Race.

[Danoz]

Funny, that in the land of the free people make race an issue when it's not. We could plug out statistics all day long, it all comes down to the fact that we're the same under our skin covers. Opportunities are now equally distributed. Affirmative Action is racist in the way that it assumes black men and women are incapable of competing in this country without a “handicap”, and it also assumes bogus ideas of subconscious discrimination. These differences are now the result of people victimizing themselves because society shifts their accountability to statistics and history long passed.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[juggaleaux]

> We could plug out statistics all day long, it all comes down to the fact that we're the same
> under our skin covers

Bullshit. We are not the same.

Blacks have a more difficult time landing well-paying jobs, not due to skill, but due to prejudice. Therefore, most blacks are stuck working low-end jobs, living in low-income housing. And it's not necessarily their fault. When you live in a slum, you are surrounded by crime in the forms of thieves, gangs, and it's difficult to even walk home without having to follow many unwritten rules of how to walk home: what to look at, how to walk, what you can wear, etc to avoid being victimized. Basically there is no choice but to become a criminal yourself to survive.

The only people the black culture can blame for lack of professional success is themselves. Sagging pants, rap music, heavy slang, and basically "keeping it gutta" may fly in the hood, but will get you nowhere in the marketplace. Therefore, most are stuck living a life of crime as a risky alternative to make ends meet. The only thing a black man can do to break free of this system is dress himself nice and educate himself well. The problem is that most won't do this, because of the heavy urban influence around him. If all your friends are gangstas, you sure will have a difficult time studying to be a lawyer. Escaping this system could result in your being a "sellout," and shunned from your neighborhood, where returning could get you beaten.

As for racism, some whites are racist against urban lifestyles because I'd bet they are threatened by it. I've found that it's really quite harmless once you get to know it. Either that, or they refuse to let go of old pre-civil war traditions. Hey, you redneck, you can put that rebel flag down. We lost that war YEARS ago. Most usually reply with "This flag isn't about slavery, it's about Southern heritage." One of my black friends went around waving a rebel flag saying, "Oh yeah? Well I'm proud to be from Louisiana too! Guess I'll wave this as I please as well!" The rednecks were bewildered; I laughed my ass off in delight.

Black racism against whites is usually caused by the ignorance by the white people. If everywhere a black guy goes, white people say, "Yo, what up, G-dog?" he will begin to dislike whites and their overwhelming ignorance of black culture.

To sum it all up, we might be all the same under the skin AT BIRTH, but our surroundings, lifestyle, and experience change all that very quickly.

<P ID="signature"><div align=right><a href=http://www.elazulspad.net/j>.</a></div></P>

[Reaper man]

> Hey, you redneck, you can put that rebel
> flag down. We lost that war YEARS ago.


mother, fucking, <img src=smilies/werd.gif>

<P ID="signature"><center>
sig not found...</center></P>

[SpaceTiger]

I've rarely seen this country's racial problem expressed so eloquently. I totally agree. <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[Danoz]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Blacks have a more difficult time landing well-paying jobs, not due to skill, but due to prejudice.

<hr></blockquote>
By who? Everybody? Everybody is prejudice? I can tell you right off that at my work, the best man and the hardest worker always moves up the ladder first. We're the same in the fact that we're all of equal intelligence and ability. I just don't see the same level of conspiracy that the Jessy Jackson's and Al Sharpton's of the world preach every day. Does racism exist? Of course it does... but certainly not on a scale that would require a different kind of unfair discrimination-- something as blatantly off-base as affirmative action. Best man for the job is something I will always preach, and it certainly isn't fair to give somebody a job or a rank simply because they're skin is black, OR white for that matter.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Therefore, most blacks are stuck working low-end jobs, living in low-income housing. And it's not necessarily their fault. When you live in a slum, you are surrounded by crime in the forms of thieves, gangs, and it's difficult to even walk home without having to follow many unwritten rules of how to walk home: what to look at, how to walk, what you can wear, etc to avoid being victimized. Basically there is no choice but to become a criminal yourself to survive.

<hr></blockquote>
Right, but if it's a problem with environment and location then it's not racial, and we should be treating it like that. Let's also make it clear that your use of the words "no choice" totally makes people who choose crime unaccountable for their actions. You know, white people live in "slums" also... but in this country a man can rise out of that with determination and legitimate work. The problems you're mentioning have nothing to do with race. Blacks certainly weren't the only people discriminated against in this country, "Irish Catholics Need Not Apply" rings a bell in my ancestry.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The only people the black culture can blame for lack of professional success is themselves. Sagging pants, rap music, heavy slang, and basically "keeping it gutta" may fly in the hood, but will get you nowhere in the marketplace. Therefore, most are stuck living a life of crime as a risky alternative to make ends meet. The only thing a black man can do to break free of this system is dress himself nice and educate himself well. The problem is that most won't do this, because of the heavy urban influence around him. If all your friends are gangstas, you sure will have a difficult time studying to be a lawyer. Escaping this system could result in your being a "sellout," and shunned from your neighborhood, where returning could get you beaten.

