What is god? [Archive] - Zophar's Message Domain

Blade556

11-24-2005, 02:44 PM

I wasn't sure whether this is a good Backroom topic, but if it so seems to be, then move it there please.

--------------------

So, what is God to you?

That seems to be a good question. I had always believed that he was some mighty figure from the stars, but now it seems he is more than that.

I believe that he is always with us in mind and spirit. He surrounds us and can aid us in our times of need.

Ask and you shall receive, as I believe the saying goes.

Everytime I'm down, I ask him for help. It doesn't matter if I scream it or barely whisper it, he always quells the turmoil within myself.

Countlessly, I've asked him for the strength and mental will to help me fight some mental battle/prepare for something that requires my full attention. And time and time again, I always find that strength.

I can prove this by saying that whenever I'm sad, I think to myself "No, I don't need help with this", I remain in misery. When I finally ask for his help, I feel much better.

So, I believe God may or may not have been real ages ago, but today he remains here, guiding us when we need guidance the most.

To put it one way, I suppose you could compare God to The Force, in the sense that he surrounds all things and binds them together.

It is my belief that he limits himself to helping us for our greater good. He won't help you win a war, he won't help you open your locker. But he can give you the patience and the mental clarity to focus on remembering the correct combination to your locker.

As well, I believe understanding this is a key evolutionary step. We all have latent psychic ability, and perhaps this is our way to unlocking it.

After all, Jesus was just a man, and look what he could do.

Thats what I believe God is. Anyone else have another opinion?

Lillymon

11-24-2005, 05:02 PM

> Thats what I believe God is. Anyone else have another
> opinion?

Nothing. I'm an atheist and have been for about the last decade.

Wow, that was short.

thegodofhellfire

11-24-2005, 08:35 PM

> So, what is God to you?

A device to plug the gaps in our understanding of the Universe, and to give all lives and all events purpose.

People generally are happier that way, though I've made peace with my existentialism.

king killa

11-24-2005, 09:26 PM

> Thats what I believe God is. Anyone else have another
> opinion?
>

Many things..
I don't really believe in god. I am agnostic.
I think God was made up to answer the unanswerable questions. "where do we come from?" nobody truly knows, so they made up God.
I also think he is a scare tactic. If there was no consequences for any of our actions in life, we would do anything we wanted. Saying "if you kill someone, you'll BURN for all eternity" is an easy way to make people not kill.

But think about how far fetched that is. Burning is probably the most painful thing in the world, and it just so happens to be where we go if we are bad? I call bullshit.

God is simply made up. If you feel that he gives you strength, that's fine.. I'm not going to call you ignorant or anything. But I'm sure it is just your mind.

Reaper man

11-24-2005, 11:44 PM

<a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God>This is God, according to Wiki.</a>

Ugly Joe

11-25-2005, 01:25 AM

> Saying "if you kill someone, you'll BURN
> for all eternity" is an easy way to make people not kill.

I won't deny the existance of fire-and-brimstone preachers, but that's a skewed message. It is, more accurately, "repent your sins and accept Jesus, or else you'll burn for all eternity." People can kill and not burn for it, and people can also not kill but still burn. The message isn't "murderers go to Hell", but "even murderers who deserve to go to Hell can be saved."

And to make a less religious point, are you trying to justify killing (or sins in general)? Is there some kind of authority by which our actions become justified? Like, is it wrong to kill someone simply because it is against the law?

edit: For clarification, I'm not saying (or arguing) that religions other than Christianity are wrong. I am implying that killa's understanding of Christianity is incorrect.Edited by Ugly Joe on 11/24/05 08:29 PM.

king killa

11-25-2005, 01:27 AM

> And to make a less religious point, are you trying to
> justify killing (or sins in general)? Is there some kind of
> authority by which our actions become justified? Like, is
> it wrong to kill someone simply because it is against the
> law?
>

No, killing is wrong either way, but there are people who don't have that grasp, and don't do it because of consequence, not because of morality.

Ugly Joe

11-25-2005, 01:33 AM

> not because of morality.

How do you justify your morals? I'm only curious since I've always used religion as my main moral compass.

soniczip

11-25-2005, 02:12 AM

> So, what is God to you?
>

To me, he seems like one who likes to make life miserable for the different people and great for the undeserving torturers under the ruse that "it happens for a reason."

