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Danoz
08-13-2004, 02:10 AM
Wow. Well, I don't know what I was thinking! All along, John Kerry had the answer to fighting the war of our time... we'll fight it sensitive. I seriously can't believe he said this :D, I hope many of you take a good look at what your voting for this election.

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JadussD
08-13-2004, 02:11 AM
> Wow. Well, I don't know what I was thinking! All along, John
> Kerry had the answer to fighting the war of our time...
> we'll fight it sensitive. I seriously can't believe he said
> this :D, I hope many of you take a good look at what your
> voting for this election.
>

http://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=backroom&Number=236119&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&part=http://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=backroom&Number=236119&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&part=</A>

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Mr. Saturn
08-13-2004, 02:31 AM
Wow. A Bush supporter laughing about a politician saying something stupid. Now I've seen everything.

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Danoz
08-13-2004, 02:40 AM
> Wow. A Bush supporter laughing about a politician saying
> something stupid. Now I've seen everything.

This isn't a fumbled sentance, this is a stance on how a man wishing to be president plans on fighting for our future. Big difference.


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Crazy_MYKL
08-13-2004, 02:42 AM
> Wow. Well, I don't know what I was thinking! All along, John
> Kerry had the answer to fighting the war of our time...
> we'll fight it sensitive. I seriously can't believe he said
> this :D, I hope many of you take a good look at what your
> voting for this election.
>

You know what's even more stupid? Fighting a war on an abstract concept.

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Danoz
08-13-2004, 02:45 AM
Except for, this isn't petty-- and I've never been a "one issue voter". Somebody saying they will fight a more thoughtful, more sensitive WAR should be raising questions for a man who wishes to lead this country against forces of terror. While I agree with you about the media flipping out over petty instances (like Arnold's cigar smoking and dating history) I don't see this as one of them.

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SpaceTiger
08-13-2004, 02:45 AM
> This isn't a fumbled sentance, this is a stance on how a man
> wishing to be president plans on fighting for our future.
> Big difference.

Maybe you could explain what he meant by it, then. If he meant that he wanted to loosen up the patriot act so that it wasn't so fucking fascist, then I'm all for it. If he meant that he wasn't intending to blindly attack third-world countries with no proven links to terrorist groups, then it sounds reasonable to me. If he meant that he was going to consider international opinion before making a move, then he's probably using his head.

On the other hand, if he meant that he was going to be more sensitive to the terrorists themselves (something I highly doubt), then it's outrageous. I'd be willing to bet, however, that you don't know what he meant.

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Mr. Saturn
08-13-2004, 02:54 AM
> This isn't a fumbled sentance, this is a stance on how a man
> wishing to be president plans on fighting for our future.
> Big difference.

So intelligence is less important than how you push war?


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Danoz
08-13-2004, 02:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Maybe you could explain what he meant by it, then. If he meant that he wanted to loosen up the patriot act so that it wasn't so fucking fascist, then I'm all for it.

<hr></blockquote>
For somebody who criticizes me for using the word "fascist" with the ACLU, I find it strange that you use it just as easily when you find something you disagree with.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

If he meant that he wasn't intending to blindly attack third-world countries with no proven links to terrorist groups, then it sounds reasonable to me.

<hr></blockquote>
This is such spin the way you word this. "...to blindly attack third-world countries" like we dropped nuclear weapons on an innocent tribe. We actually removed a truly fascist dictator from power. We are liberating a country, giving other people (not just Americans) the freedom they deserve.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

If he meant that he was going to consider international opinion before making a move, then he's probably using his head.

<hr></blockquote>
If by this you mean watching empty resolutions circulate and waiting for the approval of cowardly nations-- I'd certainly apply this to a sensitive, appeasing approach.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

On the other hand, if he meant that he was going to be more sensitive to the terrorists themselves (something I highly doubt), then it's outrageous. I'd be willing to bet, however, that you don't know what he meant.

<hr></blockquote>
It's exactly that. It's exactly what I've been warning against since the beginning, and John Kerry, in his own speech, used the perfect word in describing how he would appease the enemy-- he would fight a sensitive war. You can say you knew what he meant, but I'm more concerned with what he said.

BTW: How was your summer, dude? I'm done with work tomorrow and I'm loving the thought of creative freedom once again. I'm sketching my next system model right now <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

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SpaceTiger
08-13-2004, 02:59 AM
> If he meant that he was going to
> consider international opinion before making a move, then
> he's probably using his head.

I just looked it up and it turns out this is what he meant. Here's the rest of the sentence:

"...more sensitive war on terror that reaches out to other nations and brings them to our side"

Gosh Danoz, it's odd that you didn't include the entire quote. I can't imagine why you'd want to take it out of context...

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Mr. Saturn
08-13-2004, 03:04 AM
> For somebody who criticizes me for using the word "fascist"
> with the ACLU, I find it strange that you use it just as
> easily when you find something you disagree with.

<a href=http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fascism>Fascism</a>

fas·cism
n.

1. often Fascism
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.






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RedXIII
08-13-2004, 03:04 AM
> Wow. Well, I don't know what I was thinking! All along, John
> Kerry had the answer to fighting the war of our time...
> we'll fight it sensitive.

I personally think we should parachute a couple thousand puppies and kittens on some unsuspecting enemies. They won't be able to last long with all those cute puppies and kittens and then we'll have them right where we want them.

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SpaceTiger
08-13-2004, 03:06 AM
> For somebody who criticizes me for using the word "fascist"
> with the ACLU, I find it strange that you use it just as
> easily when you find something you disagree with.

Perhaps you should look up the definition of fascism sometime.


> This is such spin the way you word this. "...to blindly
> attack third-world countries" like we dropped nuclear
> weapons on an innocent tribe.

Spin? You just reworded my statement as "dropped nuclear weapons on an innocent tribe". How dare you accuse me of spin?


> If by this you mean watching empty resolutions circulate and
> waiting for the approval of cowardly nations-- I'd certainly
> apply this to a sensitive, appeasing approach.

Empty rhetoric. Next....


> It's exactly that. It's exactly what I've been warning
> against since the beginning

So you genuinely think that John Kerry wants to make things easier for the terrorists? What are you smoking?


> speech, used the perfect word in describing how he would
> appease the enemy-- he would fight a sensitive war. You can
> say you knew what he meant, but I'm more concerned with what
> he said.

If you were actually concerned about what he said, you would have included the whole quote. You're just interested in pushing your viewpoint by any means necessary. I find the ethics of your debating tactics to be utterly appalling.

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Turtle
08-13-2004, 03:26 AM
Has anyone taken the time to consider that the reason Osama bin Laden turned against the United States was because of the disrespectful actions of American military personnel in the Muslim Holy Land? A little sensitivity might have prevented the 9/11 attacks from happening in the first place. I wish I could say that I'm surprised that this has never once been mentioned as part of the coverage of the recent atrocities regarding the torture of innocent civilians by the American military, but it's not at all surprising considering the state of American media.

However, I believe there are two ways to protect the US. We can go around bombing anyone whom we believe to be a possible threat, thus making even more enemies for ourselves. Alternatively, we could stop pissing people off in the first place so that they don't want us dead. A little sensitivity might be exactly what's needed in this case.

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Crazy_MYKL
08-13-2004, 03:28 AM
> For somebody who criticizes me for using the word "fascist"
> with the ACLU, I find it strange that you use it just as
> easily when you find something you disagree with.

fascist

adj : relating to or characteristic of fascism; "fascist propaganda" [syn: fascistic] n : an adherent of fascism or other right-wing authoritarian views


The ACLU is the antithesis of fascism, neither right-wing nor authoritarian. The PATRIOT act is pretty damn fascist, and almost centianly unconstitutional, but I digress. (Another topic for another time.)

> This is such spin the way you word this. "...to blindly
> attack third-world countries" like we dropped nuclear
> weapons on an innocent tribe. We actually removed a truly
> fascist dictator from power. We are liberating a country,
> giving other people (not just Americans) the freedom they deserve.

Did we have a well thought out plan to do this? Did we have Congress declare a state of war?

No?

Then it is not only blind, but illegitimate. The last time we officially went to war was WWII.

> If by this you mean watching empty resolutions circulate and
> waiting for the approval of cowardly nations-- I'd certainly
> apply this to a sensitive, appeasing approach.

When countries other than America are involved, their input matters. America is not the only nation that deserves respect.

> It's exactly that. It's exactly what I've been warning
> against since the beginning, and John Kerry, in his own
> speech, used the perfect word in describing how he would
> appease the enemy-- he would fight a sensitive war. You can say you
> knew what he meant, but I'm more concerned with what he said.

You took the quote out of context.

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Danoz
08-13-2004, 03:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Perhaps you should look up the definition of fascism sometime.

<hr></blockquote>
The organization seeks to enforce it's active anti-Christian and secular will on the people. And as for the patriot act, what rights have you been actively deprived of because of it's existance? I may not agree with everything in it, but you should certainly admit that your phrasing is a gross exaggeration.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Spin? You just reworded my statement as "dropped nuclear weapons on an innocent tribe". How dare you accuse me of spin?

<hr></blockquote>
Your statement was fully untrue. We attacked the regime of Saddam Hussein and we hardly did it "blindly".

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Empty rhetoric. Next....

<hr></blockquote>
Of course it is, it always is when you can't respond to it. Any resolution that requires no reaction if the demands are not met is an empty resolution built only to make it appear that action is being taken, and it can be done over the course of years while evil men like Saddam and his regime murder thousands of people.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

So you genuinely think that John Kerry wants to make things easier for the terrorists? What are you smoking?