<hr></blockquote>
Again, purely having to do with where any person grows up. However, these are very good points. The problem, is that there's a strong number of people of other races that do all of those things-- the sagging pants, the rap music, slang... these are hardly focused solely on a black culture. (And I don't use the word "African America", because not one black person I know promotes the politically correct term.)

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

As for racism, some whites are racist against urban lifestyles because I'd bet they are threatened by it. I've found that it's really quite harmless once you get to know it. Either that, or they refuse to let go of old pre-civil war traditions. Hey, you redneck, you can put that rebel flag down. We lost that war YEARS ago. Most usually reply with "This flag isn't about slavery, it's about Southern heritage." One of my black friends went around waving a rebel flag saying, "Oh yeah? Well I'm proud to be from Louisiana too! Guess I'll wave this as I please as well!" The rednecks were bewildered; I laughed my ass off in delight.

<hr></blockquote>
Nobody should be waving that God-forsaken flag around, you may as well fly a swastika to promote "German heritage". Second, I understand that there's a culture-- but I don't see the threat. Also, there can't be a huge percentage of people still caught up in the confederacy.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Black racism against whites is usually caused by the ignorance by the white people. If everywhere a black guy goes, white people say, "Yo, what up, G-dog?" he will begin to dislike whites and their overwhelming ignorance of black culture.

<hr></blockquote>
Black racism against whites is equally as ignorant and is perpetuated by the comedic media and a mindset that makes people believe they're victims. I got into a political conversation with a girl once about President Bush, and she actually said, "Hey, I'm black, where's mine". Things like affirmative action make the problem worse, because they force people to believe they are owed something. Who's going to work hard if they're told from birth that the world owes them a living?
In conclusion I'd like you to help me figure out a solution that ISN'T affirmative action, because I think we can agree on the fact that something like that could only create more racism.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[Danoz]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I've rarely seen this country's racial problem expressed so eloquently. I totally agree.

<hr></blockquote>
All he did was lay out the problem and express the argument, "black people are purely products of their environment" making accountability towards the individual totally lost. In the end the argument has nothing to do with race, but with the lower class.


<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[SpaceTiger]

> All he did was lay out the problem and express the argument,
> "black people are purely products of their environment"
> making accountability towards the individual totally lost.

At what point did he say that people weren't accountable for their actions?


> In the end the argument has nothing to do with race, but
> with the lower class.

I disagree, and I thought he addressed that very well. The argument is about both race and class.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[Danoz]

> At what point did he say that people weren't accountable for
> their actions?

"Basically there is no choice but to become a criminal yourself to survive." -- People always have a choice whether or not to do immoral things. Having "no choice" in a situation strips accountablity.

"Black racism against whites is usually caused by the ignorance by the white people." White people are racist because they're either afraid or stupid. Black people are racist because of white people.

Now, he did say-- "The only people the black culture can blame for lack of professional success is themselves." but he continued with; "Therefore, most are stuck living a life of crime as a risky alternative to make ends meet." Most are "stuck", once again alluding to a lack of choice, no accountability. Sure, finding and keeping a job is harder than selling drugs... that doesn't mean there's no choice.

I have a friend in college who says he's tempted to make money quick and easily as opposed to slaving over a stove at a local diner... but he doesn't do it... and he certainly isn't forced to do anything.



<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[juggaleaux]

> In the end the argument has nothing to do with race, but with the lower class.

No. I said "black people" right out. I specifically designated the problems that a black youth would have growing up in a bad environment, and how he could try to break free from such stereotypes and be successful. I was showing how the lives of the average black differ from the average white, and why even though we're all human, we are different. (For the record, I don't mean to imply that the average black person is a criminal. You know what I mean.)

> All he did was lay out the problem and express the argument
> "black people are purely products of their environment"

EXACTLY. That's exactly what counters your post that "all races are the same under the skin." We are not the same. And saying so isn't racist.

<P ID="signature"><div align=right><a href=http://www.elazulspad.net/j>.</a></div></P>

[juggaleaux]

> Black people are racist because of white people.

