Death penality [Archive] - Zophar's Message Domain

Cornellius

10-12-2004, 10:22 PM

Good thing ? Bad thing ?

Discuss...

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'' What kind of freedom is bought with a gun ? '' - Bruce Dickinson

CEpeep

10-12-2004, 10:26 PM

> Good thing ? Bad thing ?
>
> Discuss...
>

Bad thing. No one deserves to die for a crime. The scary thing about it is Bush is totally for the death penalty. If God forgives, why can't he? <img src=smilies/laff.gif>

EDIT: Wrote "who" instead of "why." Crap.

<hr>
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-Eisenhower

Cornellius

10-12-2004, 10:31 PM

Mwahaha !

Actually, my worst fear is to kill someone who we THINK is guilty, but later find the evidence that he wasn't.

__________________________________________________ _______________

'' What kind of freedom is bought with a gun ? '' - Bruce Dickinson

Fla Flash

10-12-2004, 10:36 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

Actually, my worst fear is to kill someone who we THINK is
guilty, but later find the evidence that he wasn't.

<hr></blockquote>

My fears exactly, but....in this day of DNA Evidence, I firmly believe that Child Molesterers and Violent Rapists...well there is absolutely no defense for either of those crimes.
Fry 'em.

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IceWolf20

10-12-2004, 10:37 PM

> Good thing ? Bad thing ?
>
> Discuss...

I've always had mixed feelings about it. On one hand we have a system of "ultimate justice"--death for the death of another. Then this always goes back to the "eye for an eye" thing. Personally, I feel that the whole "punative justice" this country applies is completely reprehensible and it doesn't work. This is a proven fact...for the most part, prison doesn't prevent repeat offenses. Rather than really trying to fix something, we just put ppl in a hole for a few years, and let them out, angrier than before, and the repeat. The only reason we have this system is psychological...we feel better when we see someone being hurt when they've hurt us. Its basic psychology people. We don't want to "love thy neighbor" when our neighbor is stealing our stuff. So what do we do....rather than try to solve the problem through understanding and rehabilitation, we see them suffer by having to be some bad man's boyfriend. My point being is that, since the prision system is flawed, therefore, by assosciation, the death penatly is flawed.

But there is a divergence here....for serious crimes my "inner beast" wants to see the offender done to them exactly what they did....so if they raped and burned alive someone....guess what.....here comes the plunger and the kerosene. Once again it baffles my mind how someone (and people and general) claim to be so "Christian" and then be so punative to everyone around them. That's b/c there are very few people who uphold the values presented as such, but rather say they live by them, and continue living their lives as they always would....a "human" life. Until we can uphold these "values" that we all preach to have so many of (including our illustrious president), then we will have to have a punative system of justice....including the death penalty. Vengence is truly a deadly sin....for it does not solve anything, but only begets more violence and hatred and disillusionment in our socieity. We feed our own anger and, eventually our own demise, through our "justice". There is no justice, only vengence...and we all truly fall victim to the cyclic pattern of our own demise.

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thegodofhellfire

10-12-2004, 10:41 PM

> There is no justice, only vengence...and we all truly fall victim to
> the cyclic pattern of our own demise.

Excellent post - a fucking great big gold star to you.

SwampGas

10-12-2004, 11:04 PM

> Bad thing. No one deserves to die for a crime. The scary
> thing about it is Bush is totally for the death penalty. If
> God forgives, who can't he?

Exactly. Let Gd forgive them. Eye for an eye.

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Reaper man

10-13-2004, 12:44 AM

> Good thing ? Bad thing ?
>
> Discuss...

what about giving them life in a "real" prison? Not this soft bed, TV, good food BS, but like stone beds, and nothing else cept for bread and water. I see that as a fate worse than death

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Danoz

10-13-2004, 01:11 AM

> Good thing ? Bad thing ?

I don't like the way you word this. Who wants to say the death penality is a "good" thing. A better question is whether it's ethical or necessary, and I would say yes-- it is. When somebody commits a horrible crime they forfeit thier right to live in this society, they're well aware of this risk before they commit the crime.

Ultimately it's the criminal who injects the poison into thier own body. We have boundaries as a society in varying degrees. The rapists and child killers don't deserve another breath.

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MooglyGuy

10-13-2004, 01:16 AM

> When somebody commits a horrible crime they forfeit
> thier right to live in this society, they're well aware of
> this risk before they commit the crime.

True, but shouldn't this say to you that if they're well aware of the risk, then the risk is not a deterrant, and as such there's no point in it being used?

Cornellius

10-13-2004, 04:52 AM

> > Good thing ? Bad thing ?
> I don't like the way you word this.

Oh, but you can't think it's good AND bad at the same time cause you can't kill a guy AND let him live at the same time. That's the problem. That's why so much people can't come to an answer about these problems. It's inevitable, we must be either for OR against this.

__________________________________________________ _______________

'' What kind of freedom is bought with a gun ? '' - Bruce Dickinson

Danoz

10-13-2004, 05:18 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

Oh, but you can't think it's good AND bad at the same time cause you can't kill a guy AND let him live at the same time. That's the problem. That's why so much people can't come to an answer about these problems. It's inevitable, we must be either for OR against this.

<hr></blockquote>

Are you serious? Did you even read the rest of my post? I stated that I was most certainly for the death penality in certain cases, but I wouldn't call putting any person to death "good". I know a lot of people who believe in abortion-rights, but they would never call abortion a "good" thing. I feel the same way about the death penality. I posed to you a better question; try and understand what's being said before you reply with this kind of stupidity.

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Danoz

10-13-2004, 05:25 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

True, but shouldn't this say to you that if they're well aware of the risk, then the risk is not a deterrant, and as such there's no point in it being used?

<hr></blockquote>

Since when does any punishment deter a criminal intent on murder and vicious crimes? I only condone capital punishment to the worst kind of criminals with little or no hope of rehabilitation. We call it capital punishment for a reason, it's not capital deterrent. Most of the time I'll advocate a life sentence-- but I do believe death row serves as a necessary example of what happens to those who are defined only by their evil acts.

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Lenophis

10-13-2004, 05:27 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

I feel the same way about the death penality.

<hr></blockquote>
Hmm, interesting how this is a discussion about the death penality. What's more surprising is some boarders are using that same spelling mistake.

I'm sorry, but I had to throw that in there. But back to the topic, I support the death penalty, fully and completely. It's called justice people...

--Edit--
The punchline was also an attempt at humor.

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UncleOral

10-13-2004, 07:50 AM

> Exactly. Let Gd forgive them. Eye for an eye.

An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.

I think IceWolf said it best so far. It's hard to take a stand for or against the death penalty, just like abortion.

I'm not too familiar with how it works in the states (or anywhere for that matter, haven't read much about it), but the way I see it, the death penalty should not be applied to teenagers. And for adults to actually get it I'd say they would have to show absolutely no sign of ever rehabilitating and be a constant certain threat to society (and as IceWolf noted, since the rehabilitation system is inherently flawed, it's hard to advocate the most severe punishment it has).
This is, of course, extremely relative, but when it comes to taking someone's life I don't think there should be one strict set of rules you need to follow, it should be handled on a case-by-case basis, always.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm leaning towards allowing it, but it would need to be enforced very strictly. Killing off a 14 year old kid who murdered his parents in a fit of rage would be exactly what I wouldn't want it applied to.

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Fla Flash

10-13-2004, 11:20 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

Most of the time I'll advocate a life sentence-- but I do believe death row serves as a necessary example of what happens to those who are defined

<hr></blockquote>

You sound like my sixth grade school teacher. Make an example. That's ignorant thinking.
I know my response sounded like I'm pro-capital punishment, but I don't believe in playing god- deciding it's someone's time to die
But people that prey upon innocents (violent rapsists and child molesters) need to be dealt with. Either that or our fucking piece of shit judicial system, that I've seen let a convicted woman beater off time and time again, needs revamping.
We don't, as humans, have a right to judge others. That's no freakin' birthright or anything.
We do it cause we can.
Sometimes, what you can do, is the worst you can do.

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icenine0

10-13-2004, 04:14 PM

We need to develop some psychological VR system like the one in Ender's Game that completely reprograms a guys head by rewarding appropriate reactions to situations.

The more often you fail, the sweeter the taste of success!

Cornellius

10-13-2004, 04:32 PM

I read all your post without telling you were a stupid person, after reading your last post, I now think you are. Are you so close-minded that you think that everyone who don't think like you are stupid people ? YOU haven't read my post carefully. I haven't said : ''Yippie ! Let's kill him ! :) '' No, I said that it's a problem with which we HAVE to be either FOR or AGAINST. You can't kill a guy and let him live at the same time. It's a decision to be taken seriously and not only by one person. Since you haven't read carefully my other posts, I said that I was AGAINST the capitol punishment. The thing that make the decision difficult to take is the fact that you HAVE TO be either FOR or AGAINST, you can't be on the both side at the same time. That's why a lot of people don't know what to think about it. There.

__________________________________________________ _______________

'' What kind of freedom is bought with a gun ? '' - Bruce Dickinson Edited by Cornellius on 10/13/04 03:28 PM.

Danoz

10-13-2004, 08:44 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

I read all your post without telling you were a stupid person,

<hr></blockquote>
There's a fundamental difference between calling somebody stupid, and calling acts of ignorance what they are.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

after reading your last post, I now think you are. Are you so close-minded that you think that everyone who don't think like you are stupid people ?

<hr></blockquote>
What are you talking about? By the way, if you're going to insult me, try to compose a decent paragraph when you do it. I've been anything but close-minded on the issue, just because I disagree with you it doesn't make it that way. It's funny, because you're the one trying to make the topic so cut and dry. Goodness and necessity are not the same thing, but I'm starting to think you just don't understand me.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

YOU haven't read my post carefully.

<hr></blockquote>
What post? You said, "good or bad.. discuss"-- real insightful; you didn't give me anything to misunderstand. Your second post only responded to my first line, taking it completely out of context. In fact, let's look at you're reply;
Oh, but you can't think it's good AND bad at the same time cause you can't kill a guy AND let him live at the same time. That's the problem. That's why so much people can't come to an answer about these problems. It's inevitable, we must be either for OR against this.
First of all, I never said something could be "good and bad at the same time", excellent strawman fallacy there. I also clearly stated that I was an advocate of the death penalty in certain situations. Result? You're reply is totally incoherent.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

I haven't said : ''Yippie ! Let's kill him ! :) '' No, I said that it's a problem with which we HAVE to be either FOR or AGAINST. You can't kill a guy and let him live at the same time. It's a decision to be taken seriously and not only by one person. Since you haven't read carefully my other posts, I said that I was AGAINST the capitol punishment. The thing that make the decision difficult to take is the fact that you HAVE TO be either FOR or AGAINST, you can't be on the both side at the same time. That's why a lot of people don't know what to think about it. There.

<hr></blockquote>
Of course you can't "kill a guy and let him live at the same time", of course it's a "decision to be taken seriously and not only by one person." What does this have to do with my post? When was I trying to be on "both side at the same time"? This discussion is ridiculous, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

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Cornellius

10-13-2004, 08:49 PM

1- When I said if it was good or bad, I meant if you are for or against.
2- You're the first one to insult other people opinions.
3- My other posts on the forum, duh ! (Not only in this topic though, but in backroom)
4- I know what I meant. The fact that you don't agree with me doesn't mean that I'm wrong.

Hrm...

Look Danoz, I don't hate you. It's just the way you say things. Like, your post is ridiculous. These are stupid points. Etc. Arrogance is not the good way.

__________________________________________________ _______________

'' What kind of freedom is bought with a gun ? '' - Bruce Dickinson Edited by Cornellius on 10/13/04 04:59 PM.

Danoz

10-13-2004, 08:53 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

You sound like my sixth grade school teacher. Make an example. That's ignorant thinking.