<hr></blockquote>
No, I think John Kerry wants to help America, I think most liberals want to help protect America-- but he would go about it the wrong way, and the results of these mistakes would be detrimental.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

If you were actually concerned about what he said, you would have included the whole quote. You're just interested in pushing your viewpoint by any means necessary. I find the ethics of your debating tactics to be utterly appalling.

<hr></blockquote>
Oh come on, everything is "appalling", horrible horrible close-minded Dan just wants to force his viewpoint on the fragile minds of ZD liberals :P. I'm just as interested in thoughtful debate as you are, so save the bullshit for another day and stop replying to my posts like an offended soccer mom. I've included and responded to the words following, if you read my post. When he speaks of "gaining international support" he's taking about the support of select countries that president Bush sought initially and did not get, either because the countries were cowardly-- or they had connections with the dictator we were planning to overthrow. He's talking about the United Nations, and nothing is more sensitive than the way the UN will handle such conflicts. The word was fully inappropriate and I'll criticize it in the context of fighting the war of our time.
And you could have replied to my 'btw', if even to be polite. Good Lord, disagree with me but stop making everything so damnably personal. I actually wanted to know how your summer was :P

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Turtle
08-13-2004, 03:45 AM
> Then it is not only blind, but illegitimate. The last time
> we officially went to war was WWII.

And we've only "officially" went to war 5 times in the last 200 years. In fact, if you only consider it official if Congress issues a declaration of war, then you'll have to disregard the Civil War as an official war.

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(wraith_)
08-13-2004, 03:48 AM
> Your statement was fully untrue. We attacked the regime of
> Saddam Hussein and we hardly did it "blindly".

Either we went in blindly with our "poor Intelligence" of WMD's, or Bush went in with full knowledge that they weren't there.

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Danoz
08-13-2004, 03:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Has anyone taken the time to consider that the reason Osama bin Laden turned against the United States was because of the disrespectful actions of American military personnel in the Muslim Holy Land? A little sensitivity might have prevented the 9/11 attacks from happening in the first place. I wish I could say that I'm surprised that this has never once been mentioned as part of the coverage of the recent atrocities regarding the torture of innocent civilians by the American military, but it's not at all surprising considering the state of American media.

<hr></blockquote>
Right, blame the American military! Blame our cultural ways! Blame the crusades! These are angry people who believe murders and beheadings will bring them virgins, that it will please god! Trying to rationalize their actions is exactly what I'm talking about, and thank you for proving my point. John Kerry means exactly this when he uses the word "sensitive", it encompasses more than just bringing international support into the playing field-- it perfectly defines the way he'll handle terrorism. You just shifted the accountably right back in our direction, how very liberal of you.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

However, I believe there are two ways to protect the US. We can go around bombing anyone whom we believe to be a possible threat, thus making even more enemies for ourselves. Alternatively, we could stop pissing people off in the first place so that they don't want us dead. A little sensitivity might be exactly what's needed in this case.

<hr></blockquote>
Yup, I'm really glad you posted this. The people we're fighting want Americans to die, the kind of sensitivity you're referring to will show as weakness and they'll respond with more force. Do you remember who was really attacked here?
Really, this is where clouding the waters of morality is a perfect example and I have to continue along this fork in the thread. A person who dismantles good and evil will never believe for the life of them that men are capable of true hatred, of evil thoughts and actions. This is weakness, this is sensitivity-- and it leads to dangerous inaction.


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Mr. Saturn
08-13-2004, 03:55 AM
> A person who dismantles good and evil will never
> believe for the life of them that men are capable of true
> hatred, of evil thoughts and actions.

I guess I'm the exception, then.


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SpaceTiger
08-13-2004, 04:04 AM
> The organization seeks to enforce it's active anti-Christian
> and secular will on the people. And as for the patriot act,
> what rights have you been actively deprived of because of
> it's existance?

It's not my rights I'm concerned about. Perhaps you've heard of the previously unlawful detainment of suspected terrorists?


> I may not agree with everything in it, but
> you should certainly admit that your phrasing is a gross
> exaggeration.

The Bush administration is not fascist, but the Patriot Act is something one would expect from such a government. Based on that information, it's a matter of opinion as to whether you'd call my statement an exaggeration.


> Your statement was fully untrue. We attacked the regime of
> Saddam Hussein and we hardly did it "blindly".

I think that he was very blind to other points of view on the issue, so I do think he did it blindly, but that's something I certainly don't expect you to agree with.


> Of course it is, it always is when you can't respond to it.

You're right, I can't respond to pure opinion. All you said was that you thought the nations were cowardly and the resolutions empty. There were no supporting facts or even any kind of logical reasoning. What am I supposed to say?


> Any resolution that requires no reaction if the demands are
> not met is an empty resolution

True, but sanctions are repurcussions. Based on what we're seeing in Iraq, it seems that they were very effective.


> No, I think John Kerry wants to help America, I think most
> liberals want to help protect America-- but he would go
> about it the wrong way, and the results of these mistakes
> would be detrimental.

There, that's a good direction. Now explain why you think that.


> Oh come on, everything is "appalling", horrible horrible
> close-minded Dan just wants to force his viewpoint on the
> fragile minds of ZD liberals :P.

Your response reminds me of a girlfriend I once had. Every time you criticized her for something, she would play victim and try to get everyone to feel sorry for her. It was sadly effective.


> I'm just as interested in
> thoughtful debate as you are, so save the bullshit for
> another day

If I thought it was bullshit, I assure you that I wouldn't say it.


> He's talking about the United Nations, and
> nothing is more sensitive than the way the UN will handle
> such conflicts. The word was fully inappropriate and I'll
> criticize it in the context of fighting the war of our time.

The word is entirely irrelevant and this is where your post falls into line with what JadussD was complaining about. What's important is what was meant, not exactly what was said. If your every conversation was taped, I assure you that some seemingly inappropriate words, phrases, or intonations would come out from time to time. This kind of reactionism is extremely unhealthy for our country.


> And you could have replied to my 'btw', if even to be
> polite. Good Lord, disagree with me but stop making
> everything so damnably personal. I actually wanted to know
> how your summer was :P

Then ask me privately, for god's sake. Don't use it as an ad hominem in the middle of a political argument.

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Turtle
08-13-2004, 04:14 AM
> Right, blame the American military! Blame our cultural ways!

Well, when someone is clearly at fault, I do tend to blame them. If someone complains to my landlord because I'm blaring heavy metal music at 2 O'Clock in the morning, I don't blame them for having different taste in music or different sleeping patterns, I blame myself for doing something that was clearly offensive.


> You just shifted the accountably right back in our direction, how very
> liberal of you.

Does that mean that conservatives refuse to take responsibility for their mistakes?


> Yup, I'm really glad you posted this. The people we're
> fighting want Americans to die, the kind of sensitivity
> you're referring to will show as weakness and they'll
> respond with more force. Do you remember who was really
> attacked here?

Yes, the peole who were attacked were the people who did something to piss someone else off. If you think it's okay for America to attack Iraq because they were perceived as a threat to us, then you must also agree that it was okay for Osama to attack the US because he perceived us as a threat. And surely you realize that killing each other repeatedly isn't going to accomplish anything constructive, therefore attempting to come to terms peacefully is the only logical choice.


> Really, this is where clouding the waters of morality is a
> A person who dismantles good and evil will never
> believe for the life of them that men are capable of true
> hatred, of evil thoughts and actions. This is weakness, this
> is sensitivity-- and it leads to dangerous inaction.

Good is purely a matter of which side you're on. Evil never considers themself evil. Good is the side that won, thus the side that writes the history books.

Tell me, in your honest opinion, which is better? Killing someone or coming to a peaceful agreement with them?

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Crazy_MYKL
08-13-2004, 04:25 AM
> Good is purely a matter of which side you're on. Evil never
> considers themself evil.

ALMOST never, there are always those willing to do evil for evil's sake.

> Good is the side that won, thus the
> side that writes the history books.

"War doesn't decide who's right, war decides who's left."

- Kevin Jackson

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Turtle
08-13-2004, 04:27 AM
> ALMOST never, there are always those willing to do evil for
> evil's sake.

For example? (And I'm talking true evil, pulling the wings off of butterflies doesn't count.)

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Tsyni
08-13-2004, 04:51 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5685179/

Danoz is Cheneys son.

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Reaper man
08-13-2004, 06:06 AM
> I hope many of you take a good look at what your
> voting for this election.

I will, and it will be for Kerry

Fuck Bush. <img src=smilies/flipa.gif>

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Reaper man
08-13-2004, 06:08 AM
> The organization seeks to enforce it's active anti-Christian
> and secular will on the people.

oh yeah, well i could say that your "Christian" organization seeks to enforce it's active pro-Christian
and secular will on the people...


so there <img src=smilies/upeyes.gif>

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Kuikorosu
08-13-2004, 08:19 AM
> I hope many of you take a good look at what your
> voting for this election.

Geez, I know. We don't need to use our brains in war. Sensitivity and thoughtfulness have no bearing on our current situation. We need more explosives, more bombs. We seriously need to kill more of them than they killed us. We need more killing and death. More gore. Bloodshed is the key. MORE DEATH. DEATH AND HATRED. MORE. I DEMAND IT.

NUKE IRAQ.

I'm sure you agree, Danoz. After all, who the fuck needs a "more effective, more thoughtful, more strategic, more proactive, more sensitive war on terror that reaches out to other nations and brings them to our side and lives up to American values in history"

MORE DEATH. KILLING IS THE ANSWER. What's wrong with you Kerry fanatics? We need to build bigger bombs, and better weapons, and more effective methods of slaughter.

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IceWolf20
08-13-2004, 03:22 PM
> MORE DEATH. KILLING IS THE ANSWER. What's wrong with you
> Kerry fanatics? We need to build bigger bombs, and better
> weapons, and more effective methods of slaughter.

Just as soon as they perfect the "Tactical Neutron Bomb" we'll be all set....

btw....a big O'l WERD to that post.


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Danoz
08-13-2004, 11:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

It's not my rights I'm concerned about. Perhaps you've heard of the previously unlawful detainment of suspected terrorists?

<hr></blockquote>
I've heard about the detainment of people assumed to be a serious threat. I've heard about the detainment of people in perfectly livable environments with special attention to religious needs and meals. I'd like to put away people that want to blow us up, thank you. This is hardly a revisit of the Japanese internment camps in our history.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The Bush administration is not fascist, but the Patriot Act is something one would expect from such a government. Based on that information, it's a matter of opinion as to whether you'd call my statement an exaggeration.

<hr></blockquote>
Have you read it? It's a very misunderstood piece of legislation that primarily advocates better communication for those who protect us.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I think that he was very blind to other points of view on the issue, so I do think he did it blindly, but that's something I certainly don't expect you to agree with.

<hr></blockquote>

You go vote for a president that reads opinion polls, I'll vote for a president that wants to protect this country because we elected him to lead.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

You're right, I can't respond to pure opinion. All you said was that you thought the nations were cowardly and the resolutions empty. There were no supporting facts or even any kind of logical reasoning. What am I supposed to say? True, but sanctions are repurcussions. Based on what we're seeing in Iraq, it seems that they were very effective.

<hr></blockquote>
We already had sanctions in place, and they didn't stop Saddam from torturing, maiming and murdering his own people. Remember, it was the UN sanctions in 1990 after the invasion of Kuwait that lead to the UN's corrupted "Oil for Food" program and STILL didn't help the people. None of the resolutions would result in force, cowardly and empty.


> No, I think John Kerry wants to help America, I think most
> liberals want to help protect America-- but he would go
> about it the wrong way, and the results of these mistakes
> would be detrimental.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

There, that's a good direction. Now explain why you think that.

<hr></blockquote>
Because while I doubt he wants to harm America, his intentions are purely political and he stands on no foundation. He's a people-pleaser, he'll adopt the most popular opinion while he holds one foot on either side of the fence and tries to have it both ways. How do you honestly expect him to really lead us against this threat? Let me give you a quote of his from back in 2002--- "Let me be clear: the vote that I will give to the president is for one reason and one reason only, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint conference with our allies." A year later he said it was for a new reason, "to give the president a legitimate threat of force to go to the United Nations and form a coalition.", and later, this time to "protect the security of the country in a way that defended America’s values, that defended the troops." What will it be after this when asked the same question about his vote? He shrugs it off, saying "“the President didn’t need our authorization in the first place." Now he harps on international support and the approval of the UN, which, is obvious a weakness that will only hinder our progression. Liberals have made the word "unilateral" something negative, when it really isn't. Allow me to quote;
"As we’ll see, the Democrats’ big idea is to cultivate an image of sophistication in foreign policy, by advocating that we work more closely with other nations to combat international terrorism. If only we would work through the United Nations, they claim, we could have the cooperation of the entire world, and everything would work out fine. Never mind that America has itsown national security to worry about. Never mind that nations like France and Germany were courted tirelessly by the Bush administration, even when their demands flew in the face of America’s interests. Never mind that our supposedly “unilateral” action in Iraq was actually mounted by a coalition of willing nations.

The Democrats hope to get to the White House by calling George Bush a “unilateralist.” Well, I’ve got two problems with that idea. First of all, the fact that a few other recalcitrant nations won’t agree to join your cause doesn’t make you a unilateralist—even if those nations are longtime allies. But here’s the much more important point:Unilateralism is no crime, if it means acting in our own national interest regardless of the stance of other nations. It is our right—no, it is ourduty —to protect our own interests, regardless of whether other nations are willing to help us. We have never agreed to mortgage away our military to the U.N., or to delegate our national security interests to other nations or international bodies. And no matter what the Democrats might prefer, wemust never do so—not if America is to remain an independent nation." - Sean Hannity

> Oh come on, everything is "appalling", horrible horrible
> close-minded Dan just wants to force his viewpoint on the
> fragile minds of ZD liberals :P.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Your response reminds me of a girlfriend I once had. Every time you criticized her for something, she would play victim and try to get everyone to feel sorry for her. It was sadly effective.

<hr></blockquote>
Right, except I'm not playing the victim-- I'm noting how absurd your responses to my viewpoints are.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The word is entirely irrelevant and this is where your post falls into line with what JadussD was complaining about. What's important is what was meant, not exactly what was said.

<hr></blockquote>
Uh huh, and as he meant appealing to international support to make this a more sensitive war, every one of my statements is unaffected. I read and listened to all of his words, and I assure you the terrorists will not be effected by our sensitivity-- and certainly not by a sensitive appeal to nations that have already showed disgust and cowardice in the face of our cause.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

If your every conversation was taped, I assure you that some seemingly inappropriate words, phrases, or intonations would come out from time to time. This kind of reactionism is extremely unhealthy for our country.

<hr></blockquote>
You need to stop with this direction because I've replied to the intentions behind his word more than once.

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Danoz
08-14-2004, 12:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Well, when someone is clearly at fault, I do tend to blame them. If someone complains to my landlord because I'm blaring heavy metal music at 2 O'Clock in the morning, I don't blame them for having different taste in music or different sleeping patterns, I blame myself for doing something that was clearly offensive.

<hr></blockquote>
This is the worst parallel example I've ever read. If your playing loud music inspired the person to murder all the men, women and children in your building-- you blame them fully and completely, because it's not about the music anymore-- it's about killing.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Does that mean that conservatives refuse to take responsibility for their mistakes?

<hr></blockquote>
You've invented mistakes to reason for the terrorists.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Yes, the peole who were attacked were the people who did something to piss someone else off.

<hr></blockquote>
The 3000 people who died in the world trade center were at fault? The men women and children in those airplanes did something to piss off the terrorists? Are you this really this far gone?
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

If you think it's okay for America to attack Iraq because they were perceived as a threat to us, then you must also agree that it was okay for Osama to attack the US because he perceived us as a threat.

<hr></blockquote>
Wrong. He perceives us as an enemy of his extremist cult and seeks to see our country destroyed at all costs. There are no terms, turtle-- they want you and I dead. If you can't see this, I'm truly glad you're not in a position of power, because this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

And surely you realize that killing each other repeatedly isn't going to accomplish anything constructive, therefore attempting to come to terms peacefully is the only logical choice.

<hr></blockquote>
They don't desire peace. "The terrorists and their dishonorable sponsors have no intention of peaceful coexistence with America. They are defined only by their violent goals. And when confronted with such aggressors, we have limited choices. We can either ignore them, inviting further attack as we bury our heads in the sand, or we can resist them—with force."


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UncleOral
08-14-2004, 01:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

This is the worst parallel example I've ever read. If your
playing loud music inspired the person to murder all the
men, women and children in your building-- you blame them
fully and completely, because it's not about the music
anymore-- it's about killing.

<hr></blockquote>

Yes, killing. Now, for once, try to look at it from their point of view, let's say you didn't kill, but you did spit on them, kick them in the groin, urinate all over their house and cut their teddybears into pieces. Do you think they would turn the other cheek? No, they killed, and it is most certainly wrong, but they have their reasons for it, misinterpreted or not.

People aren't fucking good and evil Danoz, you aren't born and get a staple from either God or Satan (Property of).

Oh, and by the way, not going to war if you can avoid it does not == cowardice and lack of resolve. That's the kind of mentality which lead to the attack on the WTC's in the first place.


<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Does that mean that conservatives refuse to take responsibility for their mistakes?

<hr></blockquote>


<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

You've invented mistakes to reason for the terrorists.

<hr></blockquote>

He has invented nothing. Is your country perfect? In any way whatsoever? Do you honestly believe you aren't pissing off X if you give weaponry to Y while they are at war?

Taking responsibility is paramount for world peace, but sadly, the world leaders of today will rather argue who ruined who's little sand castle first, and act like childish brats if someone trespasses their territory, perceived or not.

I very much dislike the fact that the US wants to play world police and appointed Iraq the current bandits, I'm afraid anyone who disagrees with them in the future will be appointed bandit as well.

I hope China gives the US a good lesson in the future, I just hope no one will die because of arrogance, chances are, they will, and they will be innocent.

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Narvick
08-14-2004, 01:38 PM
Muslim extremists want to exterminate all non-Muslims. That's the cold hard truth. That's why Osama, Sadr, al-Qaeda, and the whole gamut do what they do. They believe it's what is right. They have ALWAYS thought this was right.