<img src=smilies/laff.gif>

<P ID="signature"><div align=right><a href=http://www.elazulspad.net/j>.</a></div></P>

[Danoz]

> > Black people are racist because of white people.

Why laugh? That's virtually what you said. Saying that black people are racist because white people are ignorant. There should be no racism on either side.


<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[Danoz]

> No. I said "black people" right out. I specifically
> designated the problems that a black youth would have
> growing up in a bad environment, and how he could try to
> break free from such stereotypes and be successful.

A white person would suffer those same stereotypes if he came from the same environment. The stereotypes are created by actions, not skin color. I don't look at a black person and automatically think up stereotypes.

> I was
> showing how the lives of the average black differ from the
> average white, and why even though we're all human, we are
> different. (For the record, I don't mean to imply that the
> average black person is a criminal. You know what I mean.)

Right, but you implied that the ones who are criminal have no choice.

> EXACTLY. That's exactly what counters your post that "all
> races are the same under the skin." We are not the same. And
> saying so isn't racist.

Nobody is the same, but race does not measure intellect or ability.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[juggaleaux]

> Saying that black people are racist because white people are ignorant.

Racism, like any prejudice, is derived from ignorance. Assuming all Japanese are good at math, or that all Egyptians wear "diapers on their heads" are examples of ignorant prejudices. If a racist person actually took the time to learn about other cultures/races, they may accept them and stop being bigoted.

> There should be no racism on either side.

There shouldn't. But you know why there is?

Because if some white guys are leaning on a truck one day putting down some beers, and one of them makes a racist joke, none of them are going to challenge it and say, "Gosh! You should take that back! Black people aren't like that at all! In fact, (statistic here)." Same probably goes the other way around. Even if someone isn't racist, they may laugh at a racist joke to fit in, and nothing is done.

I'm done with replying to you here, because while most people got the general idea of what I said, you didn't. You are picking this thing apart, and I'm not gonna sit here and continue to explain and defend such obvious and simple ideals.

<P ID="signature"><div align=right><a href=http://www.elazulspad.net/j>.</a></div></P>

[Fla Flash]

You live up north, don't you?
Racism exists, it's very real and you're either blind or a fool if you can't see that.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.

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[Fla Flash]

The point he made, actually pretty well, is OPPORTUNITY is the difference....
Yes, we're all different from different ethnic and racial backgrounds. But we all don't have the same chances.
Some have better chances due to the color of their skin.
And some don't.

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[Fla Flash]

I could not have said it better myself. You rock.

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[maq112k2]

> Racism, like any prejudice, is derived from ignorance.
> Assuming all Japanese are good at math, or that all

That's not true! They can just make kick-ass robots that transform into cars when they're not needed. :P

<P ID="signature"></P>

[JadussD]

> Opportunities are now equally
> distributed.

(names changed but otherwise, it's allt true)

[BLACKS ARE SITTING ON ONE SIDE OF THE ROOM, WHITES ON ANOTHER, MEXICANS ARE JUST KIND OF MINGLED ABOUT]

[TYRONE, an atheltic looking black kid of about 18 years of age sits down to hand Katie, a white girl with colored hair a copy of A Beautiful Mind]

[Aaron and Joey, two white people with hair as short as the school alllows glare at him]

Tyrone: Here, I finally brought it back, good book.

Aaron: That seat is taken.

Joey: Don't you want to sit with your own kind?

Tyrone: (Unflinching) Look, if you want me out of here, I ain't leaving on my own, so you're gonna have to do something about it.

Joey: (glares)

[Tyrone sits silently while everyone eats lunch in a tense mood]

[5 minutes later, Tyrone gets up and leaves]

Scene 2:

[Joey is drawing a swastika on the cover of his yearbook with washable marker]

Aaron: No no no! You're doing it wrong! (Wipes off Joey's swastika with his hand)

Joey: Huh?

Aaron: It's like this: (Starts drawing large, more carefully-crafted swastika.)....you see, it's tilted at this angle....and then....perfecto!

Joey: Damn, that's pretty fucking good.

Aaron (holding yearbook with swastik aloft, shouting very loudly): I AM SUPERIOR!

[No one does anything]

Scene 3:

Joey: My dad got brain surgery the other day, they shaved his head for it and then they put huge metalstaples all across the top when they closed it.

Aaron: Holy shit, that's awesome.

Joey: Yeah, I told him that he's like the baddest-ass skinhead ever, I was like "Holy shit Dad, no niggers would even think about fucking with you if you have a bunch of huge fucking staples across your head."