My dad is a mentally abusive hypocrite that believes breaking the sabbath is thinking about Monopoly and discipline is spanking your kids with 4 foot rods. Yet he tells us to be kind to everyone because God says so.
<img src=smilies/mystery.gif>
That generally makes God look like an all-powerful being that likes to watch people suffer and makes his most devoted followers look like a bunch of gun-stockpiling assholes.

I'm a Christian that is totally torn apart on where to stand.
Although I also use religion as my main moral compass.

Rai will say the same thing as Lillymon.

"And God made the extension cord, and saw it, and it was good"
----
Rai

king killa

11-25-2005, 02:30 AM

> How do you justify your morals? I'm only curious since I've
> always used religion as my main moral compass.
>

killing someone who doesn't deserve to be killed is wrong because that person deserves a life. the killer isn't going to suffer after death for it, but he should certainly pay the price while he is here.

Dark Knight Kain

11-25-2005, 05:31 AM

The Sun. It created our planet, and in essence created us. In about five billion years from it will destroy this planet.

thegodofhellfire

11-25-2005, 06:46 PM

> How do you justify your morals? I'm only curious since I've
> always used religion as my main moral compass.

An innate belief in what's right and wrong. It's well documented that young kids grasp what's 'right' and 'wrong' long before religious and social indoctrination take place. People of religion are wrong to claim a monopoly on morality, since for the most part their morality is a codified version of innate social behaviours.

Pack animals don't arbitrarily kill each other, as it is with right-minded members of any human society. It's basic pragmatism.

king killa

11-25-2005, 07:00 PM

Very well worded. You even get a <img src=smilies/werd.gif> smiley.

Vampire hunter D

11-25-2005, 10:48 PM

Hmmm....

http://www.kimmelskorner.com/Images/clapton_is_god.gif</img>

Eric Clapton's the man/God.

pipes

11-26-2005, 06:50 AM

Bush?

EDIT: Awesomehttp://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/smilies/laff.gifEdited by pipes clangor on 11/26/05 01:53 AM.

C:Serverxampphtdocszopharoldwwwthreadsattachmentsb ush.jpg

Crazy_MYKL

11-28-2005, 06:07 PM

> So, what is God to you?

God is a word. A very silly word, that people kill each other over. It's absurd.

Audigy

11-28-2005, 07:55 PM

> God is simply made up. If you feel that he gives you
> strength, that's fine.. I'm not going to call you ignorant
> or anything. But I'm sure it is just your mind.

<img src=smilies/werd.gif>

God, to me, is the instilled belief within people (forced by society) that causes you to differentiate between right and wrong.

Essentially, a conscience. Personally though, I don't fear burning for all eternity if I commit a grave sin. I instead fear being locked up and having the key thrown away. ;) I think that's a much more realistic fear to instill into someone, best told by those who have had a previous run-in with La Policia.

Disch

11-28-2005, 08:21 PM

> How do you justify your morals? I'm only curious since I've
> always used religion as my main moral compass.

Common sense. This thing called a conscience.

When you can make the distinction between doing 'harm' and not, your conscience will become your guidance for morality. If I punch a kid in the arm and he starts crying... I don't need God to tell me that was the wrong thing to do -- it should be pretty obvious. And that's exactly how it works. Kids are jerks growing up... they push their limits testing their boundaries. When they hit their boundaries and start feeling bad about things they do/have done, then they stop doing them, and refrain from doing them in the future. As you grow older you can look ahead more and can use logic and imagination to forsee if you will feel bad about something before resorting to trial-and-error.

I'm not going to run out and kill someone... but that's not because God says it's wrong. And it's not even really because the law says it's wrong. It's because I don't think I could live with the guilt of knowing I took someone else's life.

Of course, there has to be a 3rd party in establishing your own personal morals. If you were the only living being in the world you wouldn't feel bad about anything (except for maybe stuff that hurts you directly). But I don't think anyone should base their moralities solely on the law or any religion.... at least not unless their incapable of some basic compassion. Both law and religion get old and outdated... and sometimes even following one will actually turn you away from what is really the 'right' thing to do. Instead you should base your moralities on what you find to be acceptable by those around you... since they are going to be the ones who are affected by your actions.

Compassion, guilt, reason, conscience. That's how I define my morals. And they're all 100% unrelated to religion. In fact I find several fellow atheists to be some of the kindest, most honest and sensitive people I know. You don't need religion when you have reason.

Ugly Joe

11-28-2005, 08:34 PM

> Common sense. This thing called a conscience.

