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anarchist
10-28-2004, 04:41 PM
http://dailykos.com/story/2004/10/27/22442/878 This doesn't suprise me at all.

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Kuikorosu
10-28-2004, 05:17 PM
I guess he IS for cloning after all! <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

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SpaceTiger
10-29-2004, 03:35 AM
Why is this not against the law?

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king killa
10-29-2004, 03:50 AM
I don't see what the big deal is. You can't even see the copies in the video, only in the promotional picture.

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Danoz
10-29-2004, 04:31 AM
> Why is this not against the law?

Watch the ad, there is no duplication of soldiers.

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SpaceTiger
10-29-2004, 04:37 AM
> Watch the ad, there is no duplication of soldiers.

Are you actually denying this? The Bush campaign has already http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/28/bush.ad.ap/index.htmlacknowledged</a> the doctoring.

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king killa
10-29-2004, 11:59 AM
> Are you actually denying this? The Bush campaign has
> already acknowledged the doctoring.
>

No, he is telling you to watch the video. There is no duplicates in it.

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Danoz
10-29-2004, 03:21 PM
> Are you actually denying this? The Bush campaign has
> already acknowledged the doctoring.

Nah, but they changed it. It appears to me that one of the graphic designers quickly did some crowd copying to make the text fit. I wouldn't read too much into it. Hell, John Kerry ran an ad where a crowd is clapping for him the entire time (even though he's actually cutting his own speech, the crowd claps seamlessly). Same difference, expect this particular edit of the Bush advertisers was obviously stupid... still nothing to get your panties in a twist over.

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IceWolf20
10-29-2004, 05:29 PM
> Nah, but they changed it. It appears to me that one of the
> graphic designers quickly did some crowd copying to make the
> text fit. I wouldn't read too much into it...this particular
> edit of the Bush advertisers was obviously stupid... still
> nothing to get your panties in a twist over.

I have an announcement to make....Danoz and I agree....what next, me voting for Bush!?!? Well, lets not go that far <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

But seriously, big deal....how many times every damn day is something doctored to make it look better? This change really didn't have an effect on anything....all it did was fill in a hole. Its not like it was filling empty stands with soldiers. Its intention was not to deceive, but to make it look better....big fucking deal.

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puduhead
10-29-2004, 06:16 PM
Appropriately titled "Whatever It Takes"

hahahah

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SpaceTiger
10-29-2004, 08:44 PM
> Its intention was not to deceive, but to
> make it look better....big fucking deal.

Interesting words from someone claiming that the government owns him. You do realize that, if the government owns you, it's because they control the flow of information, right? Is this single instance a big deal? No. Is the concept of campaigns being able to make ads with altered images, videos, and sound a big deal? I certainly think so. We should start a shit storm everytime something like this happens because if we don't, the next time will be a big fucking deal.

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Cornellius
10-29-2004, 08:49 PM
> should start a shit storm everytime something like this
> happens because if we don't, the next time will be a big
> fucking deal.

True.

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SpaceTiger
10-29-2004, 08:51 PM
> Hell, John Kerry
> ran an ad where a crowd is clapping for him the entire time
> (even though he's actually cutting his own speech, the crowd
> claps seamlessly).

Then I'm equally opposed to that. This isn't about Bush-bashing, it's about trying to keep the powers that be in check.

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IceWolf20
10-29-2004, 09:26 PM
Fine. Then I want every digitally airbrushed image in every magazine to be unaltered. I want every photo ever taken and used in advertisemetns and media to be wholly and unequivocally unaltered. My POINT was that theres no sense in making a big deal about this BECAUSE it happens EVERY FUCKING DAY ALL THE TIME....and we dont' do a damn thing about thos instances....nor do we complain or make excuses....we just accept it and move on. This one picture cannot be singled out as a specific instance of deception when it happens millions of times a day....this is hypocricy. Do I like it? NO. Can I do anythign about it....NO. Do I bitch about it...NO. I know what is true and what is false (at least I like to think I'm SOMEWHAT educated)....why? Because I just don't take for granted whatever the "liberal media" or psycho conservative douchebags feed to me and I do my own research...I'm not going to make a fuss about a god damned picture that doesn't hurt and/or deceive anyone into thinking something that is not true. "OH NOES!!! THEY MOVED THE PODIUM AND PUT SOLDIERS IN WHERE IT WAS!!!!" Give me a fucking break.

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SpaceTiger
10-29-2004, 09:32 PM
> Fine. Then I want every digitally airbrushed image in every
> magazine to be unaltered.

What the fuck do magazines have to do with this? I'm talking about campaign ads. If it's happening all the time in campaign ads then I think it should be changed, yes. And what the fuck has gotten into you? You're usually a pleasant person to argue with.

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puduhead
10-29-2004, 09:36 PM
> Fine. Then I want every digitally airbrushed image in every
> magazine to be unaltered. I want every photo ever taken and
> used in advertisemetns and media to be wholly and
> unequivocally unaltered.

I WANNA SEE RALPH NADER'S POCK-MARKS GODDAMNIT!!

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king killa
10-30-2004, 06:08 PM
> What the fuck do magazines have to do with this?
>

They are advertisements. Same thing with a campaign. It's nothing more than advertisement for the candidate.