Aaron: Hahahahahaha

Joey: Yeah, and the thing is, all he's been doing the last three days is screaming a lot and yelling about how much he hates niggers.

Aaron: Hahahahaha, are you for real.

Joey: Yeah, it's hilarious.

Scene 4:

[Almost all black people in the room stand up and start cheering and clapping their hands for seemingly no reason.]

Katie: (starts clapping her hands) Wooooo! I have no idea what's going on.

Melissa: Hey stop that! Don't be like them, you're better than them, be white, be proud!

Katie: (shrugs)

Joey: Yeah, I'm not fucking clapping to whatever stupid monkey shit they're going on about.

Scene 5:

[Two white kids start scuffling]

[Scuffle is broken up]

Scene 6:

[Two black kids start scuffling in roughly the same manner]

[Scuffle is broken up both students are hauled off and aren't seen for a few days]

<P ID="signature"><HR>
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[Lenophis]

Frosting over the cake, Danoz. If there is equal opportunity in every aspect, as you have said, then why does the state of Michigan have affirmative action? Why did the NFL throw in the rule that each team must interview at least one minority candidate? Simple, "because the situation is not equal." I love that quote. <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif> The playing field is not level, and it won't be at the rate we're going.

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Is there something I'm missing out on? Head to Slick Productions (http://disch.zophar.net) and check out Jade.</P>

[Danoz]

What do you propose? I'm really trying to gain an answer to this question that certainly isn't affirmative action (or a stronger version of it). And what do you mean we aren't headed in the right direction? Racism dies down a little further with every passing year. It's things like affirmative action that twart that progress.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[Gavin_86]

*gavin agrees with danoz*

all i'm going to say about that...

<P ID="signature"><center>I'm just a Paranoid Android watching through my superb crystal viewing glass

[ http://gavin.panicus.orgGavin.Panicus.org</a> ]</center></P>

[Lenophis]

It's because people are stubborn. <img src=smilies/headshake.gif> Oh believe me, if it were plain and simple, then this wouldn't be an issue. But because people still teach hate and hold on to old traditions, racism, prejudgice, etc, they will exist. Once racism truely dies off, I will rejoice with all that I am. But I fear that day will be beyond my lifetime, sadly. <img src=smilies/banghead.gif> My apologies for sounding like the big downer.

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[The 9th Sage]

> Affirmative Action is racist in the way that it
> assumes black men and women are incapable of competing in
> this country without a “handicap”, and it also assumes bogus
> ideas of subconscious discrimination.

I've always thought this was ironic. Stamp out racism in one form by using racism in a different form. Really weird. :P

<P ID="signature"><img src=http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/zdd2/images/2_percent_more.txt></P>

[UncleOral]

Prejudice is everywhere, you can't escape it. You will be hard pressed to find a human being that isn't, in some way or another, prejudiced.
The main issue is that people fear and for the most part do not respect things they do not understand. Look at religion - people are afraid of death, they cannot explain it, it's impossible.
As a result, they will try to justify their life and afterlife in some way so they can live their lives without the shadow of death clouding their minds every second of their existance, effectively making them miserable.
A good example of prejudice happened to me a month back when I were discussing the "Rest States" from WoW in the PA forums, after much debate with a forumer and much "luring", I finaly got him to say what was evident was on his mind the whole time, he said;

"You're right. I don't respect 24/7 players one fucking tiny little bit. They have willingly entered into a crippling level of addiction and unsympathetic bastard that I am, I will poke fun at them"

This is classic, it explains exactly what I mean; he do not understand how anyone can sit in front of a computer and play games for 20 hours a day, so he do not respect it, and when he do not respect it, he is magically entitled to beat it down at every opportunity and treat it like it would be the choice of a depraved and inferior human being.
It is the exact same reasoning KKK has, and to find it from a seemingly intelligent poster of that magnitude (he had very good points earlier, even though I knew from the start he was an ass) should be enough to make people think and realize you will find prejudice and racism everywhere. I'm pretty sure few board members will be able to comprehend why anyone would play games 20 hours a day, but the least one can do is respect that it is their choice. This guy did not, and that, at least to me, makes him just as bad as a racist.

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[SirDaShadow]

> > Opportunities are now equally
> > distributed.
> (names changed but otherwise, it's allt true)
A smaller version of those scenes happens every day, everywhere. The problem is, no one does nothing about it. And everyone is at fault for that. If someone would do the swastika thing I would stop them on their tracks....and I'm Puerto Rican <img src=smilies/cwm11.gif>

<P ID="signature"></P>

[HUMANOID]

there is only one race of you people on your planet, human, and there are only two kinds, male and female. you are all individually different.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[TheRobbit]

That is a mediocre analogy or belief some things are destructive and not everything needs to be approved up just because adults choose to do it.