<P ID="signature">:D!</P>

Narvick
08-14-2004, 01:44 PM
I'm fully with you on this Danoz. I believe people don't realize that peace is not an option with these people. They will keep killing until they are killed themselves because they believe that is what Allah desires. They murder non-Muslims (and especially despise Jews, it seems) and always will. It's pretty much always been that way, it's just that things are getting hectic lately. I've noticed that I have never heard the media explain exactly why all of the terrorism stuff happens, even though the reason is simple. They want all men, women, and children who do not accept Islam to be killed. It's the cold, hard truth, and that kind of evil is what our soldiers have to battle every day. There is no peace and there won't be for a loooong time. Muslim extremists will not stop killing because they believe that we are in jihad. No peace talks, no cease-fire. Not everything in life can be resolved without violence. It sucks but it's true. I don't believe a lot of people on this board understand that. No one who isn't a Muslim extremist can rationalize their actions. The same people who defend them on this board are the same people the terrorists will kill without a second thought.

<P ID="signature">:D!</P>

Danoz
08-14-2004, 02:31 PM
> Muslim extremists want to exterminate all non-Muslims.
> That's the cold hard truth. That's why Osama, Sadr,
> al-Qaeda, and the whole gamut do what they do. They believe
> it's what is right. They have ALWAYS thought this was right.

Right. Turtle's attempt to bring this back the other direction as if both parties desire peace is a fantasy world. I have seen this kind of thought process somewhere else, also-- and that's on a website called philosophyforums.com where the majority of posters are from over seas. They take stances where they sympathize and rationalize for the terrorists. This is another key reason I fear the future, there are many people that solely blame America for the actions of these murderers… this is why I believe President Bush is the best thing we have right now.

They want to kill us. They want to kill you. But the kind of leftist I’ve seen, not so much in America-- but over seas, are the ones literally taking sides with the terrorists and their sponsors. We need to elect somebody we’re sure will stand up to them. I’ll be honest with everybody here, I think most of you underestimate what we’re up against. It’s a damn good thing the leadership in England is more enlightened than the rapidly fading people.

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Danoz
08-14-2004, 02:52 PM
Your analogy makes no sense because you're inventing justification. Did not the Nazi's murder the Jews because they percieved them as a threat to thier "perfect society"? It's the same kind of evil, and it's not about fighting for pride... it's about fighting to protect yourself. If somebody is going to kill you because of who you are and they're right at your doorstep, you can either kill or be killed. They want us to die, we desire peace... but peace will not be achieved until our constantly fighting enemies are destroyed.

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Danoz
08-14-2004, 02:55 PM
Ah, do you know what? I did reply to you last night, but I posted it in the wrong place. Find it here: http://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=backroom&Number=236322&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0

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Narvick
08-14-2004, 03:15 PM
Yes, it is literally a kill-or-be-killed situation. There is no other option. Yes, it sucks. Yes, it's not right. But that's how the world is...it's a cold, cruel, dangerous place.

<P ID="signature">:D!</P>

SpaceTiger
08-14-2004, 03:50 PM
> Has anyone taken the time to consider that the reason Osama
> bin Laden turned against the United States was because of
> the disrespectful actions of American military personnel in
> the Muslim Holy Land?

I very much doubt that Osama bin Laden can be reasoned with, but what our foreign policy can impact is the amount of support that terrorists get from the general populations of those countries (or ours, even). In this sense, I think that a more "sensitive" war on terror would actually be a more effective one because it would reduce the ranks of the enemy. The extremists themselves may not be swayed, but they'll have much less to work with.

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UncleOral
08-14-2004, 04:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Your analogy makes no sense because you're inventing
justification. Did not the Nazi's murder the Jews because
they percieved them as a threat to thier "perfect society"?

<hr></blockquote>

I'm not inventing anything, why is it the US is targeted when these guys want every non-muslim in the entire world brought down?
"We're the biggest, we're the best, and we are the world police", might be one response, and as a matter of fact, that's probably partly true. Because the US think like that, that's part of the reason why they are on top of the list.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

It's the same kind of evil, and it's not about fighting for
pride... it's about fighting to protect yourself. If
somebody is going to kill you because of who you are and
they're right at your doorstep, you can either kill or be
killed. They want us to die, we desire peace... but peace
will not be achieved until our constantly fighting enemies
are destroyed.

<hr></blockquote>

While it's probably nice and easy to see the world in black and white, I fear the repurcussions of such ignorance will only lead to more death and yet more ignorance as more and more people adapt to this view.

I'm pulling out of this debate already, I never really wanted to participate (really can't argue with someone who always believe they are right). I'll leave it to SpaceTiger to try to be the voice of reason, seeing as he more often then not is.

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Danoz
08-14-2004, 05:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I'm not inventing anything, why is it the US is targeted when these guys want every non-muslim in the entire world brought down?
"We're the biggest, we're the best, and we are the world police", might be one response, and as a matter of fact, that's probably partly true. Because the US think like that, that's part of the reason why they are on top of the list.

<hr></blockquote>

So, we're to blame for international terroritsts because of the way we think? Thinking is reason for death? They're concentrating on us because we actually post a threat to thier goals, not of peace, but of murder.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I'm pulling out of this debate already, I never really wanted to participate (really can't argue with someone who always believe they are right). I'll leave it to SpaceTiger to try to be the voice of reason, seeing as he more often then not is.

<hr></blockquote>

I can't imagine SpaceTiger finds America the sole source of fault for terrorist and thier sponsers. This is hardly a voice of reason, it's a voice of appeasement.



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Goku
08-14-2004, 06:00 PM
America the sole source of
> fault for terrorist and thier sponsers. This is hardly a
> voice of reason, it's a voice of appeasement.

Some people argue that the rise of militant muslim islamism is the direct result of decades of middle east policy. Not just american, but french, british, and pretty much anyone else messed with middle eastern rulership in the last hundred or so years.

They would argue that the foreign policy of propping up friendly corrupt dictatorships with their associated atrocities would cause unrest and ignorance within the countries populace. This could make them suseptible to the whine of an islamic militant.

Ofcourse, this is all debatable. Is it the United States fault that the WTC got hit. No, it was an act of war. Is the United States responsible for creating the environment that would allow islamic militanism to take place. Yes, it would be acceptable to say partially - but not fully. There is plenty of blame to go around.


<P ID="signature">ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ</P>

Goku
08-14-2004, 06:08 PM
I do not know. Has the United States gone beyond the point of return? I think the problem could becoming instituionalized. The US might never be able to get rid of this terrorism now. I hope so, but it could become a thing where the older generation teaches the yonger generation to hate - and over time it swells. I think it would be very difficult to reduce the swelling of the terrorist base.


Regardless, the US needs to stop supporting friendly dictatorships with economic aid. There needs to be a certiain standard - populace education programs, equal rights for women...ect..in order to qualify for this aid.

There really is not much point in throwing money to corrupt people. It helps your interest in the short term, but in the long run the populace hates you for giving their corrupt rulers the resources for staying in power

I think John Kerry used the wrong word when he used sensitive. You do not need a more sensitive war. You need a more sensible war. Be sensitve where you have to be and strong where you have to be.

<P ID="signature">ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ</P>

king killa
08-14-2004, 06:46 PM
> Has anyone taken the time to consider that the reason Osama
> bin Laden turned against the United States was because of
> the disrespectful actions of American military personnel in
> the Muslim Holy Land? A little sensitivity might have
> prevented the 9/11 attacks from happening in the first
> place.

1) Fuck Osama Bin Laden.
2) Was this directed at Bush or just The Government in general?

If it was against Bush, I'm sorry to say this... but you're a dipshit.
Anyone who thinks that Bush did something to cause 9/11 needs to stop being a bitch and look at the facts.
1) The Trade Centers were attacked by a Truck Bomb by terrorists in 93, when clinton was in office.
2) Something like 9/11 would take a long time to plan. Bush had been in office for 9 months. Now, what did he do in 9 months that gave them the time to plan that?

btw Turtle, you can dissregard most of that if you weren't aiming your post at Bush.

<P ID="signature"></P>

thegodofhellfire
08-14-2004, 06:52 PM
> It’s a damn good thing the leadership in England is more
> enlightened than the rapidly fading people.

Wow. You sit there and espouse wisdom on the benefits of exporting democracy, and then actively undermine it by endorsing the acts of a government who acts against the will of the people. Your ignorance of the flaws in your own world vision really knows no bounds.

<P ID="signature"></p><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by thegodofhellfire on 08/14/04 02:02 PM.</FONT></P>

SpaceTiger
08-14-2004, 07:20 PM
> I do not know. Has the United States gone beyond the point
> of return? I think the problem could becoming
> instituionalized. The US might never be able to get rid of
> this terrorism now.

Terrorism will never go away, but it may be controlled and limited. The hope is to eliminate organized, international terrorism, not the McVeigh-style nutjob stuff.


> I think John Kerry used the wrong word when he used sensitive. You do not
> need a more sensitive war. You need a more sensible war. Be sensitve where
> you have to be and strong where you have to be.

You're just stating the obvious, though. I think his point was that sensitivity was the area in which we were most lacking.

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icenine0
08-15-2004, 01:13 AM
> I hope many of you take a good look at what your voting for this election.

I did. I'm with the "if the whole world hates your country, then it's time for a new leader" coalition.

The Bush administration hasgottago.

Danoz
08-15-2004, 01:29 AM
> I did. I'm with the "if the whole world hates your country,
> then it's time for a new leader" coalition.

The "whole world" doesn't hate our country.

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Lillymon
08-15-2004, 01:32 AM
> The "whole world" doesn't hate our country.

Yeah, just the whole world outside of the Republican party and conservative Christians.

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icenine0
08-15-2004, 02:02 AM
<H3>Supporting Data</H3>
<H4>Worldwide Polls</H4>
Views of a Changing World, 2003 (http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=185)
Released: June 3, 2003

Quotes:
"...the postwar poll paints a mostly negative picture of the image of America, its people and policies"
"...since last summer, favorable opinions of the U.S have slipped in nearly every country for which trend measures are available."

Summary of Findings: A Year After Iraq War (http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206)
Released: March 14, 2004

Quotes:
"A year after the war in Iraq, discontent with America and its policies has intensified rather than diminished."
"...opinions of both President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are negative. Large majorities in every country, except for the U.S., hold an unfavorable opinion of Bush."

<H4>Articles</H4>
Anti-American Sentiment Rising in Asia (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0519-06.htm)
Released: May 19, 2004

Washington Post: Mainstream Anti-Americanism (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43020-2004Jun15.html)
Released: June 15, 2004

"From Canada to Australia to South Korea, anti-American feelings are driving political debate and shaping decisions about military alliances with the United States. Where critics of Washington were once marginal, now they are mainstream."

These were corroborated by a friend of mine who recently took a trip across Europe with an American group. He said that, in nearly every country, "people hated us over there"; his hotel reservations were frequently revoked without explanation, locals gave him dirty looks in the street, he was spat on in Amsterdam, etc.

<P ID="signature">The more often you fail, the sweeter the taste of success!</P>

Goku
08-15-2004, 02:59 AM
> You're just stating the obvious, though. I think his point
> was that sensitivity was the area in which we were most
> lacking.

True. Did you see the daily show thrusday? They had Kerrys sensitive comment, followed by Cheneys comment, followed by Bush saying in an earlier function that they had to be more "sensitive" in fighting terrorism. It was pretty damn funny actually.

Still, I think terrorism against the US is here to stay. It wont go away until the people doing the terrorist acts focus their anger at their own leaders.

<P ID="signature">ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ</P>

Danoz
08-15-2004, 04:45 AM
> Yeah, just the whole world outside of the Republican party
> and conservative Christians.

Because all Democrats, liberals and those who decide against religion hate America <img src=smilies/upeyes.gif>, I certainly don't believe this-- it's ignorant of you to say this.

America is the greatest country on Earth. The jealousy of others can be a dangerous thing.

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Crazy_MYKL
08-15-2004, 05:50 AM
> America is the greatest country on Earth. The jealousy of
> others can be a dangerous thing.

Not as bad as arrogance.

<P ID="signature">---
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So I ordered French Toast in the Rennaissance.
---
This post rot26 encoded.</P>

Danoz
08-15-2004, 01:16 PM
> Not as bad as arrogance.

Honest confidence.


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Turtle
08-15-2004, 05:36 PM
It wasn't aimed at Bush Jr. It wasn't even really aimed at his father, who was president during the time I was referring to. In case you're not aware, when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, Osama bin Laden was far more pissed off about it than we were. In fact, he was fully prepared to take his army to war to eliminate Kuwait. Then Bush Sr. and his buddies asked Saudi Arabia to prevent him from doing so in order to allow the US to wage the war instead. By all accounts, however, what truly turned Osama against the US was the way the American military handled themselves in the Muslim holy lands, generally disrespecting the culture as a whole. No president was responsible for this, but neither did they once attempt to amend it, either.

<P ID="signature"></P>

Tsyni
08-15-2004, 05:37 PM
> Honest confidence.

Willed ignorance.


<P ID="signature">--//--
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
T.S. Eliot, The Wasteland</P>

Turtle
08-15-2004, 05:52 PM
> You've invented mistakes to reason for the terrorists.

No, I'm pretty sure the American military "invented" those mistakes when they made them.

> The 3000 people who died in the world trade center were at
> fault? The men women and children in those airplanes did
> something to piss off the terrorists? Are you this really
> this far gone?

They were just as deserving as all of the innocent Iraqi citizens that the US military has murdered in the last year and a half. Or the 500,000+ Iraqi children who were killed by the UN.

> Wrong. He perceives us as an enemy of his extremist cult and
> seeks to see our country destroyed at all costs. There are
> no terms, turtle-- they want you and I dead.

If Osama bin Laden is so truly evil and wants every single non-Muslim dead, please explain how it is that he's often been interviewed by non-Muslim reporters and they weren't killed? He certainly doesn't NEED them to get his beliefs out, he does that all the time via his own video taped interviews and Aljazeera. If he truly wanted every single non-Muslim dead, surely he'd have killed some of this Christian journalists that sat directly next to him on his own territory. But I'm sure you'll have some sort of conspiracy theory with which to explain this, it couldn't possibly be that the American media & government have lied about bin Laden's beliefs.

<P ID="signature"></P>

Turtle
08-15-2004, 06:13 PM
> America is the greatest country on Earth.

For the greatest country on earth, we sure have a lot of homeless people. We sure have a lot of people who die because they can't afford health care. We sure kill a lot of innocent civilians just because we don't like their government. But hey, we have the best rock & roll in the world! We have the largest pornography industry in the world! We even have a better version of football! By God, if you think that a country isn't great just because a large percentage of it's population lives in poverty, you just don't understand greatness!

<P ID="signature"></P>

MooglyGuy
08-15-2004, 06:20 PM
> > Honest confidence.
>
> Willed ignorance.

...Gross negligence? http://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/smilies/eek13.gif

Danoz
08-15-2004, 06:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

For the greatest country on earth, we sure have a lot of homeless people. We sure have a lot of people who die because they can't afford health care. We sure kill a lot of innocent civilians just because we don't like their government. But hey, we have the best rock & roll in the world! We have the largest pornography industry in the world! We even have a better version of football! By God, if you think that a country isn't great just because a large percentage of it's population lives in poverty, you just don't understand greatness!

<hr></blockquote>

We also provide more assistance to countries in need than any other. We've continued to protect this world and the people in it when called, and the people in America live damn good lives of incredible opportunity. I challenge you to name a greater nation. No country has accumulated more power more quickly and abused it less, and that's a fact.

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Turtle
08-15-2004, 07:30 PM
> We also provide more assistance to countries in need than
> any other. We've continued to protect this world and the
> people in it when called

We provide assistance to those countries that can serve our needs in some way. If a country has nothing we desire, we don't help them.

> and the people in America live damn good lives of incredible opportunity.

Sure, as long as they're white Christians or willing to bend to the ideas of such. If America was interested in providing opportunities, prisons would be used to rehabilitate people, not simply to punish them. If America was interested in providing opportunities, people would be afforded all necessary medical care as well as whatever education they desire. Hell, Iraq had a superior educational system to the US before we destroyed most of it.


> I challenge you to name a greater nation.

Canada


> No country has accumulated more power more quickly and abused it less, and that's a fact.

No, that's not a fact. Just because you don't like the people being abused doesn't mean it's not abuse. America is the single most abusive country in the world today. Look at our dealings with Sudan or Venezuela. What sort of opportunities are we providing by funding the recall of a democratically elected president who has the support of the general population because that president had the audacity to demand that the US pay fair prices for his countries resources? What kind of aid are we providing by issuing economic sanctions against a country for selling it's citizens into slavery but still allowing them to send us the product that accounts for over 75% of their gross national product simply because Pepsi and Coke can get said product from them cheaper than anywhere else? You can close your eyes and plug your ears all you want, but that doesn't make anyone's suffering go away.

<P ID="signature"></P>

SpaceTiger
08-15-2004, 07:51 PM
> > > Honest confidence.
> >
> > Willed ignorance.
>
> ...Gross negligence?

Morbid obesity.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

Fla Flash
08-15-2004, 09:19 PM
Quote:

> > > Honest confidence.
> >
> > Willed ignorance.
>
> ...Gross negligence?
>


No.
Heads up asses.

<P ID="signature"><img src=http://www.freewebs.com/mewscorner/mean.png>
Diary of a Vigilante III...The Homecoming.. (http://www.freewebs.com/mewscorner/)</P>

MooglyGuy
08-15-2004, 11:39 PM
> > > Willed ignorance.
> >
> > ...Gross negligence?
>
> Morbid obesity.

Artificial virginity.

<P ID="signature">http://www.zophar.net/personal/mooglyguy/new_jersey.gif</P>

Danoz
08-16-2004, 12:11 AM
> Artificial virginity.

Testicular fortitude?


<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

MooglyGuy
08-16-2004, 12:45 AM
> > Artificial virginity.
>
> Testicular fortitude?

Urinary incontinence!

<P ID="signature">http://www.zophar.net/personal/mooglyguy/new_jersey.gif</P>

JadussD
08-16-2004, 02:38 AM
> > Artificial virginity.
>
> Testicular fortitude?
>

100% Grade-A, government-sponsored, small-town, small-minded, Mom-God-and-Apple-pie, jingoistic, egotistic, self-fellating, antidisestablishmentarian, simplistic, dualistic, support-our-troops, wrong-headed, ethnocentric, interventionist, self-destructive, revisionist, flag-waving, chauvinist, pseudo-freedom-touting, pseudo-conservative, selectively-remembered, masculine, let's-dive-headfirst-into-the-apocalypse horse-shit.

<P ID="signature"><HR>
<CENTER>http://members.aol.com/jadussvii/Alcahest-Sociopathic_Engineering.oggThis music wants you dead.</a></center></P>

Crazy_MYKL
08-16-2004, 05:26 AM
> > > Artificial virginity.
> >
> > Testicular fortitude?
>
> Urinary incontinence!
>

http://www.wackyweaselworld.com/flameINC/images/MISC19.jpg

<P ID="signature">---
I was at this restaurant. The sign said "Breakfast Anytime."
So I ordered French Toast in the Rennaissance.
---
This post rot26 encoded.</P>

king killa
08-16-2004, 02:51 PM
Ok, I agree.

<P ID="signature"></P>

king killa
08-16-2004, 03:04 PM
How do you encrypt something to rot26?

<P ID="signature"></P>

IceWolf20
08-16-2004, 03:26 PM
Ok...all fine and dandy....but quoting Hannity (or Combs or O'Reiley) would be like me quoting Michael Moore....it really isn't valid at this point due to the extremity of their viewpoints.

<P ID="signature"><div align="center">http://stuorgs.lvc.edu/acm/_private/ZMD.gif
...the way to be!</div></P>

Danoz
08-16-2004, 05:56 PM
> Ok...all fine and dandy....but quoting Hannity (or Combs or
> O'Reiley) would be like me quoting Michael Moore....it
> really isn't valid at this point due to the extremity of
> their viewpoints.

Hannity is hardly an extremist like Moore, it's stupid of you to say. His viewpoints are in line with the mainstream conservatives in this country, not the wacky leftist lies of Micheal Moore where nothing but propaganda is spouted to a small audience of Bush-haters that will believe anything. Also, examine the quote and respond to it... don't dismiss it as irrelevent because you don't like him.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

SpaceTiger
08-16-2004, 06:10 PM
> Hannity is hardly an extremist like Moore, it's stupid of
> you to say. His viewpoints are in line with the mainstream
> conservatives in this country, not the wacky leftist lies of
> Micheal Moore where nothing but propaganda is spouted to a
> small audience of Bush-haters

Actually, in my experience, most lefties agree with his viewpoints. They only question his methods.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

MooglyGuy
08-16-2004, 06:29 PM
> > > > Artificial virginity.
> > >
> > > Testicular fortitude?
> >
> > Urinary incontinence!

...Vehicular derailment!!!

<P ID="signature">http://www.zophar.net/personal/mooglyguy/new_jersey.gif</P>

Danoz
08-16-2004, 06:36 PM
> Actually, in my experience, most lefties agree with his
> viewpoints. They only question his methods.

That's probably why he had a respected seat at the convention right next to former president Carter. I really don't think shrugging Hannity off as an extremist is fair or correct, though. Have you ever listened to or watched Sean Hannity?

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

IceWolf20
08-16-2004, 06:53 PM
> That's probably why he had a respected seat at the
> convention right next to former president Carter. I really
> don't think shrugging Hannity off as an extremist is fair or
> correct, though. Have you ever listened to or watched Sean
> Hannity?

Yes...only in small doses....I can't stand that man. But I will give him the benefit if the doubt that he's less full of shit than O'Reiley. Aside from the fact that I believe that Hannity is nowhere near the middle, and is pretty far out to the right, I take whatever he says with a grain of salt. I've tried listening to these people, but they never make any sense...they seeminly have an opinion, and then try to put that opinion as fact that should be accepted and unquestioned. I think his book is the pinnacle of proof for this. Opinion are not facts, no matter how you put it. Now, you can have opinion about facts, but you can't make them part of the facts. I can discern the difference in what he says, and in what Michael Moore says. Truth and opinion are very different things, and the impression I get from Hannity is that he is given the truth, and knows the truth, but puts his opinionated overtone to it, and it comes out "right-wingy" and arrogant....that's why I don't like him, and feel that whatever he says really can't be taken all that seriously.

Now, I know you're thinking that if I can't take Hannity seriously, then who do I take seriously. Well, to be blunt...no one. Any form of news that comes to me, be it from Fox or CNN, I scarcely belive it, and usually stick with BBC or other foreign news sources. American media is so full of shit and slanted sensationalist opinion, that no real information ever really gets to anyone...which brings me back to Hannity. Between him and O'Reiley...its sensationalism at its finest, and when ratings, opinion, and power driven money take over information, then it can no longer be trusted.

<P ID="signature"><div align="center">http://stuorgs.lvc.edu/acm/_private/ZMD.gif
...the way to be!</div></P>

Goku
08-16-2004, 07:40 PM
NT - Nice Tits

Now lets break out in song:

Rock a by baby,
On the tree top,
When the wind blows,
The Cradle will rock.
Down will come baby,
Cradle and All.


Of if that does not float your boat, try this:

Sunny Days,
Keep the Clouds a way
Can you tell me how to get,
how to get to seaseme street...hot to get...

<P ID="signature">ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ</P>

Danoz
08-16-2004, 08:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Yes...only in small doses....I can't stand that man. But I will give him the benefit if the doubt that he's less full of shit than O'Reiley. Aside from the fact that I believe that Hannity is nowhere near the middle, and is pretty far out to the right, I take whatever he says with a grain of salt.

<hr></blockquote>
Hannity doesn't claim to be in the middle, he's open and honest about the fact that he's a right-wing conservative. I enjoy listening to Hannity because I'm very much the same way, a proud conservative Christian not afraid to tell it like it is.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I've tried listening to these people, but they never make any sense...they seeminly have an opinion, and then try to put that opinion as fact that should be accepted and unquestioned. I think his book is the pinnacle of proof for this.

<hr></blockquote>
His book presents facts and then comments on them. I read "Deliver Us From Evil" cover to cover, I thought it was very well written. He especially used history to prove his points, and my World History professor, a strong liberal, agreed that his history was well laid out. You can disagree with his conclusions, but his facts are straight up. And, as I've done before, I challenge you to read this book-- and I would, in return, read whatever book you would have me read. We could throw PMs back and forth about our findings. (I did this with a friend and read Al Frankens god-forsaken book.)
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Opinion are not facts, no matter how you put it. Now, you can have opinion about facts, but you can't make them part of the facts. I can discern the difference in what he says, and in what Michael Moore says. Truth and opinion are very different things, and the impression I get from Hannity is that he is given the truth, and knows the truth, but puts his opinionated overtone to it, and it comes out "right-wingy" and arrogant....that's why I don't like him, and feel that whatever he says really can't be taken all that seriously.

<hr></blockquote>
Well take it seriously, but do research on the facts and see if you come to the same conclusion. The chances are, you won't-- but at least you'll know where he's coming from.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Now, I know you're thinking that if I can't take Hannity seriously, then who do I take seriously. Well, to be blunt...no one. Any form of news that comes to me, be it from Fox or CNN, I scarcely belive it, and usually stick with BBC or other foreign news sources. American media is so full of shit and slanted sensationalist opinion, that no real information ever really gets to anyone...which brings me back to Hannity. Between him and O'Reiley...its sensationalism at its finest, and when ratings, opinion, and power driven money take over information, then it can no longer be trusted.

<hr></blockquote>
I'll read the BBC and I'll watch CNN, but I have always preferred FOX News above them all. I find many foreign news souces blindly anti-american and full of pure distortion. We obviously disagree on where the distortion is.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

IceWolf20
08-16-2004, 08:59 PM
> Hannity doesn't claim to be in the middle, he's open and
> honest about the fact that he's a right-wing conservative. I
> enjoy listening to Hannity because I'm very much the same
> way, a proud conservative Christian not afraid to tell it
> like it is.

Ok....whatever he is, I still don't like him...but not liking him doesn't mean that I don't listen to what he has to say.

> His book presents facts and then comments on them. I read
> "Deliver Us From Evil" cover to cover, I thought it was very
> well written. He especially used history to prove his
> points, and my World History professor, a strong liberal,

I've read portions of this book, and I really can't say I would be able to force myself to get the whole way throught it...but we may be able to work something out <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>


> Well take it seriously, but do research on the facts and see
> if you come to the same conclusion. The chances are, you
> won't-- but at least you'll know where he's coming from.

The thing is here...I get that you take the assumption that I am, and have always been a "liberal" (so far as you would define them). However, it was researching the facts that actually made me change my mind. I was a staunch, Clinton/Liberal hating, registered Republican. Then I went to college, and during that time, I actaully took the time to do research into the issues and what was happening in the world, rather than blindly accept what my parents had always told me. By the time I was a Junior, I was fed up with the Bush administration and the republican party...and its bullshit nonesense. At this point, I'm not a Democrat and/or liberal (despite what you may think), but rather I feel that I am an enlightened independent that happens to be siding with the Democrats this time around. I voted Republican in 2000....I'll be voting Democrat in 2004....who knows what 2008 will bring. I've done the research, and I've learned alot, and keep researching everything that either I love or loathe....b/c I want to make sure that I'm making the best informed decision that I can at all times. From the information that I've gathered and researched, I feel that the direction the country is heading is not only a bad one, but a wrong one. Unfortunatly the opposition is not that much closer to my ideals, but it is still a change from the status quo, and it is this change that I feel will make the positive difference in this country. That's why voting is so great...if you mess up, you can do it over in four years.


> I'll read the BBC and I'll watch CNN, but I have always
> preferred FOX News above them all. I find many foreign news
> souces blindly anti-american and full of pure distortion. We
> obviously disagree on where the distortion is.

Certainly....I feel that Fox is the most distorted news source in the world....well, maybe after Al-Jazeera. Point being, if I had choice between Fox and CNN, I'd watch CNN....but if BBC News is on....I'll watch that over everything....at least that cuts out most of the bullshit no one should care about, but do anyways.

Since we're on the topic of sensationalism....I'd recommend watching the movie "Out Foxed", about the distortions of FoxNews....I'd be interested to see your opinions about it, from a regular viewer of FoxNews. B/c when I watch it, it'll just pan into my distaste for the station that already exists...and I'd like to see a defense for their actions. I'll sort through some books for you to take a look at, and I'll get on that Hannity book.

<P ID="signature"><div align="center">http://stuorgs.lvc.edu/acm/_private/ZMD.gif
...the way to be!</div></P>

MooglyGuy
08-16-2004, 09:19 PM
> Actually, in my experience, most lefties agree with his
> viewpoints. They only question his methods.

Methodical alienation? <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

<P ID="signature">http://www.zophar.net/personal/mooglyguy/new_jersey.gif</P>

Crazy_MYKL
08-16-2004, 09:38 PM
> How do you encrypt something to rot26?
>

You rotate each letter 26 places. In other words, you do nothing.

And to decrypt, it is the same way.

<P ID="signature">---
I was at this restaurant. The sign said "Breakfast Anytime."
So I ordered French Toast in the Rennaissance.
---
This post rot26 encoded.</P>

Danoz
08-16-2004, 10:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The thing is here...I get that you take the assumption that I am, and have always been a "liberal" (so far as you would define them). However, it was researching the facts that actually made me change my mind. I was a staunch, Clinton/Liberal hating, registered Republican. Then I went to college, and during that time, I actaully took the time to do research into the issues and what was happening in the world, rather than blindly accept what my parents had always told me. By the time I was a Junior, I was fed up with the Bush administration and the republican party...and its bullshit nonesense.

<hr></blockquote>
Well, who ever said I was happy with the Bush administration or the Republican party? I'm a conservative, not necessarily a lover of any party doctrine. I've said on several occasions that I believe Bush has made a lot of domestic errors, but I see him as much better than Kerry to take on this war.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

At this point, I'm not a Democrat and/or liberal (despite what you may think), but rather I feel that I am an enlightened independent that happens to be siding with the Democrats this time around.

<hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure what you would have against O'Reilly, he finds himself without party and is quite honest. I don't find myself agreeing with him all the time, but I do like him and his show.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I voted Republican in 2000....I'll be voting Democrat in 2004....who knows what 2008 will bring. I've done the research, and I've learned alot, and keep researching everything that either I love or loathe....b/c I want to make sure that I'm making the best informed decision that I can at all times. From the information that I've gathered and researched, I feel that the direction the country is heading is not only a bad one, but a wrong one. Unfortunatly the opposition is not that much closer to my ideals, but it is still a change from the status quo, and it is this change that I feel will make the positive difference in this country. That's why voting is so great...if you mess up, you can do it over in four years.

<hr></blockquote>
Well, you can't say I haven't done my homework on the issues.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Certainly....I feel that Fox is the most distorted news source in the world....well, maybe after Al-Jazeera. Point being, if I had choice between Fox and CNN, I'd watch CNN....

<hr></blockquote>
Do you watch much Fox? It seems like Fox gets attacked among online communities and then some people never even really give it a chance. I think when there are debate programs, both sides are really presented well in an argument. I primarily watch Fox and read Newsweek religiously.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

but if BBC News is on....I'll watch that over everything....at least that cuts out most of the bullshit no one should care about, but do anyways.

<hr></blockquote>
I'll read BBC online and I love their educational programs, but I don't depend on them for news.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Since we're on the topic of sensationalism....I'd recommend watching the movie "Out Foxed", about the distortions of FoxNews....I'd be interested to see your opinions about it, from a regular viewer of FoxNews.

<hr></blockquote>
If you sent it to me on IRC or something, I'd watch it and reply honestly. I believe Hannity did a show (radio) replying to that and Al Franken's book, but the people who did the movie wouldn't come on the show and talk about it (usually a sign, for me, that they're cowards and full of shit).
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

B/c when I watch it, it'll just pan into my distaste for the station that already exists...and I'd like to see a defense for their actions. I'll sort through some books for you to take a look at, and I'll get on that Hannity book.

<hr></blockquote>
What actions? I've read articles that make accusations, but that's about it.
And chose me a book, I'll read a good book of an opposing viewpoint and mark the shit out of it... this is fun for me :D

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

Slicer S. V.
08-17-2004, 06:36 PM
> So you genuinely think that John Kerry wants to make things
> easier for the terrorists? What are you smoking?
>
in a way he does... Kerry wants the US to hide out in their.. ok, rather large portion of land, and practically stop international trade...

if the US suddenly stopped half of it's economic activity with the world, what do you think will happen? a new depression, but this time truly global, the terrorists will have the time of their life in the confusion and strife this will cause... and just think the number of angry people that the terrorists will be able to convert after the US closes it's trade borders.

<P ID="signature"></P>

(wraith_)
08-18-2004, 11:30 PM
http://www.worldaudit.org/countries/fi.htm

<P ID="signature"><hr width=350 align=left>
Remember, the Internet is a place where absolutely nothing happens.</P>

(wraith_)
08-18-2004, 11:38 PM
> ...Vehicular derailment!!!

Far Off Lands?
Foreign Leadership Camp?
Fish Lake?

<P ID="signature"><hr width=350 align=left>
Remember, the Internet is a place where absolutely nothing happens.</P>

MooglyGuy
08-19-2004, 01:31 AM
> > ...Vehicular derailment!!!
>
> Far Off Lands?
> Foreign Leadership Camp?
> Fish Lake?

Spectacular entertainment.

<P ID="signature">http://www.zophar.net/personal/mooglyguy/new_jersey.gif</P>

Mr. Saturn
09-03-2004, 09:47 PM
> (I did
> this with a friend and read Al Frankens god-forsaken book.)

What did you think of it?

<P ID="signature"><marquee direction=right scrollamount=14><img src=http://gifs.bestgraph.com/jeux-video/sonic/sonic-02.gif></marquee></p>

SirDaShadow
09-05-2004, 01:02 AM
> > (I did
> > this with a friend and read Al Frankens god-forsaken
> book.)
>
> What did you think of it?
>
I'm neither republican nor democrat, nor liberal or conservative.

But the following link utterly destroys this argument.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040904/ap_on_re_eu/russia_school_seizure_2

A shaken President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) made a rare and candid admission of Russian weakness Saturday in the face of an "all-out war" by terrorists after more than 340 people — nearly half of them children — were killed in a hostage-taking at a southern school.

Putin went on national television to tell Russians that they must mobilize against terrorism and promised wide-ranging reforms to toughen security forces and purge corruption.
"We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten," he said


Bottom line...if you show your enemies you are weak, they will destroy you. It's either destroy them first or be destroyed.

<P ID="signature"></P>

Crazy_MYKL
09-05-2004, 04:06 AM
> Bottom line...if you show your enemies you are weak, they
> will destroy you. It's either destroy them first or be
> destroyed.
>

This is exactly why "Peace through superior firepower" isn't an oxymoron.

si vis pacem, para bellum

<P ID="signature">---
I was at this restaurant. The sign said "Breakfast Anytime."
So I ordered French Toast in the Rennaissance.
---
This post rot26 encoded.</P>

Cornellius
09-05-2004, 04:15 AM
> America is the greatest country on Earth.


<img src=smilies/laff.gif>

<P ID="signature">__________________________________________________ _______________

'' What kind of freedom is bought with a gun ? '' - Bruce Dickinson </p><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Cornellius on 09/04/04 11:17 PM.</FONT></P>

Mr. Saturn
09-12-2004, 06:39 AM
> > (I did
> > this with a friend and read Al Frankens god-forsaken
> book.)
>
> What did you think of it?

<img src=http://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/images/icons/question.gif>

<P ID="signature"><marquee direction=right scrollamount=14><img src=http://gifs.bestgraph.com/jeux-video/sonic/sonic-02.gif></marquee></P>

Lenophis
09-12-2004, 08:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Well, who ever said I was happy with the Bush administration or the Republican party? I'm a conservative, not necessarily a lover of any party doctrine. I've said on several occasions that I believe Bush has made a lot of domestic errors, but I see him as much better than Kerry to take on this war.

<hr></blockquote>
What are you basing this on? Attack ads? Kerry's position on the war? Bush being a Christian? Bush being a Republican?

So let's see if I can sum up your position... Despite his ongoing errors, you are voting for him merely because of the war on terror... That's a little shortsighted, and there's a much bigger picture. You can't just focus on one issue to make it all right. EVERYTHING must be taken into account, including his bullshit domestic flaws and fuckups.

Bush has more or less kind of screwed over everyone in his native country. He decided to take many vacations, let the country fall apart internally, drive the country into debt, give a tax break that the country could not afford, wants to pass laws based on his religious beliefs, oversaw 3000 of his countrymen die with a massive intelligence failure, then went to war with a country using that same intelligence, went after the ones responsible for the attacks on the homeland, severely scaled back efforts about 4 months later, meanwhile the terrorists are still at large, commiting more crimes.

My question, when is the US gonna resume that war on terrorism? The majority of our forces are in Iraq (where terrorism did not reside before we invaded) so it'd be kind of hard to fight the terrorists.

Bush has the stance of "getting the terrorists before they can act," yet they'll still pulling off shit (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/terror-qaeda.html). That's JUST Al Qaeda btw, no other organized groups are a part of this article. I'm not being unfair, I'm just calling Bush on his own claim.

--Edit--
And btw, an all macho approach to solve every problem will not work. So what if Kerry said "sensitive," this isn't a dick measuring contest. Get over it.

<P ID="signature"><img src=http://www.cpinternet.com/~norwin/lenophis/sig.png>
"For lovers of irony; I'll just say one thing...wishes do come true." - Lobster Cowboy. Jade (http://disch.zophar.net)</p><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Lenophis on 09/12/04 05:34 AM.</FONT></P>

Mr. Saturn
09-21-2004, 05:16 PM
> > What did you think of it?
>


<P ID="signature"><marquee direction=right scrollamount=14><img src=http://gifs.bestgraph.com/jeux-video/sonic/sonic-02.gif></marquee></P>

Danoz
09-21-2004, 08:54 PM
> What did you think of it?

I think it's nothing more than a "scathingly partisan attack on the right-wing media and the Bush administration", in his own words. Other than that, it's joke book for already die-hard liberals. He especially enjoys taking people like Hannity and Coulter severely out of context, and makes character attacks based on alleged experiances that he had (which, of course, to a liberal reading becomes automatic fact). The accusations he made against Fox News, the people from Fox News say never happened-- but, of course, because Fox News is an evil, manipulative, right-wing source-- Franken the comedian is telling the 100% truth. I find it ironic that in a book about lying he lies so frequently-- and I can guaruntee you most people never even crack open the books he crtiticises, and Franken doesn't expect them to! He doesn't have to, because they'll buy it. I had the unique position of having read "Let Freedom Ring" when I read Frankens work, and Hannity has responded to them many times.

It's no suprise that the book of "Liars" title page pictures either conservatives or people from Fox News.


<P ID="signature">http://www.glasko.com/glasko2.jpg (http://www.glasko.com)</P>

Mr. Saturn
09-21-2004, 10:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I think it's nothing more than a "scathingly partisan attack
on the right-wing media and the Bush administration", in his
own words. Other than that, it's joke book for already
die-hard liberals. He especially enjoys taking people like
Hannity and Coulter severely out of context, and makes
character attacks based on alleged experiances that he had
(which, of course, to a liberal reading becomes automatic
fact). The accusations he made against Fox News, the people
from Fox News say never happened-- but, of course, because
Fox News is an evil, manipulative, right-wing source--
Franken the comedian is telling the 100% truth. I find it
ironic that in a book about lying he lies so frequently--
and I can guaruntee you most people never even crack open
the books he crtiticises, and Franken doesn't expect them
to! He doesn't have to, because they'll buy it. I had the
unique position of having read "Let Freedom Ring" when I
read Frankens work, and Hannity has responded to them many
times.


<hr></blockquote>

Examples of Franken's lies?

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Danoz
09-22-2004, 12:24 AM
> Examples of Franken's lies?

The entire argument on page 72-73 in an alleged "conversation" with Sean Hannity and Allen Colmes regarding some idiotic thing that Rush Limbaugh said, for example. If you'd really like to get into a full argument where we compare books, start a new thread and invite me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Franken-- in fact, he's funny... that's his job, he's a comedian. Still, he attacks O'Reilly, again with personal accounts of so-called conservations that we're just supposed to believe happened. He "proves" that Colmes is the lesser of the show based on one episode where Hannity says more words than Colmes in the hour :P.

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Mr. Saturn
09-22-2004, 12:44 AM
> The entire argument on page 72-73 in an alleged
> "conversation" with Sean Hannity and Allen Colmes regarding
> some idiotic thing that Rush Limbaugh said, for example.

How is this a lie?

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Mr. Saturn
09-25-2004, 07:03 AM
> How is this a lie?
>

Not only that but:

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I find it ironic that in a book about lying he lies so frequently

<hr></blockquote>

And this is the best you can do?

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Danoz
09-25-2004, 07:44 AM
When those people he had conversations with say the conversations are fabricated or didn't happen, you don't automatically trust the one throwing accusations. Both Hannity and Colmes said the conversation about Rush Limbaugh never happened, Hannity again with a one-on-one dialogue with Franken says the entire "paraphrasing" of a conversation never happened. Bill O' Reilly said Franken just outright lies about thier encounters. The only worthwhile chapter is an attack on Ann Coulter's partisan book, and she is simply terrible writer.

Franken has the burden of proof in this book-- and he falls short. You haven't done anything but sling questions over questions. How do you defend it?

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Mr. Saturn
09-25-2004, 07:58 AM
> When those people he had conversations with say the
> conversations are fabricated or didn't happen, you don't
> automatically trust the one throwing accusations.

Of course, but neither do you trust the reciever.

> Both Hannity and Colmes said the conversation about Rush Limbaugh
> never happened, Hannity again with a one-on-one dialogue
> with Franken says the entire "paraphrasing" of a
> conversation never happened.

Still no factual lies. Just hearsay.

> Bill O' Reilly said Franken
> just outright lies about thier encounters.

I can somewhat understand you believing Hannity and Colmes over Franken, as it's two against one, but this is just two people.

> How do you defend it?

I can't, because I haven't read it.

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Mr. Saturn
09-25-2004, 10:39 PM
Still waiting for those lies.

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Mr. Saturn
09-28-2004, 06:20 AM
> Still waiting for those lies.
>


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Danoz
09-28-2004, 06:27 AM
edit: "shit."

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Mr. Saturn
09-28-2004, 06:44 AM
> <img src=http://www.atpm.com/network/images/icon_flag.png> with a side of spin.

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Danoz
09-28-2004, 06:55 AM
Yea, sorry-- meant to say this:

"I'm done with this thread, so stop jumping it. When you're ready to read both the material Franken wrote, and the material of he condemns and criticizes, we'll continue this conversation."

I do all my writing in Word Processing to organize it, copied too much

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Mr. Saturn
09-28-2004, 07:23 AM
> "I'm done with this thread, so stop jumping it. When you're
> ready to read both the material Franken wrote, and the
> material of he condemns and criticizes, we'll continue this
> conversation."

That's completely irrelevant to this. Especially since this is not a question of whether I've read them or not. You claimed Franken frequently lies in his book. You still haven't produced any factual lies.

There are two ways I'll let this die. Show these "frequent" lies, or admit you were lying.

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Mr. Saturn
09-28-2004, 08:07 PM
> There are two ways I'll let this die. Show these "frequent"
> lies, or admit you were lying.
>


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Mr. Saturn
10-01-2004, 04:30 PM
> > There are two ways I'll let this die. Show these
> "frequent"
> > lies, or admit you were lying.



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Mr. Saturn
10-06-2004, 04:43 AM
> > > There are two ways I'll let this die. Show these
> > "frequent"
> > > lies, or admit you were lying.



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Lenophis
10-07-2004, 10:44 AM
Well how's this for news. Watching NBC Nightly News tonight, guess what a new report on WMD says?
"Iraq hasn't had WMD since the end of 1991. Saddam had capability but never restarted the program. He abandoned his nuclear program in 1995, and never restarted it. He gave everyone the wrong impression to keep Iran at bay." (BTW, Iran and Iraq don't like each other.)

So he:
A) Followed UN sanctions
B) Didn't have the WMD that everyone thought he had
C) Fooled everyone thinking he did
D) Successfully fended off an enemy with lies

Great job, Bush Administration. <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

<P ID="signature"><img src=http://www.cpinternet.com/~norwin/lenophis/sig.png>
"For lovers of irony; I'll just say one thing...wishes do come true." - Lobster Cowboy. Jade (http://disch.zophar.net)</P>

Danoz
10-08-2004, 04:37 AM
> Great job, Bush Administration.

Nice job! Except, you're forgetting that the same report supports President Bush's decision for war.

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Mr. Saturn
10-08-2004, 05:26 AM
> > > > There are two ways I'll let this die. Show these
> > > "frequent"
> > > > lies, or admit you were lying.

You really do have the moral clarity, and the steadfast resolve to face
problems head on. <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

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Mr. Saturn
10-10-2004, 07:41 AM
> > > > > There are two ways I'll let this die. Show these
> > > > "frequent"
> > > > > lies, or admit you were lying.


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mrfreeze
10-10-2004, 09:19 AM
> > > > > > There are two ways I'll let this die. Show these
> > > > > "frequent"
> > > > > > lies, or admit you were lying.
>
Will you please just answer this damn thread already Danoz? I keep on clicking it every few days thinking there is going to be some intelligent new insight in it, but instead it's the same bump over and over. Either answer him or admit you were wrong, or just argue it over.

<P ID="signature">Are you doing nothing? Or something?</P>

Mr. Saturn
10-10-2004, 04:14 PM
> Will you please just answer this damn thread already Danoz?
> I keep on clicking it every few days thinking there is going
> to be some intelligent new insight in it, but instead it's
> the same bump over and over. Either answer him or admit you
> were wrong, or just argue it over.

I apologize about this. I asked a mod to sticky it, on account of this exact situation, but he said no.

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Mr. Saturn
10-12-2004, 06:09 PM
> > > > > > There are two ways I'll let this die. Show these
> > > > > "frequent"
> > > > > > lies, or admit you were lying.
>


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Mr. Saturn
10-13-2004, 02:19 AM
I've made my point. Lies are only lies when they come out of evil LIBRULS~!11 mouths.


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MooglyGuy
10-13-2004, 04:44 AM
> I've made my point. Lies are only lies when they come out of
> evil LIBRULS~!11 mouths.
>


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