To an extent, I equate the strength of one's conscience to one's relationship with God. That is, your conscience is an influence of God (whether you're a Christian or not, or whether you even believe in God or not).

> In
> fact I find several fellow atheists to be some of the
> kindest, most honest and sensitive people I know.

Same here (less the 'fellow'). However, I've also known some athiests (or, at least, people claiming to be athiests) to be total dicks and, sometimes, complete and utter morons. To be fair, I can say the same exact thing about some Christians that I know.

Disch

11-28-2005, 08:49 PM

> To an extent, I equate the strength of one's conscience to
> one's relationship with God. That is, your conscience is an
> influence of God (whether you're a Christian or not, or
> whether you even believe in God or not).

I suppose I can understand that kinda.

Though when I look at scenarios I see that your conscience is driven by your surroundings more than anything else (if not solely). A son who's father teaches him to steal will have no moral issues with stealing on his own... that is to say his conscience won't bother him. At least not unless a 3rd party intervenes and sways him. Someone who would never harm a fly will turn into a killing machine in times of war, because that is what his surroundings expect/demand of him.

I stand firm in my beliefs that conscience and morality come from personal experience... and nothing but. There's just too much evidence to that effect to ignore, and any other reasonable explaination (ie: God's influence) requires complete faith and lacks any kind of proof.

> Same here (less the 'fellow'). However, I've also known
> some athiests (or, at least, people claiming to be athiests)
> to be total dicks and, sometimes, complete and utter morons.
> To be fair, I can say the same exact thing about some
> Christians that I know.

Well yeah... I didn't mean to say that all Atheists are beautiful human beings. My point was you don't need religion to be a good person. Some of the religious scare tactics I've heard in my day include things like "people who do not believe in God lack morals and are evil" or other things to that effect. I swear, ignorant statements like that really piss me off sometimes... although nobody here brought that up in the thread (I'm not accusing anyone). This thread just made me think back to that.

Isildur

11-28-2005, 09:20 PM

> God, to me, is the instilled belief within people (forced by
> society) that causes you to differentiate between right and
> wrong.
>
> Essentially, a conscience. Personally though, I don't fear
> burning for all eternity if I commit a grave sin. I instead
> fear being locked up and having the key thrown away. ;) I
> think that's a much more realistic fear to instill into
> someone, best told by those who have had a previous run-in
> with La Policia.
>

I think what I normally fear most about doing something wrong is doing something wrong. There's a difference (or at least, I think there should be) between a conscience --a visceral (perhaps innate, to some extent?) sense of right and wrong-- and simple fear of punishment and desire for reward -- whether such consequences are imposed and granted by society, or whether they are promised by religion. (I'm agnostic, btw.) Perhaps fear of consequences is necessary as a tool for instilling or reinforcing values when raising a child, but ideally, by the time one is an adult, shouldn't those values should be integral to the way one thinks and acts?

Of course, some would argue (with, I admit, no shortage of disturbing examples to back such a claim) that by-and-large we're little more than selfish brutes with a thin veneer of morality kept in place only by the rules society places upon us...
It's a chilling thought, to me anyway. Btw, if anyone here hasn't read the original The Island of Dr. Moreau by H. G. Wells, I recommend it.

(Note that nothing in this post is intended as a personal criticism of any particular person here, including the member to whom I'm replying. In any case, by this point (following quite a few "post preview" edits) I've actually forgotten who that is. =P )


<center><img src=http://pages.nyu.edu/~jc73/misc/FieryAshNazg.gif></center>

Isildur

11-28-2005, 09:23 PM

> I wasn't sure whether this is a good Backroom topic,

Actually, I think this is shaping up to be one of the best Backroom threads in a while. <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>



<center><img src=http://pages.nyu.edu/~jc73/misc/FieryAshNazg.gif></center>

Ugly Joe

11-28-2005, 09:38 PM

> Though when I look at scenarios I see that your conscience
> is driven by your surroundings more than anything else (if
> not solely).

Hmm...I would argue against this, but I think it would be getting too personal and too off topic. I can see where you are coming from, though.

> Some of the religious scare
> tactics I've heard in my day include things like "people who
> do not believe in God lack morals and are evil" or other
> things to that effect. I swear, ignorant statements like
> that really piss me off sometimes...

Perfeclty understandable. There is certainly no shortage of ignorant religious folk on this planet.

