Just a thought....

[Fla Flash]

Look, not for nothing, I'm all in favor of liberating everyone and all that happy horseshit, but something concerns me here.
We're following a plan that was originally set to capture/kill/maim/whatever Osma Bin Laden. So why the fuck are we in Iraq?
My thoughts: Junior's finishing what daddy couldn't do.
My more important thoughts: We've gone in, kicked some ass (not a lot mind you; we should have had them beat down long before now) and we're spending money from Social Security, Medicare, etc.
Cause naturally when we go in and destroy, we go in and rebuild.
That's our nature.
But something's wrong with that.
I don't mind being the world's policeman, but can't we just hand out tickets instead?
We had no business going to Iraq. Danoz, there was no evidence of WMD. None. All they had was circumstancial at best.
If we follow the law universally, the way we follow it here, that a mistrial, bud.
I just can't understand trusting our lives and futures to a bunch of old, and apparently, at times, incompetent men who have no interest but to either follow their jobs with a ridiculous zeal or to get rid of their stock before the company gets the big contracts.
I don't trust a damned one of 'em.
We have become sheep.
Those of you who endorse the current course, I cry for you.
The next door is the slaughterhouse.

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[Danoz]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Look, not for nothing, I'm all in favor of liberating everyone and all that happy horseshit, but something concerns me here. We're following a plan that was originally set to capture/kill/maim/whatever Osma Bin Laden. So why the fuck are we in Iraq? My thoughts: Junior's finishing what daddy couldn't do.

<hr></blockquote>
It's not exactly original thinking, though. You're edging with conspiracy when you suggest he's just trying to "finish what daddy couldn't do." The President made it so very clear that he didn't want to be a wartime president. You know, things change, 9/11 shifted everything and we are hunting Osama Bin Ladin, he will be brought down. Laid on the desk of our leader was intelligence, and from that he had to make a choice-- a choice I believe was the right one granted the information he had. We're only now finding the corruption of the United Nations in Oil for Food. What a damn shame, the same group that drafted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights threatened vetoes because certain individuals cared more about filling their rich pockets than brining a nonviolent end to an evil dictator.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

My more important thoughts: We've gone in, kicked some ass (not a lot mind you; we should have had them beat down long before now) and we're spending money from Social Security, Medicare, etc. Cause naturally when we go in and destroy, we go in and rebuild. That's our nature. But something's wrong with that. I don't mind being the world's policeman, but can't we just hand out tickets instead? We had no business going to Iraq. Danoz, there was no evidence of WMD. None. All they had was circumstancial at best. If we follow the law universally, the way we follow it here, that a mistrial, bud. I just can't understand trusting our lives and futures to a bunch of old, and apparently, at times, incompetent men who have no interest but to either follow their jobs with a ridiculous zeal or to get rid of their stock before the company gets the big contracts. I don't trust a damned one of 'em. We have become sheep. Those of you who endorse the current course, I cry for you. The next door is the slaughterhouse.

<hr></blockquote>
There are terrorists who block the road to peace. When examining the government, your belief that all politicians and leaders are corrupt will do nothing for you. "Trust, but verify-- and don't be afraid to see what you see." Ronald Reagan said that, but I suppose he fits into your category of "incompetent men". Now we could debate the initial entrance of Iraq for days, and we have. It's time to look forward, flash. What are we going to do now? That's the real question. Ultimately you'll need to vote for somebody you trust more.


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[Lillymon]

> The President made it so very clear that he didn't want to be a
> wartime president.

Bullshit. Afghanistan was justified retaliation for the WTC attack. Iraq was a poorly planned war based on faulty intelligence. Bush was either under-informed and went to war without actually knowing Saddam had done anything wrong, or knew about that all along and lied to American people. If the latter turns out to be true some day, Clinton's perjury will probably pale into insignifigance.

> You know, things change, 9/11 shifted everything and we are
> hunting Osama Bin Ladin, he will be brought down.

I'll believe it when I see it. Not before.

> Laid on the desk of our leader was intelligence, and from that he
> had to make a choice-- a choice I believe was the right one
> granted the information he had.

The right choice was to ignore the al Queda threat that lead to 9/11 happening? Oh, wait, you meant the other stuff that said Iraq had weapons of mass destuction ready to destroy countries in under an hour when they were really crippled by sanctions. Two intelligence reports, two wrong decisions. I hate to think what choice he'll make next.

> We're only now finding the corruption of the United Nations in Oil
> for Food. What a damn shame, the same group that drafted the
> Universal Declaration of Human Rights threatened vetoes
> because certain individuals cared more about filling their rich
> pockets than brining a nonviolent end to an evil dictator.

For a moment there, you sounded like Jack Chick. You have no idea how scary that is.

Also, 'non-violent'? Was it another Bush's failed plans for a 'non-violent' end to Saddam's dictatorship or did you actually expect the UN to do what he couldn't?

> There are terrorists who block the road to peace. When
> examining the government, your belief that all politicians
> and leaders are corrupt will do nothing for you. "Trust, but
> verify-- and don't be afraid to see what you see." Ronald
> Reagan said that, but I suppose he fits into your category
> of "incompetent men".

Doesn't trust actually mean you take someone on their word without verifying what they say, becuase you trust them? If so, you just quoted a contradiction in terms. Well done.

> Now we could debate the initial entrance of Iraq for days, and we
> have. It's time to look forward, flash. What are we going to do
> now? That's the real question.

Well I'm not presidential material and never said I was, so plans I come up with will probably have some holes in them.

That said, I think the best thing we can do is rebuild the country to a reasonable state (livable, but not perfect, we can't do everything for them), set up democratic elections (not rigged ones, fair ones, if they elect someone anti-American, so be it), make sure everything goes smoothly for a while, then get out of there.

It's hardly ideal, but I think a prolonged military force would just inflame the region further. After we leave, there will probably be in-fighting, possibly even wars. But we're not the global police force and we really don't have the right to be messing in other countries' buisiness unless they specifically ask us to.

> Ultimately you'll need to vote for somebody you trust more.

Do you seriously expect that to change anyone's vote? I think Flash has made it clear who he trusts more several times in the past.

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[IceWolf20]

> It's not exactly original thinking, though. You're edging
> with conspiracy when you suggest he's just trying to "finish
> what daddy couldn't do." The President made it so very clear
> that he didn't want to be a wartime president.

"I am a war president. When I wake up in the morning, I've got war on my mind..." - George W. Bush


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[Reaper man]

> "I am a war president. When I wake up in the morning, I've
> got war on my mind..." - George W. Bush


I don't think that quote is 100% correct, but what he really said delivers the same message

<a href=http://www.themilitant.com/2004/6807/680705.html>linkage</a>


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[Danoz]

Umm, sure-- now he's a wartime president. What does this have to do with anything I've said?

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[puduhead]

here here
well said
should have raided
korea instead

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[Fla Flash]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

here here
well said
should have raided
korea instead

<hr></blockquote>

What scares me is you may be right.


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[Danoz]

You'd prefer he had invaded a country with nuclear weapons? I can assure you, it would have been idiotic. North Korea didn't have multiple upon multiple failed resoultions and I fear the desperate retaliation of a Kim Jong Il. Peaceful actions first, flash. The only course of action with North Korea is international pressure, but the President was right not to trust North Korea with all the percieved progress that Clinton had.

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[IceWolf20]

> Umm, sure-- now he's a wartime president. What does this
> have to do with anything I've said?

My point being is that you said he said he didn't want to be a wartime president, and he is now.....and it is in my opinion that he brought it upon himself....war was entirely avoidable (in the case of Iraq, not Afghanistan)...but again, that's just what I and we differ on that opinion. He say's he didn't want to be a war president, and then he makes a statement like that....it just seems to me that he doesn't mind making our men and women in the armed forced kill thousands of people and lose "acceptable numbers" in the process. It may be a bit prude of me to think that he doesn't lose any sleep at night sending our troops to their death in an unjustified, and irrevocably damaging "war".....and I say "war" b/c "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended, and the United States and its allies are victorious" [sic].

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[acromion]

>The only course of action with North
> Korea is international pressure, but the President was right
> not to trust North Korea with all the percieved progress
> that Clinton had.

Never trust any country with a dead president. Or 'Great Leader', or whatever they call Kim Il-Sung.


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[Danoz]

> Never trust any country with a dead president. Or 'Great
> Leader', or whatever they call Kim Il-Sung.

They replaced the "Great Leader" fairly quickly and we greatly underestimated his son, Kim Jong Il. However, they still deify both of them. In fact, they have "crying rituals" where people are required to stare at pictures of Sung for hours.


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[Fla Flash]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

In fact, they have "crying rituals" where people are required to stare at pictures of Sung for hours.

<hr></blockquote>

That's like being forced to watch reruns of "Homeboys From Outer Space". I'd call it cruel and unusual punishment.
<img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

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