"f President Bush is Elected...

[Danoz]

Resolved: If President Bush is Elected, would it worsen world opinion of the United States?"

I have to argue in defense of this tomorrow in an informal debate with another person in my political argumentation class. Any ideas on how to tackle this? I've got a few myself, I'm interested in getting the opinion of the people I fight with most often <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

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[mFC]

Moderator: You may go, Danoz.
Danoz: Yes, it will.
::end::

Chris

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[Canar]

> I have to argue in defense of this tomorrow in an informal
> debate with another person in my political argumentation
> class. Any ideas on how to tackle this? I've got a few
> myself, I'm interested in getting the opinion of the people
> I fight with most often

Canadians (well, all the ones i know anyhow) think very poorly of Bush. He has all but ignored us, despite the fact that we've done all we can to help him. Although we couldn't openly ignore the fact that the US was violating UN policy by going ahead with the Iraq thing, there were Canadian soldiers assisting. We've continually rolled over and ignored how the US has sleighted us, but popular opinion's turning. Beef bans, softwood lumber disputes, etc. Not good.

Anyhow, Kerry might make things more amiable. I liked the US more when Clinton was in office.


<P ID="signature"><center><a href='http://canar.no-ip.com'>http://canar.no-ip.com/teng_title.png
</a>http://www-e.uni-magdeburg.de/drobek/lysergion.zipListen to my DJ mix</a></center></P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Canar on 09/17/04 12:20 AM.</FONT></P>

[Danoz]

Haha, you're killin me. I know this is a tough defense, but I've got a few ideas at how to attack it.

First off, "world" must be defined. The US is a super power, and as such, every move will be under extra scrutiny by the outside world. His reelection would ensure a follow through of policy already started, and a true continuation on the path set-- seeing it through wouldn't be likely to "worsen" world opinion more than it would keep it where it's at or make it slightly better. (You don’t have to tell me it’s anorexic. But if I can give reasonable evidence that his reelection wouldn’t necessarily make things worse overseas, bam… I win.)

Second it seems a severe lack of fairness has be given to the allies supporting us in the war on terror. Apart from countries like France and Germany (who were possibly protecting interests when so harshly going against the United States) the support from those advocating our position has been deemed as "coerced", insulting the intelligence of the people who continue to support our cause. They cannot be left out of the definition of "world".

I'll keep it going. It's an informal debate and I know it's thin, but it's got potential-- depending on the affirmative. Personally, I'd have actually found it easier to argue the other side (Hell, Europe and Canada for example have so much anti-American sentiment right now it's frightening).




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[Lillymon]

> His reelection would ensure a follow through of policy already
> started, and a true continuation on the path set-- seeing it through
> wouldn't be likely to "worsen" world opinion more than it would
> keep it where it's at or make it slightly better.

No, taking what the world currently hates about George W. Bush to extremes would worsen world opinion. World opinion of George W. Bush hasn't hit rock bottom yet, but another four years would probably redefine the meaning of the phrase.

> (You don’t have to tell me it’s anorexic. But if I can give
> reasonable evidence that his reelection wouldn’t necessarily
> make things worse overseas, bam… I win.)

If you could give that hypothetical evidence, yes, you would win. But I don't seriously think there's any way you could actually do that. Because:

1) You live in the US, not overseas.
2) You don't want to see contradictory evidence.
3) Your whole argument is based on a mixture of sand and bullshit.

> (Hell, Europe and Canada for example have so much
> anti-American sentiment right now it's frightening).

You need to realize that the sentiment isn't 'anti-American'. Only extremists and mentalists hate the US as a whole. Most of us just hate the current Bush administration.

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[thegodofhellfire]

> You need to realize that the sentiment isn't
> 'anti-American'. Only extremists and mentalists hate the US
> as a whole. Most of us just hate the current Bush
> administration.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Though if you guys re-elect him, we'll hold you equally responsible. And that's the crux of it - remember that your question isn't about the Bush administration, it's about the US generally. The world can probably accept the concept of his presidency being a horrible anomoly, but it will surely find it more difficult to accept a ratification from the public at large.

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[Fla Flash]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Though if you guys re-elect him,
we'll hold you equally responsible.

<hr></blockquote>


Exactly why I'm voting for Ash.