GeminiMan

11-29-2005, 01:12 AM

http://www.bobsagetisgod.comBob Saget</a>.

The 9th Sage

11-29-2005, 01:54 AM

> Perhaps fear of consequences is necessary as
> a tool for instilling or reinforcing values when raising a
> child, but ideally, by the time one is an adult, shouldn't
> those values should be integral to the way one thinks and
> acts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaotic_Good#Chaotic_GoodChaotic Good.</a> <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

Just made me think of this...some personality test I took some time ago (don't know URL) painted me as Chaotic Good. While I don't know that it's totally accurate, I think you could apply the phrase to the current conversation.

Consciense existing outside the system. Probably they'd follow the 'rules' more often than not but just because it fits their own standard of ethics, not because of some religion or governmental organization.. (at least this is how I understand the description) Just sounds like what some of the people in this thread are saying, anyway.

Blade556

11-29-2005, 03:16 AM

I don't understand how someone can not have faith when it comes down to killing. All the animals in our world kill in one way or the other, trying to hold their place in the evolutionary cycle. Most animals kill for food, and sometimes even over mates.

Humans are the most sentient creatures on this planet. When we were created, when ADAM was created, God gave him the freedom of choice to follow him into holy serenity in the Garden of Eden, or choose a path of suffering by disobeying God.

But even though we were cast out of the most beautiful place on earth, we are still forgiven to this day. Jesus died for our sins, and with his blessing we can be forgiven again.

If a soldier fought for what he thought was good, and asked for forgiveness, he would be forgiven. His conscience would be relieved. This same concept goes for all sinners who kill and commit great sin. If his or her mind is open to faith, then God will touch that person and give him/her a feeling of goodness.

It happens all the time with me. I don't know how people can be so agnostic if they don't even bother to try and ask for his forgiveness and guidance.

He who asks is a fool for 5 minutes, but he who never asks is a fool forever
- Chinese Proverb

If only you would try...You might be saved...

Isildur

11-29-2005, 03:35 AM

> Pack animals don't arbitrarily kill each other, as it is
> with right-minded members of any human society. It's basic
> pragmatism.
>

While I'm inclined to agree with you to a certain extent, justifying human morality through the pragmatism in evidence elsewhere in the natural world does have its problems...
For example, from an evolutionary perspective, extreme acts of altruism, such, as risking one's own life to save others' lives, don't really make sense unless the ones being saved are very close to one, genetically. For the general case, reciprocation for such behavior cannot be assured, because the fact that benefit is given to the species overall by such behavior is offset by the fact that it is to an individual's personal advantage, in terms of reproductive legacy, to cheat by taking help but not giving it in return, and thus "cheater" strains are overwhelmingly likely to evolve to take advantage of such behaviors. Trust-building mechanisms can evolve, but that still wouldn't explain risking oneself for a complete stranger.

Here, then, is something that would seem to go against the grain of what one would expect of pragmatic natural behavior just as much as your example of pack animals arbitrarily killing each other, but when was the last time you heard of a fireman being condemned as evil for saving a stranger at great risk to himself?

P.S. for a similar (but not exactly the same) look at the matter of morality and altruism, here's (http://www.1001insomniacnights.com/night.cfm?week=64) something a friend of mine wrote.

P.P.S. Btw, for anyone interested in looking it up, I think there was an article about a year ago in Science News (http://www.sciencenews.org/) on some attempts at mathematical modeling of the role reciprocity can play in evolution.



<center><img src=http://pages.nyu.edu/~jc73/misc/FieryAshNazg.gif></center>

Reaper man

11-29-2005, 03:39 AM

> So, what is God to you?

a four-legged domesticated canine

oh wait, whoops. Sorry, I'm Lysdexic

Ugly Joe

11-29-2005, 03:53 AM

noel toaster

Isildur

11-29-2005, 04:55 AM

> I don't understand how someone can not have faith when it
> comes down to killing. All the animals in our world kill in
> one way or the other, trying to hold their place in the
> evolutionary cycle. Most animals kill for food, and
> sometimes even over mates.
>
> Humans are the most sentient creatures on this planet. When
> we were created, when ADAM was created, God gave him the
> freedom of choice to follow him into holy serenity in the
> Garden of Eden, or choose a path of suffering by disobeying
> God.
>

When taken together, your first and second paragraphs seem to imply that you believe in evolution, but only for non-human life?