"You're right. I don't respect steroid users one fucking tiny little bit. They have willingly entered into a crippling level of addiction and unsympathetic bastard that I am, I will poke fun at them"

Not every negative statement is an act of prejudice. [url]http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?prejudice[/ul] Now by all technicality I don't think his statement is an uninformed one. I'm sure as a gamer he knows what playing video games consists of and it doesn't seem unreasonable to me as part of a group that he belongs to disrespect a subsection of that group. This isn't a soccer mom whining about how Doom made here darling go crazy and kill people. It's a gamer saying "I don't respect gamers who play 24/7". If I was an athelete who lead a normal life I wouldn't respect steroid users either.

Saying that attitude is similar to that of the KKK is ridiculous. The KKK are racists for fucks sake, they think it's some kind of conspiracy that minorities are stealing their jobs and corrupting their youth and that those races are genetically inferior.

It's apples and oranges, one belief system is insane, the other is just being an asshole. You can do a lot of things alright, but when you take one thing and put it in the forefront of your life where it dominates to such an extreme. It can be anything, drugs, works, video games, working out, watching TV. Looking down at people who can't practice a little moderation isn't prejudice. Half of those people don't have a real probably to fall back on, no gene to blame their habits on, they just lack discipline. If I can't say "look those morons have a problem" and you say "they're adults they can do whatever they fucking want" then I would say "then I can make fun of their stupid ass life choices".

I mean haven't you ever heard respect is earned? How much respect can you earn crushing mobs for 20hours a day?

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted</P>

[TheRobbit]

One of the problems is we look at the people in power, old white men. See you and I we're young we're raised to know that race doesn't matter. I don't hate groups but individuals piss me off. The people in power don't go around screaming how minorities are inferior, but people are set in there ways by a certain age and very few ever change. Those old white guys in power now 20 - 30 years ago were middle aged white guys in power. Things weren't so even then and those bastards got to be racist and so those programs got instituted because of their actions.

The problem is now that certain groups won't let our generation have a little peace on the matter. Because the last 2 generations are still in power and they still do crummy things. We stil have to suffer for it.

Maybe our grandchildren won't have to put up with it.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted</P>

[TheRobbit]

My problem in my peace loving world is I would be too shocked to do anything immediately. So would a lot of other people.

I'm not a good one to talk about racial issues. But it's funny how color discrimination is so wrong, yet class discrimination is just as rampant and no one cares about that.

I went to a tiny school in Northern Michigan we didn't have any black students, but our school wasn't some great white united utopia.

If you looked at our lunch room, the geeks sat together, the jocks sat together, and the girls sat together, and each according to thier subgroups within.

I'm sure that Tyrone kid could have gone to another table with white kids and had been fine.

The other problem is you have to realize that the lunch room situation is two ways call it voluntary segregation or whatever. I'm not saying that it's right but I would be willing to bet that the reverse situation happens just as often "hey cracker don't you want to go sit with your own kind?".


<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted</P>

[TheRobbit]

> Black racism against whites is usually caused by the
> ignorance by the white people. If everywhere a black guy
> goes, white people say, "Yo, what up, G-dog?" he will begin
> to dislike whites and their overwhelming ignorance of black
> culture.

WoW Bullshit, black racism is the fault of white people? While I'm sure it's true sometimes. Blacks can't be racists just because like whites or any other invidiual or group they are prone to being petty and small minded. Blacks certainly could never be racists because they were taught from birth white people were son of a bitches?

We could never hope to guess why racsist black people are racist, but I kind of doubt that white people annoy them into it. Because every white person condescends to their culture? Or is it just Jerry the dumbass? If a black guys get's all racist because some guy is a dumbass I'd say he was a shitty person to begin with.

There's no such thing as always or never in society. In society nothing always or never happens. Certainly some white people piss black people off because they act like morons, but most do not and if you start hating a group because of a few you're a dipshit.

And while I may be ignorant of urban culture, I'm not pissed at the urbanites (and just people in general) for being ignorant about my geek culture.

Hatred as a response to ignorance is pathetic and insulting to people who might have a legitimate bitch.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted</P>

[SpaceTiger]

> Blacks can't be racists
> just because like whites or any other invidiual or group
> they are prone to being petty and small minded. Blacks
> certainly could never be racists because they were taught
> from birth white people were son of a bitches?