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thegodofhellfire
10-30-2004, 06:12 PM
> They are advertisements. Same thing with a campaign. It's
> nothing more than advertisement for the candidate.

That's true, but the product's much less trivial here. I think there's something to be said for prohibiting this sort of behaviour. It's not necessarily doing much harm just now, but you can see that it will be, if taken to its logical conclusion. If elections are to be based on honesty and integrity, I think a prohibition would be a welcome gesture.

<P ID="signature"></P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by thegodofhellfire on 10/30/04 01:14 PM.</FONT></P>

SpaceTiger
10-30-2004, 09:36 PM
I'm not particularly concerned about where they draw the line, as long as it's very clearly drawn. You can say that airbrushing a photo is harmless, and for the most part it is, but you have to ask yourself what kind of permission this implies. Would it bother you if they darkened or lightened a candidates skin to appeal to a particular demographic? What if they tried to make them appear to taller or more muscular? What if they airbrushed over a bullet entry wound or a smallpox scar? At what point does it become lying?

Personally, I think photographs, video, and sound in campaign advertisements should be left unaltered by law, but I'd be happy if there was a clearly drawn line. I'd be curious as to where people think that line should be.

Note: The second person in this post is not specifically directed at thegodofhellfire.

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thegodofhellfire
10-30-2004, 09:53 PM
> Personally, I think photographs, video, and sound in
> campaign advertisements should be left unaltered by law, but
> I'd be happy if there was a clearly drawn line. I'd be
> curious as to where people think that line should be.

I do take your point - as I said, I don't really see the harm in what was going on here, but I just think it's poor form for there to be any sort of alteration going on in respect of this kind of advert. It does go against the nature of what the candidates are trying to project - honesty. But I think we have to accept that all sorts of trivial alterations are inevitable - a favourable crop here, a simplifying edit there. Arbitrary rules certainly won't achieve much, since they're so easily circumvented.

Perhaps there might be some merit to a test in such matters - ie if an alteration of any form means the end product has a different core nature from the source material, then it should be illegal. Although subjective, the test could work in practice if some non-partisan arbitration panel were to be the sole judge in such matters. So, for example, the image in the original post would probably escape such a ruling, whereas the cut-and-paste attack ads misquoting John Kerry almost certainly wouldn't. It might work.

Having said that, any modification of source materials past the strictly mundane still doesn't sit easily with me in something as important as an election.

<P ID="signature"></P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by thegodofhellfire on 10/30/04 04:59 PM.</FONT></P>

Danoz
10-30-2004, 11:03 PM
Right, but as proven in this ad, those extremes would be called on by an astute public and media.

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SpaceTiger
10-30-2004, 11:36 PM
> Right, but as proven in this ad, those extremes would be
> called on by an astute public and media.

A good point if I felt we could rely on it, but I don't really feel that we can. Who's to say how many alterations have slipped through the cracks?

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That are everlasting
Though all just plastic too..." </P>

Danoz
10-31-2004, 12:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

A good point if I felt we could rely on it, but I don't really feel that we can. Who's to say how many alterations have slipped through the cracks?

<hr></blockquote>
There's just too many people to let things slip through the cracks. The very moment advertisements are released, they are examined by media, activists and people at home at great lengths. Every word and image is instantly attacked. If something were to slip through the cracks, the cracks are so small I can't imagine it would be anything significant or potentially dangerous. When an ad released split-second subliminal words, somebody found it and reported it. What if somebody didn't? Most psychologists tend to discredit the effects of subliminal ads as anything to really worry about. Again, the cracks are just too small to make a difference. What I'd be more concerned is outward, visible deception that exists in all presidential advertisements. I fall more in love with factcheck.org eveyday.

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SpaceTiger
10-31-2004, 12:43 AM
> There's just too many people to let things slip through the
> cracks.

I'm not convinced. UFO sightings are faked on a regular basis and some such hoaxes have lasted for decades. This thing with the Bush ad was really clumsy and obvious; anybody even mildly skilled with photoshop could have made it more convincing. For example, take this photo that a friend of mine altered with MS Paint:

http://www.astro.princeton.edu/~mack/justtruck.jpg"Mack" Truck</a>

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That are everlasting
Though all just plastic too..." </P>

IceWolf20
11-02-2004, 04:01 PM
> What the fuck do magazines have to do with this? I'm
> talking about campaign ads. If it's happening all the time
> in campaign ads then I think it should be changed, yes. And
> what the fuck has gotten into you? You're usually a
> pleasant person to argue with.

Sorry for being surly about it....I guess I'm just so fed up with all the political ads that I just don't give a fuck anymore. But as for magazines, I think we weren't on the same page....as was mentioned below, I was trying to get at that there should be a total and complete honesty in advertising...whether it be for cereal or a presidential candidate. But since this can't be done, I don't want to pick and choose what can and cannot be altered, but probably more as to a degree. Like any food product being advertised, the only part that has to be real is the actual product....say the milk in a cereal ad doesn't have to be real. I guess I'd like to see checking on all types of ads, and limitations on the amount of alteration can be done.


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