Swift Boat Veterans [Archive] - Zophar's Message Domain

Danoz

08-26-2004, 04:03 AM

I think these guys deserve a voice. It's easy for the Democrats to make the blanket assessment that "they're all liars", but these guys fought and bled in Vietnam just like John Kerry did. I'm not saying anything about John Kerry's service, I'm only saying that these people deserve the right to speak from their point of view, also-- and with the same level of credibility. Kerry and his supports have wrapped themselves in Vietnam since day one, and when it doesn't go their way, or it's sent back in the other direction, they dismiss it as an orchestrated Bush attack (even when Bush isn't the one making the statements! It's a number of soldiers who fought in the war). Now, I don't blame him entirely. They're making heavy accusations that he'll defend to the death whether they're true or not-- but the media needs to be fair in covering these soldiers. Organizations always rise in opposition to the candidates, and people against Bush have certainly done this where John Kerry isn't the primary endorser of the message. Give them the voice, look at the facts, make your own decision. Frankly, I'd like to know what "atrocities" Kerry claims to have committed himself during the Vietnam war.

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CEpeep

08-26-2004, 04:28 AM

Of course. This is America. You can say whatever you want. But nitpicking Kerry's military record on network television using GOP funds creates much more of a political "sway" then them just mentioning it to other people in passing, which is all it's really good for. Honestly, who really gives a fuck weather there were bullets being fired when Kerry saved some dude? If anyone lets the presence of bullets in Veitnam (or lack thereof) decide who they're gonna vote for, they deserve a swift kick in the groin. Just my $0.02.

<hr>
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Gokuh

08-26-2004, 04:55 AM

"they're all> liars",I'm only saying that these people deserve the right
> to speak from their point of view, also-- and with the same
> level of credibility.

I think the problem here is that these guys lost their credibility. They had credibility to begin with but they lost it because some of their accusations have been discredited. Especially that one guy. I forget his name but his own hand wrote the recommendation for Kerry to get a medal.

Another issue to their credibility is that most of them havnt served with Kerry. They served on different boats than him. Meanwhile, the people who served with Kerry (the vast majority), support Kerry's view of events.

So, this makes these guys look like liars. As more and more evidence comes out against these guys ruining their credibility, the more and more it looks like a "dirty GOP attack"

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Danoz

08-26-2004, 05:34 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

I think the problem here is that these guys lost their credibility. They had credibility to begin with but they lost it because some of their accusations have been discredited. Especially that one guy. I forget his name but his own hand wrote the recommendation for Kerry to get a medal.

<hr></blockquote>
And that's really all it takes. Even if some of the veterans did have something truthful and worthwhile to say, compiling anybody who will testify into an anti-Kerry book will only discredit the honest ones.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

So, this makes these guys look like liars. As more and more evidence comes out against these guys ruining their credibility, the more and more it looks like a "dirty GOP attack"

<hr></blockquote>
Which of course is possible. Personally, I think many veterans are rightfully bitter against Kerry as he returned from the war and accused them of atrocities. A lot of them simply felt betrayed. It's also a point that thousands of people served in Vietnam, and finding supports and dissenters in any direction isn't exactly difficult (Much like when certain media used "offended 9/11 victims" in response to a few Bush ads). I'm really not taking a firm side here, only wishing that the men who do have credibility in their words are given the appropriate attention and respect.

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MasterHD

08-26-2004, 05:47 AM

> I think many
> veterans are rightfully bitter against Kerry as he returned
> from the war and accused them of atrocities. A lot of them
> simply felt betrayed.

I thought that most returning veterans agreed that the war was a huge mistake.

________________________________________________
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Danoz

08-26-2004, 06:00 AM

> I thought that most returning veterans agreed that the war
> was a huge mistake.

The war being a mistake isn't the topic at hand, though. The fact that he protested the war is hardly something I disagree with. It's the manner in which he protested and, namely, the accusations that were made. I think a lot of things about Vietnam were a mistake-- but I also believe very strongly that war was lost in this country before we lost it over seas.

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Gokuh

08-26-2004, 06:07 AM

only wishing that the men who do have credibility
> in their words are given the appropriate attention and
> respect.

Well, if some of those peopl

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Gokuh

08-26-2004, 06:07 AM

only wishing that the men who do have credibility
> in their words are given the appropriate attention and
> respect.

Well, if some of those people do have credibility, they picked a lousy bunch to associate themselves with. Face it, its like the Kraft or Post advertisements i have been seeing (i forget what company exactly). They have an in house nutritionist saying how good their product is for you diet in their ads. The nutritionist loses credibility with being on the payroll of the company.

Regardless, this is a very stupid issue. Your news casts and pundits should be talking about Iraq, Intelligence failures, Militairy human rights failures, the economy, the "new deal", job creation, prescription drug prices and the environment. THose are the real issues. Not some long ended war.

U know what though. Kerry made to big of deal about his militairy service at the convention

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

mrfreeze

08-26-2004, 06:23 AM

> U know what though. Kerry made to big of deal about his
> militairy service at the convention
>
Because it is the one area in which the Bush administration really doesn't have much to fall back on. Let's face it, one way or the other Kerry served in combat in Vietnam and won a ton of awards, Bush didn't. Does this make Kerry a better person to run this country? Not really. Does it make a pretty good campaign booster to the average voter? I would say probably so.

Personally I would vote for either Nader if I thought he stood a chance in hell or McCain if he were to run again. I may disagree with both of them on some things, but at least I have no real qualms about their honesty. I can't say that for either person running right now.

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Octocrook

08-26-2004, 08:18 AM

> Personally I would vote for either Nader if I thought he
> stood a chance in hell or McCain if he were to run again. I
> may disagree with both of them on some things, but at least
> I have no real qualms about their honesty. I can't say that
> for either person running right now.

I love McCain. He may not be a particularly strong speaker, but I can see him as a strong leader, much more reasonable than either Kerry or Bush.

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Octocrook

08-26-2004, 08:44 AM

If all of this was truly important, where were these guys during Kerry's senatorial campaign? To go further, where were these guys when Kerry got his wounds and medals and spoke about the atrocities? It's hard to refute the possibility of underhanded politics when this SBVT was formed in 2004 only after Kerry won the nomination and is being funded by republican money.

Who cares anyways? Let's face it: at this point, anything on this topic is 100% word vs word. There is absolute way to prove or disprove each side. It's all a bunch of middle aged people trying to remember something specific from decades ago. What I do enjoy is how free speech for these guys wanting to say Kerry's service in Vietnam was essentially a sham is perfectly fine, but free speech for people that say their ad and entire "organization" is a sham is wrong. How is that fair? They can go ahead and run all the ads they want, but everyone has the right to their opinion, include those that completely disagree with them.

Ironically enough, I agree with what the Bush admin is saying about this entire thing, although I'm not so sure that they are completely uninvolved with the ad. Kerry's senatorial record is much more important than his service in Vietnam, just like Bush's presidential record is much more important than his service in the National Guard. This fucking presidential race needs to get back on topic: Who would be the better president and why?

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WhyteKnight

08-26-2004, 09:42 AM

Special interests and private groups have absolutely no place in politics whatsoever, no matter whom or what they might represent. Now this doesn't pertain entirely to your post, it certainly concerns the group in question.

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Danoz

08-26-2004, 03:15 PM

The point is that Kerry made it the main issue, and now that it is the main issue it has to be addressed.

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Danoz

08-26-2004, 03:18 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

This fucking presidential race needs to get back on topic: Who would be the better president and why?

<hr></blockquote>

Wouldn't that be nice. It's unfortunate that this door was ever opened.

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