That's somewhat different. There's no question about there being animosity towards white people in the black community, but racism also concerns status and power. Blacks rarely look down on white people in the same sense that white people do to blacks. In fact, it's been shown that, on average, even black people will subconsciously view other black people as having a lower status. A black salesman will more readily approach a white customer. A black boss will be more critical of black employees.

I believe that bigotry is on its way out. Even if it were to disappear, however, these prejudices may still remain and we would still have a problem.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[TheRobbit]

Maybe he does live up north. I live up north anyway.

So are you trying to say us northerners don't have racism or we don't have black people?

I actually live in an all black neighbor hood. And while it may bite me in the ass someday I don't bother to lock my car in my driveway. Two years and no problem, because it's a good neighborhood.

I'm sure half the time it is an issue of location and not race. There are certainly "bad parts of town" in Flint and Detroit. Some of what Danoz says is truer than you think.

I don't think he's saying racism doesn't exist. What he's saying is instead of people hating blacks because they're black. They start being racist for more tangible reasons and because of the area they live in they can group blacks into one pretty common group.

It's human nature to make those kinds of groupings and to be general. There are always exceptions to the rule.
If I'm hiring at my BMW dealership and some guy comes in talking urbanspeak (white, black, latine or wahetever). You know how l33tspeak is annoying? If someone can't cut their bullshit for 5 seconds to talk to me in english I just want them to shut the fuck up and get out.

Of course the guy who is victimized by my attitude will go on about race or something. No one is going to be critical of themselves.

But to support Danoz's theories "birds of a feather flock together" and this is much truer than you may admit. And it applies to everyone. Bringing race into it is just goddamn stupid.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by TheRobbit on 06/29/04 02:06 PM.</FONT></P>

[TheRobbit]

> I believe that bigotry is on its way out. Even if it were
> to disappear, however, these prejudices may still remain and
> we would still have a problem.
>

I wonder if blacks do that because our culture is so racist we teach black people to discriminate against "their" race or if it's because it's because of something else. (I don't know how to word it without sounding like a cock.) Because they have t put up with so much crap from other black people they can't help but react towards each other in a negative way?

I mean I know there are groups of white people I don't like to deal with and my natural inclination is to treat them as well as I can but not much better than dirt. Guys that go on about how the want to fuck so and so for example. I hate guys like that so I can't but help look down at them.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted</P>

[SpaceTiger]

> I mean I know there are groups of white people I don't like
> to deal with and my natural inclination is to treat them as
> well as I can but not much better than dirt. Guys that go on
> about how the want to fuck so and so for example. I hate
> guys like that so I can't but help look down at them.

Absolutely, there is prejudice all over the place. I think many people are under the impression that it's limited to race, gender, and sexuality, but I've seen/had many more forms of prejudice than that. One form that is commonly ignored is white on white (usually class-based). Most people don't even think twice about calling someone a "redneck" or "white trash," but realistically, those words aren't any better than "nigger."

There's also political prejudice, anti-intelliectualism, ethnocentrism, appearance-based prejudice (e.g. height, weight, overall attractiveness), religious prejudice, and probably many more. Honestly, I think we're wired to judge and stereotype... it must have had an evolutionary advantage of some sort. Either way, we should probably try to avoid it whenever it arises.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[TheRobbit]

Well it's kind of how I don't like most alchohol, there are a few things I do like though. But I say alchohol sucks, it's a general statement that's not entirely true but most alchohol does suck to me, and it's just easier to say that rather then list everything I do and don't like.

I think people would have no opinion and no personality if they acknowledged constant exceptions to general rules they law down.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted
http://rob.therobbit.com</P>

[UncleOral]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

That is a mediocre analogy or belief some things are
destructive and not everything needs to be approved up just
because adults choose to do it.

<hr></blockquote>

Who the hell are you or him to judge what can be condemned or not? If it doesn't hurt anyone, it's none of your concern and their choice.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

"You're right. I don't respect steroid users one fucking
tiny little bit. They have willingly entered into a
crippling level of addiction and unsympathetic bastard that
I am, I will poke fun at them"

If I was an athelete who lead a normal life I wouldn't
respect steroid users either.


<hr></blockquote>

And my analogies are mediocre and ridiculous? <img src=smilies/upeyes.gif>
See, steroids are artificial enhancers, as a powergamer compared to the average gamer, I just put in more effort and prioritize games more. The correct example in that statement is simply a normal person compared to an athlete.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Not every negative statement is an act of prejudice.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?prejudice

<hr></blockquote>

Correct, however this situation is most certainly the case:

1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

He fits the example, especially the bolded part, key word being "irrational".

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Now by all technicality I don't think his statement is an
uninformed one. I'm sure as a gamer he knows what playing
video games consists of and it doesn't seem unreasonable to
me as part of a group that he belongs to disrespect a
subsection of that group. This isn't a soccer mom whining
about how Doom made here darling go crazy and kill people.
It's a gamer saying "I don't respect gamers who play 24/7".

<hr></blockquote>

And by the same reasoning, we should disrespect everyone and their dog who puts in more effort than anyone else in life.
I've asked this question so many times before, and I've never gotten an answer; why do people care if I'm higher level than them in a game if said game is "just a game"?

Oh, and by the way, since I've pretty much heard all the various de-railings that usualy follows after that question: don't even try the condescending excuse that you care about the poor people, most powergamers don't have an addiction (you could argue if any powergamers has it at all, but then we'd go into psycho-babble about what can be considered addiction or not, but I digress).

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Saying that attitude is similar to that of the KKK is
ridiculous. The KKK are racists for fucks sake, they think
it's some kind of conspiracy that minorities are stealing
their jobs and corrupting their youth and that those races
are genetically inferior.

<hr></blockquote>

Yes, racist. It feeds upon the fear of the unknown, which becomes hate and prejudice, very much like this situation, and a lot like many situations in life that most people aren't aware of.
Since he doesn't understand how someone can do it, nor does he like the effect of it (dick envy, which is the answer to the previous question I asked that I never got a response to since no one has the guts to be honest), he is completely justified in his mind to condemn, belittle and poke of them like if they were inferior human beings, even though the only reason for his behavior is ignorance and lack of ability to respect things he doesn't understand, which, in my opinion, is one of the greatest assets people can have. Too bad so many don't agree with it.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

It's apples and oranges, one belief system is insane, the
other is just being an asshole. You can do a lot of things
alright, but when you take one thing and put it in the
forefront of your life where it dominates to such an
extreme. It can be anything, drugs, works, video games,
working out, watching TV. Looking down at people who can't
practice a little moderation isn't prejudice. Half of those
people don't have a real probably to fall back on, no gene
to blame their habits on, they just lack discipline. If I
can't say "look those morons have a problem" and you say
"they're adults they can do whatever they fucking want" then
I would say "then I can make fun of their stupid ass life
choices".

<hr></blockquote>

See, those bolded parts infuriates me to no end, it pisses me off to a degree you wouldn't believe.
"Can't"? "Lack discipline"? That's probably some of the most outrageous crap I've heard in a while, and lately I've been surfing through gamespot and gamefaqs forums (I guess I'm a masochist).
I'll challenge you to a contest of will, you name it, anything, absolutely fucking anything you can think of.
How about we see who can hold our hands over a lighter the longest? It's on. How about who can go without sleep for the longest? Challenge me, and I promise you I won't sleep for over a week and probably end up in a near death situation just to prove my point, that is how strong-minded I am in real life.

To say I am unable to quit playing a game, the mere thought is so preposterous to me it boggles my mind how any intelligent being can even come close to the conclusion.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I mean haven't you ever heard respect is earned? How much
respect can you earn crushing mobs for 20hours a day?

<hr></blockquote>

Yes, but does that mean we should spit on everyone we don't know?
In my opinion, people should be treated with enough respect from the start that you don't kick them in the nuts just because you are unable to grasp their reasoning. That all human beings are inferior to yourself until proven otherwise is a rather ignorant view, but that's the world for you.

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[king killa]

> One form that is commonly ignored is white on white (usually
> class-based). Most people don't even think twice about calling
> someone a "redneck" or "white trash," but realistically, those words
> aren't any better than "nigger."
>

There is a difference..
The word "nigger" is against blacks. Which is very wrong, because there are plenty of smart, well-mannered blacks.

The word "redneck" is against stupid toothless wife beaters.. and there are no smart, well-mannered 'stupid toothless wife beaters', so it isn't really prejudice to call them that.

Now, if someone says that "Everyone from georgia is a redneck" than that is indeed prejudice and wrong.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[king killa]

> By who? Everybody? Everybody is prejudice?

yes. EVERYBODY is prejudice. And I'm not being sarcastic.

Look at the picture below. What are your first impressions? Did you automatically assume he is retarded? THAT is a form of prejudice.

<img src=http://www.neohjuggalos.com/Retard.jpg>

<P ID="signature"></P>

[UncleOral]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

yes. EVERYBODY is prejudice. And I'm not being sarcastic.

