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El-Doble-O
07-18-2004, 02:50 PM
Is there anyway, maybe a patch or a hack, that can make Seiken Densetsu 3 a 3-player game as opposed to a 2-player game?

Or...is there anyone that can make Seiken Densetsu 3 a 3-player game?

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Ugly Joe
07-18-2004, 04:49 PM
Are you positive it isn't already? Seiken Densetsu 2 (SoM) was 3 player, I don't see why they would remove it.

Edit: Checked it in Zsnes, doesn't seem to be three player at all. Also checked the manual and it doesn't seem to mention a 3 player mode anywhere (though I could be wrong as I can't read japanese -- the directions for the 'start' button only had the number 2 in its description, no 3s).

My guess is that you can't use 3 players. Looking at the 2 player hack for Secret of Evermore, I'd also guess that a 3 player hack isn't impossible, but no on has done so.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Ugly Joe on 07/18/04 12:24 PM.</FONT></P>

icenine0
07-18-2004, 09:47 PM
As I understand it, Secret of Evermore runs on a h4x0r3d SoM engine, so implementing 2-player mode was possible by comparing its code to SoM's and modifying the appropriate bits.

AFAIK, Seiken Densetsu 3 runs on different software, so implementing 3 players would require a bigtime overhaul.

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Ugly Joe
07-18-2004, 09:52 PM
> AFAIK, Seiken Densetsu 3 runs on different software, so
> implementing 3 players would require a bigtime overhaul.

Yeah, I thought of that as I was typing it. That's why I put "not impossible" as opposed to "possible". Still weird that they would remove the option for it, though, unless handling a third controller's input is a lot harder to code than I think it is.

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Disch
07-18-2004, 10:03 PM
> Yeah, I thought of that as I was typing it. That's why I
> put "not impossible" as opposed to "possible". Still weird
> that they would remove the option for it, though, unless
> handling a third controller's input is a lot harder to code
> than I think it is.

Maybe the game was too heavy already. The gameplay can get kind of sluggish at times in SD3. Maybe putting in 3 Player action might have slowed it down even more.

But then again... putting in input for Player 3 doesn't seem any harder than having a CPU controlled player 3 (which the game does anyway)... so who knows.

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FuSoYa
07-19-2004, 04:45 AM
> ...so implementing 2-player mode was possible by
> comparing its code to SoM's and modifying the appropriate
> bits.
>

Well, that's news to me. Is there another 2 player hack for SoE that I'm unaware of? ;)

SoE was developed in America, so I don't think it would have been all that worthwhile looking at SoM's code.

And to answer the first poster's emailed question, no I don't currently plan to do a 3 player patch for SD3. I never really got into SD3, and I rather prefer to work on games that I've actually played all the way through. It's a popular game though, so I'd be very surprised if no one ever attempts it.


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MegaManJuno
07-19-2004, 05:03 AM
> SoE was developed in America, so I don't think it would have
> been all that worthwhile looking at SoM's code.

Yes, by the short-lived Square USA team based in (I think) Los Angeles or thereabouts.

I do think the other post was correct though that they took the Secret of Mana/Seiken Densetsu 2 engine and modified it for their purposes though. It was all part of the greater whole of Square, so the possibility of the 2 games sharing some code isn't entirely out of the question.

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JCE3000GT
07-19-2004, 05:59 AM
> > SoE was developed in America, so I don't think it would
> have
> > been all that worthwhile looking at SoM's code.
>
> Yes, by the short-lived Square USA team based in (I think)
> Los Angeles or thereabouts.

Redmond, Washington. As far as I'm aware of...

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MegaManJuno
07-19-2004, 06:11 AM
> Redmond, Washington. As far as I'm aware of...

Ah... yeah you may be right. Now that I think of it, I think the Square LA office was the one responsible for the movie...


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icenine0
07-19-2004, 06:50 AM
> Well, that's news to me. Is there another 2 player hack for
> SoE that I'm unaware of? ;)

I am humbled, most honourable FuSoYa.

Judging from the http://www.google.fm/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22secret+of+evermore%22+%22secret+of+mana%22+en gine&btnG=Searchnumber of articles</A> claiming Secret of Evermore's engine was based on Secret of Mana's, and the fact that the two games do play very similarly, I always assumed you just found the 'ghost' of two-player mode left over by Secret of Mana and enabled it. Did you actually manually hack in all of the controls? If so, I am very impressed.

<P ID="signature">The more often you fail, the sweeter the taste of success!</P>

FuSoYa
07-20-2004, 06:09 AM
> assumed you just found the 'ghost' of two-player mode left
> over by Secret of Mana and enabled it. Did you actually
> manually hack in all of the controls? If so, I am very
> impressed.

There was no existing 2 player code that I could find. Despite that, replacing the controller input ASM to read from both controllers was relatively easy. A bit of RAM had to be used to store the extra input and keep track of which player had which character, as the game only cared about which character had the camera focus. Diverting the input to the two characters for moving/fighting and turning off the AI also wasn't too difficult, as the original game already lets you take control of the dog so it pretty much had to have existing code for at least interpreting controller input for either character (although I did have to modify them, to use the correct input for each). Getting the rest of the game to cope with 2 human players though... -_-

Probably the biggest issue was fixing the multiple character freezing bugs while testing the patch. It was caused by the game freezing a player's character to talk to someone, then unfreezing the wrong character when the text window went away due to the game using some odd method or function instead of the regular one that I had modified. This was on top of getting the game to even recognize and display the correct text depending on whether the dog or boy was trying to do the talking (every time I thought I had it fixed, I'd discover some other random person a few days later that used a completely separate bit of code), not to mention the action buffer overflow issue (while one player talks to someone, the second player tries to talk to someone else or leave the area x times, causing the game to crash). And of course, having to track down and modify just about every single place in the game it tried to interpret the controller input (while that wasn't unexpected, practically every single menu screen had its own separate routine that had to be diverted).

Although there were some problems I somehow caused myself that I had to fix, like a certain pyramid issue (dog enters pyramid, turns into boy and becomes trapped, plus character outside is frozen... after tracing the strange code that's supposed to handle character switching in that area, I just ended up commenting out most of my own select button code and working around how the game handles it).

But I did find something of interest when I examined VRAM. At the time I was trying to find a place to fit in a couple extra tiles for indicating which player had which character. To my surprise, I discovered a few numbered tiles (1-3) drawn on the ends of charge gauges already in there. At first glance I thought they might have been left over from early plans for multiplayer support. But given that there were also flipped tiles intended for the other side of the charge gauge, I realized it's just as likely they were meant as an alternate method of displaying the weapon charge. But either way, it was nice of the designers to leave the tiles in, as they came in handy.


Er, sorry to ramble... ^^ But while it was a fairly short project, it was still rather interesting trying to get 2 player capabilities into SoE.


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El-Doble-O
07-20-2004, 03:29 PM
> And to answer the first poster's emailed question, no I
> don't currently plan to do a 3 player patch for SD3. I
> never really got into SD3, and I rather prefer to work on
> games that I've actually played all the way through. It's a
> popular game though, so I'd be very surprised if no one ever
> attempts it.

Well thats alright, I just hope someone eventually is able to create a hack or a patch that allows a 3rd player to take control of the remaining character. It would be so nice if my friends and I could beat the game together as we did Secret of Mana. Besides that, CPUs really are no help at all. But until then, four swords will just have to last me as a multiplayer adventure.

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parlance
12-02-2006, 10:48 AM
Boy, I think I'm a little late, but better late than never as they say.

The facts : SOM3 did NOT support 3 human players even though there are 3 characters in the party (for some really stupid reason they took it out), but with some hours hacking away, it does now!

Enjoy!

http://members.shaw.ca/cfriesen5/som3_3_player_ips.rar


<P ID="signature"></P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by CEpeep on 12/02/06 04:57 PM.</FONT></P>