefined set of controls or something.
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[The 9th Sage]

> side note: hudson apparently hijacked the PocketNES code and
> illegally used it in their own game without permission

Well, not really... PocketNES' source code is freely available and Loopy (the original creator of it) said that he left the license for the program open so people could put it to good use like that. :P I mean, would have been nice of them to give a nod back to him, but he really had no problem that they used it. The end users of PocketNES had a lot bigger problem than he did, heh.
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ZDD's Weblog - Now it has content! Really!</a></P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by The 9th Sage on 04/01/06 06:24 PM.</FONT></P>