Look at the picture below. What are your first impressions?
Did you automatically assume he is retarded? THAT is a form
of prejudice.

<hr></blockquote>

Indeed, good example.

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[thegodofhellfire]

> Look at the picture below. What are your first impressions?
> Did you automatically assume he is retarded? THAT is a form
> of prejudice.

That picture just makes me feel profoundly guilty, probably as a reflex against my instinctive prejudice. But I always feel like that when I see someone so visibly handicapped. And then I feel even more guity for thinking such bloody patronising thoughts. I wish it was a non-issue to me, but I'd be lying if I suggested it isn't.

But yeah, very effective point. You might want to try not using an image called 'retard', though. It sort of undermines your case!

<P ID="signature"></p><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by thegodofhellfire on 06/29/04 06:48 PM.</FONT></P>

[king killa]

One thing I think is bullshit is that companies must hire a certain ammount of blacks and women each year. That law or requirement is more racist than anything.

It is racist againt white males, because they can be more qualified and still not get it. And it is racist to blacks and females because it is implying that they need the help.

Instead of having to hire a certain ammount of blacks and women, they should have to justify there reasons for hiring anyone else.

If 'mr. white' and 'mr. black' apply for the same job, and 'mr. white' scores 3 points higher than 'mr. black', the employer shouldn't feel obligated to hire 'mr. black' because of race, he should simply have to justify that 'mr. white' was more qualified, and that race was no issue.

The same could go the other way around. If 'mr. black' is more qualified, and the employer STILL hires 'mr. white', than he would not be able to justify it without being race related, in which case he would be punished somehow, and 'mr. black' would be given his well earned job.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[king killa]

> But yeah, very effective point. You might want to try not
> using an image called 'retard', though. It sort of
> undermines your case!
>

It was not my doing, I found it that way. I suppose I should have renamed it though..

<P ID="signature"></P>

[MooglyGuy]

1) Minority quotas are illegal in at least governmental jobs.
2) Affirmative action only applies to equally-qualified prospective employees.

<P ID="signature">http://www.zophar.net/Files/mooglish.png
"Kupo, motherfucker!! DO YOU SPEAK IT!?"</P>

[thegodofhellfire]

> Instead of having to hire a certain ammount of blacks and
> women, they should have to justify there reasons for hiring
> anyone else.

Yeah, to a point that makes sense, but the problem is that most jobs are gained through the interview process, which by its nature is entirely down to the opinion of the interviewer. It's very subjective - I mean, how could you counter an interviewer who game you 10 points for demeanour or 7 for friendliness? Unfortunately we have to just put trust in the individual employers not to fuck up.

<P ID="signature"></p><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by thegodofhellfire on 06/29/04 07:06 PM.</FONT></P>

[king killa]

> 1) Minority quotas are illegal in at least governmental
> jobs.
> 2) Affirmative action only applies to equally-qualified
> prospective employees.
>

1) I am not talking about government jobs.
2) The more blacks and women a comapny has, the more funding the goverment gives them.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[king killa]

To make sure I'm clear....

I'm not saying that the employer has the right to be racist, I'm just sayingt hat he shouldn't feel obligated to hire the minority.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[thegodofhellfire]

> I'm not saying that the employer has the right to be racist,
> I'm just sayingt hat he shouldn't feel obligated to hire the
> minority.

Don't worry - that certainly wasn't the impression I got. Racist. :P

<P ID="signature"></p><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by thegodofhellfire on 06/29/04 07:12 PM.</FONT></P>

[king killa]

> Don't worry - that certainly wasn't the impression I got.
> Racist.
>

<img src=smilies/erm.gif>

EDIT: ok, now your edit has a tongue smiley.. at first I was questioning its sarcasm.. :D<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by king killa on 06/29/04 07:13 PM.</FONT></P>

[thegodofhellfire]

> EDIT: ok, now your edit has a tongue smiley.. at first I was
> questioning its sarcasm.. :D

Haha, yeah, I thought the sentiment didn't come across right first time round. No worries.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[Danoz]

> One of the problems is we look at the people in power, old
> white men.

Funny, I see women and people of other races in power, also. This statement just isn't correct. Remember, a majority of the people in this country ARE white males, wouldn't it make sense that the porportion of people in power would be similar?

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[Danoz]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Most people don't even think twice about calling someone a "redneck" or "white trash," but realistically, those words aren't any better than "nigger."

<hr></blockquote>

Eh, "redneck" is pretty harmless. The fact is, the people who appear to be rednecks generally wear the word as a banner and rarely take offense by it. