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king killa
10-10-2004, 12:06 AM
Michael Badnarik, libertarian party.

if you havn't heard of him, look him up on google. If you have heard of him, discuss why he should or should not be the man we ALL vote for.

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SwampGas
10-10-2004, 12:28 AM
> if you havn't heard of him, look him up on google. If you
> have heard of him, discuss why he should or should not be
> the man we ALL vote for.

He's a freaking IDIOT?

1) He was arrested for civil disobedience at the debates. I don't want a man like this in office....he had clear instructions on how a debate works. He broke the rules anyway to try and cause a stink and get attention...it had NOTHING to do with the true meaning behind civil disobedience. I'm glad CNN is refusing to give him any press.

2) He has not held political office before. No one voted him in for anything. He lost. Bush was a governor. Kerry was a senator. They know how the system works and people liked them in the past. No one liked Badnarik.

BUSH '04

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Danoz
10-10-2004, 12:33 AM
I don't even have to look him up to know that I'm not a libertarian. Libertarians have specific views about how government should be run, I just don't agree.

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king killa
10-10-2004, 02:46 AM
> I don't even have to look him up to know that I'm not a
> libertarian. Libertarians have specific views about how
> government should be run, I just don't agree.
>

Ok, so you agree with Democrats and Republicans stand point with the government, you know the stand points where they take away our rights everyday, and go against the constitution everyday.

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king killa
10-10-2004, 02:55 AM
So, you don't love your guns as much as it may seem?

http://www.issues2000.org/Celeb/Libertarian_Party_Gun_Control.htm
http://www.issues2000.org/Celeb/George_W__Bush_Gun_Control.htm

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MooglyGuy
10-10-2004, 05:19 AM
> Ok, so you agree with Democrats and Republicans stand point
> with the government, you know the stand points where they
> take away our rights everyday, and go against the
> constitution everyday.

Right, and the libertarians are all for universal rights, and will never take away anyones' rights, and are the saviors for everyone. You're living in a fantasy world, buddy. By the way, if you want to make anything remotely like a sound argument, you're going to have to do better than parroting the same disestablishmentarian drivel that so many libertarians seem to spout constantly without any kind of backup whatsoever. You're the one who seems to be kneeling between the legs of Badnik, so it's your job as the person who started this topic to provide arguments as to why we should vote for him, not just tell us to search for him ourselves. That's not the way a debate works. To touch upon your obvious fellation of the libertarian party, this entire thread is bull, because in your original post you said that we should discuss whether or not people should vote for him, then when people state their views, you scream and yell at them and say that their views are wrong, and that the democrats and republicans take away rights and so on and so forth. Way to win support. I may not like stereotypical republicans and stereotypical democrats, but my god, if you're representative of a typical libertarian then I don't like stereotypical libertarians either.

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MooglyGuy
10-10-2004, 05:25 AM
First you say to discuss whether or not he should be voted for, implying impartiality, then all you do when someone disagrees with your views that you intentionally failed to espouse in the original post is put words into their mouths, parrot the same tired libertarian rhetoric, and accuse people who disagree with you of being morons in so many words. I hope to god you get banned for trolling, because nobody needs to see crap topics like this, and nobody wants to have a civil debate carrot hung in front of them on a stick, then get beaten with the stick. <img src=smilies/flipa.gif>

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Gavin_86
10-10-2004, 06:12 AM
> I don't even have to look him up to know that I'm not a
> libertarian. Libertarians have specific views about how
> government should be run, I just don't agree.

way to be open minded Danoz <img src=smilies/cwm10.gif>. But honestly, am i suprised? no <img src=smilies/upeyes.gif>

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Danoz
10-10-2004, 06:25 AM
> way to be open minded Danoz . But honestly, am i suprised?
> no

Whatever. Don't talk to me like I don't understand libertarianism enough to disagree with it.


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SwampGas
10-10-2004, 07:26 AM
I expected nothing less from him. The difference between me and the rest of the bunch of that I just don't care to respond to his nonsense <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

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Lobster Cowboy
10-10-2004, 08:04 AM
> Michael Badnarik, libertarian party.

i know a lot about him. he teaches a very enlightening class on the US Constitution.

that said, libertarianism, while i support its principles very strongly, i also understand that it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to work in the real world.

for example, libertarianism says that people can decide for themselves what's right and wrong for their lives. well, this doesn't take into account how STUPID most people are. i mean, most people are clincally retarded. just plain numbskulls. maybe some people NEED the gov't to make decisions for their dumb asses.

libertarianism is like socialism; wonderful on paper, but totally impractical for real life applications

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king killa
10-10-2004, 11:11 AM
> you're going to have to do better
> than parroting the same disestablishmentarian drivel that so
> many libertarians seem to spout constantly without any kind
> of backup whatsoever.

Whatch Badnarik's 7-8 hour long constitution class, plenty of backup in there.

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king killa
10-10-2004, 11:13 AM
Right, but as I am sure you have heard him say in one of his classes.. it doesn't matter if he wins or not. As long as the winning democrat/republican knows people like his views, they will try to be more like that party.. if everyone votes for them, they won't change.

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SpaceTiger
10-10-2004, 01:27 PM
> if you havn't heard of him, look him up on google. If you
> have heard of him, discuss why he should or should not be
> the man we ALL vote for.

My general impression is similar to Lobster's, but I'm willing to listen to arguments to the contrary. It would be much better for all involved if you wrote a synopsis of your opinion on the subject rather than making us search google. If you're not sure where to start, I suggest reading one of Danoz's posts (note: just his initial posts, not his responses). Despite our disagreements, I think he does that sort of thing very well.

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king killa
10-10-2004, 02:04 PM
Ok, here are some of the standpoints of the libertarian party.

Crime and Violence:
They feel that the victim's rights are more important than anything else.
They plan to end prohibition, which will end a lot of crime.
They feel that if a violent crime is commited against someone, then the offender violated their rights, and should have much worse punishment then they have now.
They feel self defense rights need to be protected.

Legalization of Drugs:
As we learned in the 1920s, prohibition acts cause more crime. With drugs being illegal, there is organized crime, and murders every day.
There are drug lords that are scum-bags that have millions of dollars because of the business they are in.
If drugs were legal, people wouldn't be killed for them. Drug-lords wouldn't be making all the money, legitimate businesses would.

Income Tax:
Income Tax goes against everything in the constitution. The government is stealing your money, and using it for illegal purposes.
The governement spends millions of dollars each day, and we are the ones paying for it.

Freedom of Speech:
the Libertarian Party is against cencorship. Parents are responsible for what their kids can see. The government has no right censoring anything.

Gun Laws:
One of our rights is the right to bare arms. Right now you need a gun permit. In other words, you have to ASK PERMISSION TO EXPRESS ONE OF YOUR RIGHTS. This is a conflict of terms. To have the right to do something means you are able to do it without asking, and without being hassled about it.

Immigration:
They feel that everyone has a right to become part of this nation, but they do not have a right to welfare. The freedom to immigrate is a freedom of opportunity, not a guarantee of a handout.

For more information, visit http://www.lp.org/issues/

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icenine0
10-10-2004, 05:19 PM
Well, for one thing, the name's gotta go. "Badnarik" keeps making me think of that guy from the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show. He should change it to something like "Max Powers" or "Captain Presidentman" or something.

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SpaceTiger
10-10-2004, 07:14 PM
> They feel that the victim's rights are more important than
> anything else.

It's not clear to me what you're saying here, you'll have to be more specific. Most of the legal process concerns establishing the innocence or guilt of the accused and the victim's rights aren't really an issue for most of that.


> They plan to end prohibition, which will end a lot of crime.

Although I'm not sure it would be better in the long run, I suspect that it would be. It's something that I think would be worth trying, at least.


> They feel that if a violent crime is commited against
> someone, then the offender violated their rights, and should
> have much worse punishment then they have now.

You'll have to be more specific on when and why you think the punishments should be harsher. In general, I feel that the legal process should be focused more on protecting society rather than reaping revenge upon criminals. If harsher punishments serve the greater good, then I will often support them.

Also, I do think that criminals, however violent, have rights and should be subject to certain legal protections. Even if we're sure that someone is guilty, that doesn't mean that we have the right to kill them.


> They feel self defense rights need to be protected.

Again, I need specifics.


> Income Tax goes against everything in the constitution. The
> government is stealing your money, and using it for illegal
> purposes.

Which illegal purposes are these? Why is it against the constitution? In fact, why is the constitution the final say on what our rights should be?


> The governement spends millions of dollars each day, and we
> are the ones paying for it.

Who else would?


> the Libertarian Party is against cencorship. Parents are
> responsible for what their kids can see. The government has
> no right censoring anything.

I agree with this for the most part, but I'm sure there are reasonable exceptions. There always are.


> One of our rights is the right to bare arms. Right now you
> need a gun permit. In other words, you have to ASK
> PERMISSION TO EXPRESS ONE OF YOUR RIGHTS.

Some people believe that it shouldn't be your right, so this is just begging the question.


> They feel that everyone has a right to become part of this
> nation, but they do not have a right to welfare. The freedom
> to immigrate is a freedom of opportunity, not a guarantee of
> a handout.

I haven't formed a strong opinion on this, so I won't comment. I generally support people's rights to immigrate to this country, but I don't have strong feelings about welfare.

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Danoz
10-10-2004, 07:15 PM
http://badnarik.org/
You couldn't have linked us? <img src=smilies/cwm11.gif>
I think all these significant 3rd party candidates deserve to be on the ballot. I wouldn't necessarily vote for them, but I'd like to see that option available... I also support a "none-of-the-above" option for people demanding new candidates. The lack of choices we give the American people in our elections is ridiculous, and it's irresponsible to think you can fit millions of Americans into two polarized party systems.

I think Badnarik's "What is a libertarian?" section is excellent, but I don't think he was making much a point by getting arrested-- only because I think his cause is a little awkward. He wants to be included in the debates, right? Including candidates representing very small parties would be a distraction in this particular election. A cure? Give the 3rd party debates some real press. I'd find them more interesting to watch than the latest celebrity affair.

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Danoz
10-10-2004, 07:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Ok, so you agree with Democrats and Republicans stand point with the government, you know the stand points where they take away our rights everyday, and go against the constitution everyday.

<hr></blockquote>

There's a social contract, where people give certain rights in exchange for protection. The government has the right to do whatever is "necessary and proper". The idea that Republicans and Democrats “take away rights everyday” is nothing more than a different interpretation. Sure, libertarians have some great ideas (less restriction on religious icons, for one. That people have more a freedom “to” than they do freedom “from”, is more in line with my opinion than liberalism is.) But ultimately, I don’t like the overall goal of a truly libertarian society.

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mrfreeze
10-10-2004, 08:34 PM
<img src=smilies/werd.gif> Holy crap man, for once you make complete and total sense.

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king killa
10-10-2004, 09:41 PM
>
> Holy crap man, for once you make complete and total sense.
>

agreed

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king killa
10-10-2004, 09:49 PM
Specifics on rights of the victims:
While you are on vacation, if someone breaks into your house and trips into a glass aquarium, cuttion himself severely, he can sue you. Libertarians think this is a bunch of crap, as should all of you.

The constitution ISN'T the final say of our rights, but the constitution states what the government can and cannot do, and they are breaking the rules, without our permission.

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SpaceTiger
10-10-2004, 10:22 PM
> While you are on vacation, if someone breaks into your house
> and trips into a glass aquarium, cuttion himself severely,
> he can sue you. Libertarians think this is a bunch of crap,
> as should all of you.

Although I agree with you that it's a bunch of crap, I really abhor anyone telling me what I should and shouldn't think. It just reeks of absolutism.


> The constitution ISN'T the final say of our rights, but the
> constitution states what the government can and cannot do,
> and they are breaking the rules, without our permission.

Interpreting the constitution can often be as difficult (or, rather, as ambiguous) as interpreting the Bible. Just because you think something violates it doesn't mean that somebody else will.

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king killa
10-10-2004, 11:04 PM
I'm not telling you what you should or should not think. I'm just saying that anyone who thinks the criminal should be able to sue is an idiot.

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king killa
10-11-2004, 01:39 AM
here is a little 2 question test I made with flash in my spare time..
http://www.neohjuggalos.com/vote.html

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SpaceTiger
10-11-2004, 01:53 AM
> I'm not telling you what you should or should not think. I'm
> just saying that anyone who thinks the criminal should be
> able to sue is an idiot.

In general, it's foolish to assume such things until you've heard their reasons.

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king killa
10-11-2004, 01:57 AM
In general yes.. but come on. for this peticular situation?

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Danoz
10-11-2004, 02:10 AM
> here is a little 2 question test I made with flash in my
> spare time..
> http://www.neohjuggalos.com/vote.html

I'm not sure what you're getting at with it. I actually answered "republic" to the first question because it was obvious what you were doing. Yes, we DO live in a republic. All that means is that we elect people to make decisions for us. Are you saying that you (and other libertarians) support some kind of majoritarian model of democracy? Yes, we live in a Representative Democracy... I don't remember being lied to about this ;). You're going to need more than 2 questions if you want to make a significant point. The car question didn't seem relevent. Right now, my car sits in my drive way. I could drive it to Canada or the store, I could even take a bat to my windshield and light it on fire (The thought HAS crossed my mind). It's mine.

If you really want to persuade people to vote libertarian, you need to do it in a way that educates a person on what libertarianism is, and then why they should believe it. More importantly, why it would be better than the current system.

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Danoz
10-11-2004, 02:14 AM
> In general yes.. but come on. for this peticular situation?

Can I buy some pot from you?


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puduhead
10-11-2004, 03:59 AM
> > In general yes.. but come on. for this peticular
> situation?
>
> Can I buy some pot from you?

No it's illegal (possibly because the government deams it immoral and self-destructive or they just have a profit to be made from denying legal use) unless you have a prescription.

but alcohol's fine! <img src=smilies/upeyes.gif>

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puduhead
10-11-2004, 04:29 AM
> for example, libertarianism says that people can decide for
> themselves what's right and wrong for their lives. well,
> this doesn't take into account how STUPID most people are.
> i mean, most people are clincally retarded. just plain
> numbskulls. maybe some people NEED the gov't to make
> decisions for their dumb asses.

which in turn forces their decisions on the smart people. maybe if we had a government system for intelligent people we could weed out the dumbasses via natural selection. if it's good for nature, it's good for me.

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king killa
10-11-2004, 10:56 AM
> I'm not sure what you're getting at with it. I actually
> answered "republic" to the first question because it was
obvious what you were doing. Yes, we DO live in a republic.
All that means is that we elect people to make decisions for
us. Are you saying that you (and other libertarians) support
> some kind of majoritarian model of democracy? Yes, we live
> in a Representative Democracy... I don't remember being lied
> to about this ;).

Oh come on. When is the last time you ever heard "we live in a republic" on TV? They aways shove the democracy thing down our throats and never say a word about this being a republic.

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king killa
10-11-2004, 10:57 AM
> Can I buy some pot from you?
>

Only if it becomes legal. (vote libertarian!) <img src=smilies/laff.gif>

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Kuikorosu
10-11-2004, 02:39 PM
> http://www.neohjuggalos.com/vote.html

Dawg, da ICP sez u shud voet 4 librarians yo, they down wit da clown.


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king killa
10-11-2004, 11:25 PM
> Dawg, da ICP sez u shud voet 4 librarians yo, they down wit
> da clown.
>

Ok ass. I own neohjuggalos.com. I didn't put it there because it was juggalo related, I put it there because it is my site. This discussion has nothing to do with ICP.

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Lobster Cowboy
10-11-2004, 11:59 PM
> Ok ass. I own neohjuggalos.com. I didn't put it there
> because it was juggalo related, I put it there because it is
> my site. This discussion has nothing to do with ICP.

ye can dish, but ye can't take

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king killa
10-12-2004, 01:27 AM
> ye can dish, but ye can't take
>

When I dish, I have a reason to. There was no reason to bring ICP into the discussion.

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SwampGas
10-12-2004, 01:31 AM
> When I dish, I have a reason to. There was no reason to
> bring ICP into the discussion.

YOUZE DA KING KILLA BIG WHEELA CAP PEELA. YOU ALL UP IN DIS MOTHERFUCKA.


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king killa
10-12-2004, 02:33 AM
> YOUZE DA KING KILLA BIG WHEELA CAP PEELA. YOU ALL UP IN DIS
> MOTHERFUCKA.
>

They didn't know that we was gang bangin' up in this motha fucka, but they don't know about me and my click, dawg.

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SwampGas
10-12-2004, 02:45 AM
> They didn't know that we was gang bangin' up in this motha
> fucka, but they don't know about me and my click, dawg.

Aw, shit I got yearbook <img src=smilies/cwm10.gif>

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king killa
10-12-2004, 03:33 AM
> Aw, shit I got yearbook
>

I hope he doesn't get grounded.
Yea, cause then we couldn't be gang bangers.

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icenine0
10-12-2004, 05:39 AM
Looking over Badnarik's policies, I think he puts WAYYY too much faith in corporations. His views seem sort of Ayn Randish. Remove all of the restrictions, deregulate, and the free market will take care of things. Here's an actual quote: "All you need to know about economics is the law of supply and demand."

Well, that's a nice idea until vicious, fat corporations and virtual monopolies take hold. Consider Microsoft: if there were no restrictions on its activities, it wouldn't matter if someone made a better web browser. XP could just disable it with the latest Windows Update. Or look at pharmaceutical companies, grossing millions by peddling you junk over the TV that seems as likely to cure your ailments as <A RHEF="http://www.vioxx.com/">double your risk of heart disease</A> when next year's studies come out.

The unfortunate fact is, in any industry, the people concerned with making good products make good products, and the people concerned with making good money make good money. That's why RIAA execs are filthy rich and many of its best artists make zilch. That's why video game developers get paid $60,000 a year while their publishers retain all the intellectual property and billions of dollars. History repeats itself because founding artisans or engineers of a company often take their cash and jump the tedious managerial ship when things get too unwieldly, leaving their position to money grubbing bastards who invent demand instead of creating it.

Ah, okay, that's all kind of tangential. But the bottom line is, if you leave things up to the corporations, you're leaving things to people who care about nothing but money. Bad idea. At least politicians have an interest in being reelected.

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IceWolf20
10-12-2004, 05:03 PM
> > Aw, shit I got yearbook

> I hope he doesn't get grounded.
> Yea, cause then we couldn't be gang bangers.

VOODOO....RUNNIN WITH MUH MAJIK!!!

Sorry, couldn't let an ICP reference go unyielded.

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king killa
10-13-2004, 02:52 AM
> VOODOO....RUNNIN WITH MUH MAJIK!!!

Ray kay shay, Shooga booga ba, Southwest Voodoo's in the house!

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SwampGas
10-13-2004, 04:25 AM
> Ray kay shay, Shooga booga ba, Southwest Voodoo's in the
> house!

WICKED VOODOO DOPED UP KILLA


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IceWolf20
10-13-2004, 01:28 PM
> > Ray kay shay, Shooga booga ba, Southwest Voodoo's in the
> > house!
>
> WICKED VOODOO DOPED UP KILLA

MAGIC, DARK MAGIC...YO!

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king killa
10-13-2004, 11:33 PM
> > WICKED VOODOO DOPED UP KILLA
>
> MAGIC, DARK MAGIC...YO!
>

Met this kid named Louie Lou,

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SwampGas
10-13-2004, 11:36 PM
> > > WICKED VOODOO DOPED UP KILLA
> >
> > MAGIC, DARK MAGIC...YO!
> >
>
> Met this kid named Louie Lou,

Who thought he could fuck with this voodoo.

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king killa
10-13-2004, 11:55 PM
> > Met this kid named Louie Lou,
>
> Who thought he could fuck with this voodoo.
>

So I turned his head into a lima bean and then flicked it off his shoulders.

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IceWolf20
10-14-2004, 12:27 AM
> So I turned his head into a lima bean and then flicked it
> off his shoulders.

From Mookan House to Shangra La

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king killa
10-14-2004, 12:50 AM
> From Mookan House to Shangra La
>

Egyptian pharohs, kumpa to.

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SwampGas
10-14-2004, 12:51 AM
> Egyptian pharohs, kumpa to.

Follow me...and join us as we pray,

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king killa
10-14-2004, 01:03 AM
> > Egyptian pharohs, kumpa to.
>
> Follow me...and join us as we pray,
>

to the seventeen moons of koonga delray.

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IceWolf20
10-14-2004, 02:45 AM
> > Follow me...and join us as we pray,
>
> to the seventeen moons of koonga delray.

Walked in the lunchroom chantin' spells


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king killa
10-14-2004, 02:47 AM
> Walked in the lunchroom chantin' spells
>

With bamboo bitches and voodoo bells

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IceWolf20
10-14-2004, 02:54 AM
> > Walked in the lunchroom chantin' spells
> >
>
> With bamboo bitches and voodoo bells

Got my own food, who wants some?

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king killa
10-14-2004, 02:55 AM
> Got my own food, who wants some?
>

I got possum nipples and raccoon tongue.

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IceWolf20
10-14-2004, 03:12 AM
> > Got my own food, who wants some?
> >
>
> I got possum nipples and raccoon tongue.
>

A non-believer once started to laugh

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...the way to be!</div></P>