<P ID="signature"><img src=http://www.freewebs.com/mewscorner/mean.png>
Symbiosis..just when you thought the woods were safe... (http://www.freewebs.com/mewscorner/)</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Fla Flash on 09/17/04 07:00 AM.</FONT></P>

[Danoz]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

You need to realize that the sentiment isn't 'anti-American'. Only extremists and mentalists hate the US as a whole. Most of us just hate the current Bush administration.

<hr></blockquote>

But does the world really find Kerry so much better? From my experiences online talking to people from around the world, the general thought is that Bush is a warmongering, simple-minded liar-- none of which have any real standing in any kind of debate.

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[Danoz]

Why? Most Americans couldn't possibly share in the same hatred you have for President Bush. After all, general opinion overseas is that America has been partially brainwashed by Fox News, and most voting for him, genuinly believe him the be the best option for the USA. You already know that some 50 percent of Americans support the Bush Administration-- I can guaruntee you 50 percent of us would still be Republicans if Kerry were elected. Wouldn't your real feelings be more directed at the President and not the United States as a whole?

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[thegodofhellfire]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Why? Most Americans couldn't possibly share in the same hatred you have for President Bush. After all, general opinion overseas is that America has been partially brainwashed by Fox News, and most voting for him, genuinly believe him the be the best option for the USA. You already know that some 50 percent of Americans support the Bush Administration-- I can guaruntee you 50 percent of us would still be Republicans if Kerry were elected. Wouldn't your real feelings be more directed at the President and not the United States as a whole?

<hr></blockquote>

No, if the US electorate as a collective return GW to office, then the world wouldn't really care about percentages. If the administration can carry out these policies, and still be supported by a majority, then the world would regard the people generally as complicit in its activities. It's a perfectly reasonable conclusion.

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[Cornellius]

No testicles.

<P ID="signature">__________________________________________________ _______________

'' What kind of freedom is bought with a gun ? '' - Bruce Dickinson </P>

[WhyteKnight]

Man I think you picked the shit end of this debate. When you say world opinion about the US though, do you mean the US citizenry, the US government, or what? Most people outside the US are only exposed to our government and the affluent dumbshits in bermuda shorts who go to their countries and act superior and if you're talking about US people then there's a chance the world's opinion is based upon these two factors - a bull-headed government and well to do travelers that think they're the cats pyjamas. Who wouldn't get a bad opinion of American people from that? I actually recall talking to one person from another country who genuinely thought that everyone in america had a big house with a white picket fence and an american flag in the front yard. And if you mean US government, I think the way the current administration has ignored a large part of popular world opinion and flouted the idea of working through the more equilateral channels like the UN has sort of axed a lot of potential good feelings. But. If you can get the opinions of some people from other countries in support of the shrub - regular you and me type people - that could give you some ground for an argument.

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[Danoz]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Man I think you picked the shit end of this debate.

<hr></blockquote>
Well, the debate didn't go too bad overall. In the end I just proved that the affirmative viewpoint ultimately couldn't know whether or not the world opinion would change for the worse. I also worked on the talking point that not fighting terrorism would ultimately worse on public view of America in the long run. The advocate of the topic got a little off topic, also-- comparing Bush to Hilter ect. I was able to attack that once the focus was shifted.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

When you say world opinion about the US though, do you mean the US citizenry, the US government, or what?

<hr></blockquote>
Yea, we agreed at the end that the proposition was poorly worded. In fact, the next debate has it changed. It's better. I know this because I wrote it ;). It goes: "Resolved: That the current level of anti-American sentiment existing today is justified." Of course, I'm arguing against the resolution and I think it helps shift the debate more fairly in my direction. I don't have to make speculations on "what might" end up happening.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Most people outside the US are only exposed to our government and the affluent dumbshits in bermuda shorts who go to their countries and act superior and if you're talking about US people then there's a chance the world's opinion is based upon these two factors - a bull-headed government and well to do travelers that think they're the cats pyjamas. Who wouldn't get a bad opinion of American people from that? I actually recall talking to one person from another country who genuinely thought that everyone in america had a big house with a white picket fence and an american flag in the front yard.

<hr></blockquote>
When I was in England somebody told me the exact same thing. I'm not sure what's necessarily wrong with that. What do you think of my significant changes to the proposition's wording?

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[IceWolf20]

> When I was in England somebody told me the exact same thing.
> I'm not sure what's necessarily wrong with that. What do you
> think of my significant changes to the proposition's
> wording?

I guess it depends on what part of the world you're from....someone I knew had moved from Turkey, and their family was terrified for them b/c they were afraid that all Americans were gun toting psychos and that they would all be murdered just walking down the street. It seems as if any one little aspect of our society can be blown out of proportion depending on who does the telling.

But then again....we are a bit psychotic aren't we <img src=smilies/retard.gif>

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...the way to be!</div></P>

[Fla Flash]

Isn't there supposed to be either an "i" in front of that f or a uck after it?<img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

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Symbiosis..just when you thought the woods were safe... (http://www.freewebs.com/mewscorner/)</P>

[mrfreeze]

It seems as if any
> one little aspect of our society can be blown out of
> proportion depending on who does the telling.

In Japan it is a common stereotype that all Americans carry guns and will pull one out at the slightest provocation. Go figure.

<P ID="signature">Are you doing nothing? Or something?</P>

[Lillymon]

> But does the world really find Kerry so much better?

Yep.

> From my experiences online talking to people from around the
> world, the general thought is that Bush is a warmongering,
> simple-minded liar-- none of which have any real standing in
> any kind of debate.

Why not? I think it's true, you clearly think it's false, I'd say we have the basics for a debate there.

Also, although most of the attention has been focused on Bush himself, his administration are hardly loved the the world either.

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[Lillymon]

> Well, the debate didn't go too bad overall. In the end I
> just proved that the affirmative viewpoint ultimately
> couldn't know whether or not the world opinion would change
> for the worse.

You proved people couldn't predict the future with 100% accuracy. Whoop-de-fricking-doo.

> The advocate of the topic got a little off topic, also-- comparing
> Bush to Hilter ect. I was able to attack that once the focus was
> shifted.

"Same shit, different asshole."

I saw that in a picture once with a picture of Hitler on one side and Bush on the other. I wouldn't try to argue that Bush is the new Hitler (Hitler was a far better public speaker for a start), but I still hate the guy.

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[WhyteKnight]

> When I was in England somebody told me the exact same thing.
> I'm not sure what's necessarily wrong with that.

Wrong with the idea of it or wrong that it would be a bad thing? It certainly points to people having sort of skewed notions of the american lifestyle to be sure. Granted, we don't all suck, but it certainly seems to me that a large majority of the ones big enough to be noticed are pretty shitty examples.

> What do you think of my significant changes to the proposition's
> wording?

It tends to make a bit more sense now and is certainly more specific.


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[Danoz]

> In Japan it is a common stereotype that all Americans carry
> guns and will pull one out at the slightest provocation. Go
> figure.

I don't think that's ture on any mass level. In my experiance, the Japanese have a very high opinion of American people. In fact, in the same way we find Japanese symbols and cultures so interesting, they find American words and such equally as captivating.


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[maq112k2]

> I don't think that's ture on any mass level. In my
> experiance, the Japanese have a very high opinion of
> American people. In fact, in the same way we find Japanese
> symbols and cultures so interesting, they find American
> words and such equally as captivating.

But what about us and guns?


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[Danoz]

> But what about us and guns?

Who knows? I know that many Americans picture all oriental people as knowing marial arts and having deep family roots. Most often it's a countries representation in movies that creates the most common stereotypical ideas.


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[king killa]

Nice Try

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[Cornellius]

I know, but I still hate Bush. If I were an American, I think I would be a Democrat.

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'' What kind of freedom is bought with a gun ? '' - Bruce Dickinson </P>

[WhyteKnight]

> I know, but I still hate Bush. If I were an American, I
> think I would be a Democrat.
>
Political parties are stupid and shitty, but that's another rant.

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[SpaceTiger]

> Resolved: If President Bush is Elected, would it worsen
> world opinion of the United States?"

What worries me is that the answer to this question isn't blatantly obvious to everyone. Whatever you personally think of him, you have to admit that his international reputation sucks ass.

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[Danoz]

> What worries me is that the answer to this question isn't
> blatantly obvious to everyone. Whatever you personally
> think of him, you have to admit that his international
> reputation sucks ass.

Which made the topic fairly difficult. I actually conceded the argument and proposed a new proposition. "Resolved: That the current level of anti-American sentiment existing today is justified." I would be on the other end of this debate. The girl I'm debating already agreed to it's wording because she believes any anti-American sentiment is justified (hence her comparing the president to Adolf Hitler). At least she's cool outside the ring... I can't stand it when I debate people and they're cold to me outside of politics.


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