<hr></blockquote>
It's only ignorant thinking if it's the only justification.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

I know my response sounded like I'm pro-capital punishment, but I don't believe in playing god- deciding it's someone's time to die But people that prey upon innocents (violent rapsists and child molesters) need to be dealt with.

<hr></blockquote>
I agree with you. That's what I mean by "example". Violent rapists and child molesters should be well aware of what will happen to them when they commit those horrible crimes.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

Either that or our fucking piece of shit judicial system, that I've seen let a convicted woman beater off time and time again, needs revamping. We don't, as humans, have a right to judge others. That's no freakin' birthright or anything. We do it cause we can. Sometimes, what you can do, is the worst you can do.

<hr></blockquote>
It's hardly a piece of shit. I'd liken it more to a diamond covered in shit. Our goal should be to wipe off the black layers that hinder the core intent of what our Judicial system is all about. "We'll raise up our glasses against evil forces, singin'-- whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses!"

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Danoz

10-13-2004, 09:14 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

1- When I said if it was good or bad, I meant if you are for or against.

<hr></blockquote>
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. This doesn't change the fact that I didn't like the wording. It's great that you know what you mean, but when you're trying to communicate something with others it becomes your responsibility to clarify. In the end, you only responded to that one part of my post and assumed I was trying to be on both sides at once because of it.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

2- You're the first one to insult other people opinions.

<hr></blockquote>
I didn't criticize your opinion on the death penalty. If you're against it, that's fine. I criticized how you responded to my reply.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

3- My other posts on the forum, duh ! (Not only in this topic though, but in backroom)

<hr></blockquote>
This has nothing to do with anything I said in the 3rd section. Maybe you should use quotes so you don't get confused.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

4- I know what I meant. The fact that you don't agree with me doesn't mean that I'm wrong.

<hr></blockquote>
That's nice that you know what you meant, but once again, when you communicate with others in any forum (especially one of an argumentative nature) you have to properly convey that meaning and respond to other people's posts in full. I hate to shut down your replies like this, but you're not making any sense. Please note, I have absolutely no problem with what you believe about the death penalty. In fact, I respect it.-- but you're arguments just don't follow.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

Look Danoz, I don't hate you. It's just the way you say things. Like, your post is ridiculous. These are stupid points. Etc. Arrogance is not the good way.

<hr></blockquote>
You're only viewing it as arrogance because you fail to understand that it's not you viewpoint I'm attacking, it's what you're responding to and how you're responding to it. For instance, your first reply was only directed to the first sentence of my post. I have to assume you completely neglected to read the rest of it, which of course is irritating. I called the discussion ridiculous, because we're not even talking about the death penalty anymore. The entire debate, for me, has become trying to figure out what you're talking about. And no, I don't hate anybody here, but I do try my best to really get to the core of every disagreement.

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punjman

10-14-2004, 01:27 AM

Eye for an Eye. that's how it should be.

PUNJ!
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Cornellius

10-14-2004, 01:38 AM

> Eye for an Eye. that's how it should be.

Maybe, but we have to be SURE that we arrested the GOOD PERSON. I don't know how I would feel if they killed someone I know and later realise he was innocent.

<PID="signature">__________________________________________________ _______________

'' What kind of freedom is bought with a gun ? '' - Bruce Dickinson Edited by Cornellius on 10/13/04 09:40 PM.

king killa

10-14-2004, 01:50 AM

> Eye for an Eye. that's how it should be.
>

agreed. 100%

king killa

10-14-2004, 01:52 AM

> Good thing ? Bad thing ?
>
> Discuss...
>

if they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a person is guilty of murder, then that person should be killed. But instead, we give them the best home they have probably had for a long time, a heated jail cell with food served daily.

SpaceTiger

10-14-2004, 03:09 AM

> Good thing ? Bad thing ?

The death penalty is a barbaric practice that should have been done away with years ago. I think it's pathetic (and hypocritical) that people can find no other way to deal with their anger and frustration than to commit murder.

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