> But even though we were cast out of the most beautiful place
> on earth, we are still forgiven to this day. Jesus died for
> our sins, and with his blessing we can be forgiven again.
>

Hmm, critiquing this may be akin to playing with matches, in terms of offending people, but this is the Backroom and you did bring it up, so...

No matter how many times I've heard Christians assure me that Jesus died to absolve us of our sins, no matter how passionately I've been told the depths of pain he endured supposedly just so he could save us, it has never made the slightest impact on me, both because I find it utterly illogical that any merciful and just God would require or even accept such an act to pay off other people's moral debts, and because I don't accept the assertion I've heard countless times that we are all sinners who could never hope to be worthy of Heaven otherwise.

Central to Christian theology, as I've always heard it stated, is the idea that Jesus redeemed all believers by enduring pain, humiliation, and execution in their stead. In ordinary life, you can pay off someone else's monetary debt because the creditor is just interested in return for the credit or money he gave. Here's the problem: Misery isn't money. The idea that someone can suffer for someone else's sins makes absolutely no moral sense to me, and never will. Punishment isn't something that can be bartered or taken on as a gift, because (aside from sadistic enjoyment) punishment has absolutely no value in-and-of itself: its sole value lies in reform and deterence. A merciful and just God doesn't need misery any more than he needs suspenders, and wouldn't accept it as payment to absolve another. What good would it do Him, or us, to allow Jesus to be undeservedly punished, as payment for others being let off the hook? Of course, many would argue that the good that would come of it is the saving of all us otherwise irredeemable sinners, which brings me to my second point.

I reject the belief that we are all inherently sinners, such that, without a miraculous act, all of us would be condemned to burn in Hell. First of all, I think that anyone who has any ties of affection to any other human deep down knows this to be false, and knows in his heart that the good in a person can outweigh the bad. Secondly, why would a merciful and just God give humans the freedom to choose between faith and lack of faith, but not give them the ability to be good or bad, as demonstrated by their acts?

In closing, I just want to remind everyone that I don't mean this as a personal attack on Christians, just an explanation of why Christianity is not plausible to me, personally. Blade seriously asked about our personal beliefs regarding God, and in the post to which I'm replying he brought up his belief that Jesus died for our sins, and in this post I'm giving my honest opinion regarding the Christian conception of redemption.



<center><img src=http://pages.nyu.edu/~jc73/misc/FieryAshNazg.gif></center>

Ugly Joe

11-29-2005, 05:16 AM

I belive the crucifixion was supposed to be metaphorical to the tradition of animal sacrifice. People would sacrifice animals as an offering to God as penance for their sins. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. Ergo, Christians accept the fact that Jesus died to absolve all their sins and that, because of this, they can gain access to Heaven.

I'm nearly positive I'm missing somethere there, but my point is that an understanding of Old Testament animal sacrifice (which I sadly lack) would probably help you understand why someone dying for sins is supposed to be regarded as significant.

Disch

11-29-2005, 05:07 PM

> If his or her mind is open to
> faith, then God will touch that person and give him/her a
> feeling of goodness. It happens all the time with me.

There is a logical explaination for everything. This feeling is not divine... rather it's something very down-to-earth sometimes referred to as 'emotional release' often combined with 'acceptance'.

Humans, being social animals, NEED (this is a physical/mental health necessity) to release their emotions outward towards others. I'm sure everyone's heard it's not healthy to keep anger or sorrow bottled up inside them... but this applies to other emotions as well. Excitement, happiness, frustration, guilt... you name it. The next time you're really happy... try not to show any outward signs (not even a smile). I can guarantee that if you can even pull it off, you won't stay happy very long. That's because you need to show you're happy.

When you open up and confess to God, or ask God for help... it does feel good, no doubt. But that's not because you're opening up to God. It's just because you're opening up. Sometimes, it would be just as (or sometimes even more) effective to open up to a trusted friend/family member or someone else that's close to you. Situation dependent, of course. Hell, sometimes your pet can be the best listener in the world. The point is you just need another being to release/open up to. It doesn't matter who it is really... as long as it's someone.

God can make a good candidate for this because:
1) He's always around and available.
2) He's guaranteed not to give you a negative response. He'll always forgive. (this is a con as well, though, see below)
3) He's an authority figure. (big, BIG pro, explained below)

However, he can make a lousy candidate for this because:
1) It only works if you truly believe you're speaking to God. If you don't you may as well be asking yourself for help.
2) He's guaranteed not to give you a negative response. This can be a bad thing because sometimes the thing you need most is a slap in the face to get you in the right mindset. Sympathy is not always the best longterm solution... and God is incapable of supplying anything else.
3) Apart from the emotional release of opening up... God provides no other help.. and somtimes you need more. For example, when's the last time God gave you 50 bucks to help cover this month's rent? Or when's the last time he gave you a stress-melting massage? Or even advice/feedback on a difficult decision you have to make? These are things your fellow human beings can offer which God cannot.

The 3rd pro listed above is the big one God has going in his favor. Humans never outgrow the joy which comes from pleasing others... this is doubly true for pleasing authority figures. Whether it be your parents, your teachers, or even your boss. Anyone who's in a position above you and who you hold in respect. If you can do something to have them look at you in gratitude/respect/pride... you get this big warm fuzzy feeling.

This is something God has in spades. On top of being the ultimate authority figure, he's also held in the highest of respect of those who follow him. Additionally... he's extremely easy to please. You can approach him with the worst of news... confess these horrible sins... and walk away feeling like he's proud of you --- that's something no human can offer.

And in fact... I find this to be the biggest... or even the only appeal to religious faith. At least it's the only thing I feel like I'm missing out on by being an Atheist.

Anyway, enough of my rambling

Ugly Joe

11-29-2005, 05:24 PM

> 3) Apart from the emotional release of opening up... God
> provides no other help.. and somtimes you need more.

Most Christians will strongly disagree with you on this point. It may be true that God will not hand you $50, but He may provide someway in which you will receive $50 (a friend, charity, etc) or some other path in which you don't actually need the $50. When faced with difficult decisions, many Christians will ask God for guidance. I know many people in my parents' church who will tell you that God told them which path to choose. To them, God is far from quiet.

Of course, you can view these things as something other than God's intervention (which I'm sure you do). Getting money from a friend after praying about it or finding some way to scrap by without it could easily be blamed on chance. One could argue that it would have happened exactly the same way without ever having asked for God's help. Getting answers from God is, from what I've experienced and heard from others, more of a strong sense of intuition than a voice in your head. Again, you can argue that meditation on a decision would lead you to the same result -- that asking God for help was merely an exercise in getting you to calm down and think.

It's largely based on what you choose to believe.

Blade556

11-29-2005, 05:48 PM

> I belive the crucifixion was supposed to be metaphorical to
> the tradition of animal sacrifice. People would sacrifice
> animals as an offering to God as penance for their sins.
> Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. Ergo, Christians accept
> the fact that Jesus died to absolve all their sins and that,
> because of this, they can gain access to Heaven.

I'm not too sure I agree about it being sacrificial, although it was a great sacrifice for him to die for us. But what did he prove? What did he accomplish by dying? He never died for God, he died for our salvation. The death, in itself, was punishment for Heresy.

When Jesus died, what did that mean for us? Did it mean our salvation from sin? Why do we still sin, then?

Perhaps the answer is incomprehensible, but I believe that he died so we have something to put our faith in, something to wash away the sins we have commited and start anew.

If a rapist/pedophile was on his deathbed, and asked God forgiveness, what do you think God would do? If the sinner had shown real, true remorse for his actions and wanted to be forgiven?

If you think that is wrong, you simply do not understand.

Isildur

11-29-2005, 07:06 PM

> Perhaps the answer is incomprehensible, but I believe that
> he died so we have something to put our faith in, something
> to wash away the sins we have commited and start anew.
>

But why would the death of an innocent wash away anything? God could decide to be infinitely merciful, and generously forgive all who put their faith in Him, or God could decide to be just in a more strict manner (with the goal of encouraging us to work to better ourselves) and demand that people do good deeds and work to atone for their misdeeds, and face all the consequences due to them. If the former, why would he require a death as payment for the decision? An omnipotent God doesn't need anything, and in my opinion, a supremely benevolent God would neither want nor even accept a human sacrifice as payment for anything.



<center><img src=http://pages.nyu.edu/~jc73/misc/FieryAshNazg.gif></center>

Disch

11-29-2005, 08:24 PM

> Most Christians will strongly disagree with you on this
> point. It may be true that God will not hand you $50, but
> He may provide someway in which you will receive $50 (a
> friend, charity, etc)

The problem with this is it contradicts the idea of free will. If you credit God for your friend lending you $50, then it must not have been your friends free choice to offer the $50. It implies God uses us as puppets to fulfill others' prayers. I don't see how you can accept that and at the same time believe we have free will... they're mutually exclusive.

> or some other path in which you don't actually need the $50.

This ties in with the same idea. You would have to see the path for yourself and choose to take it. And if it involves others (which it certainly would considering it involves money... a societal construct), it would also have to be their will for you to be able to take this alternative path.

> When faced with difficult decisions,
> many Christians will ask God for guidance. I know many
> people in my parents' church who will tell you that God told
> them which path to choose. To them, God is far from quiet.

I don't really know what to say about this one. My first thought is that these people aren't giving themselves enough credit for their thought/anguish. I'm certain they don't claim to hear the voice of God... so unless they think God is implanting ideas in their brain I don't see what's happening. And even then, how do they know that those ideas are not their own? Where do you draw the line? How do you know which thoughts are yours and which are from God?

Instinct or intuition, as you mentioned, are completely natural behaviors exhibited in even "godless" animals. Your intuition to choose one dicision over the other comes from life experience, knowledge of the relevent facts, foresight/prediction, and of course... instict. We all have the tools... and we all know how to use them.

> Again, you can argue that meditation on a
> decision would lead you to the same result -- that asking
> God for help was merely an exercise in getting you to calm
> down and think.

I would. Why? Because that's a reasonable explaination. Calming down and thinking... something we do every single day in our lives to come up with solutions for everyday problems. I mean if you're going to take this road, why not just credit all your decisions to God?

There's rational, logical explainations for everything. Falling back to supersticious hocus-pocus to fill in the unknowns just seems like a total waste of potential knowledge.

Ugly Joe

11-29-2005, 09:13 PM

I was actually half-way through a long response, but let's just leave it at this since we both seem to be repeating ourselves. Well played <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

Disch

11-29-2005, 10:20 PM

heh, yeah.

Plus since the topic was "What is God" I felt I should throw my interpretation of him out there. <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

Blade556

11-30-2005, 03:00 AM

One such as God would not have to force anything upon anyone. Take into consideration that he gave us free will. He could have made humanity as mindless drones, always doing his bidding. But that is the work of some far less than he. Namely, humanity itself.

Because we are capable of anything we set our minds to, there is also the chance we might sin. For those who wish to repent for those sins.

Jesus died for us, and reclaimed the Old Testament saints and brought them to Heaven, as well as died for us too. When he died, he became the avatar of Christianity. Who do we pray to, God, or Jesus? Before Jesus, who did we pray to?

They are both one in the same. 2 parts of the Holy Trinity. The holy spirit surrounds us all, and encompasses all life on earth. It carries our penance to God and we are forgiven for our sins.

God is merciful to his children. Would you forgive your child? You might say no off the bat, depending on what he/she does, but deep in your heart you would find the strength to forgive them...You know you would...

For those of you with children of your own, you understand this. How could you not forgive something you created? Not now, perhaps later in life, but this is a fine line between our form of compassion and that of a deity such as God.

Octocrook

11-30-2005, 06:04 AM

Damn, there's no ytmnd "What is God?" Roxbury spinoff...doh! Sorry for not really contributing to the thread. <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

Isildur

11-30-2005, 06:28 AM

I'm not sure if the first few paragraphs of that post were actually meant in reply to me or not; they don't really seem to address what I was saying; instead they speak more broadly of Christian theology.

> God is merciful to his children. Would you forgive your
> child? You might say no off the bat, depending on what
> he/she does, but deep in your heart you would find the
> strength to forgive them...You know you would...
>
> For those of you with children of your own, you understand
> this. How could you not forgive something you created?

It's quite understandable that as a being of infinite mercy, God could forgive anything men do, and I never challenged that. My point was that I don't see how the death of an innocent (Jesus) is in any way relavent to that. Taking your familial analogy, it's like saying that a father was able to forgive his younger son for grave offenses, as a result of the fact that an older son, in order pay for the transgressions of his kid brother, let himself be beaten up by a local gang. If the father forgave the younger son, it would be because his love as a father moved him to mercy. It would have nothing to do with the older brother choosing to "take on the sins" of his younger brother, because that would make no sense whatsoever. Such a sacrifice would therefore be completely unnecessary.

Perhaps we're approaching a conversational impasse, because in the end, faith has to be exactly that: faith; and by its personal nature, it can't really be proven to one person by another; rather, it is something that ultimately has to come from within.



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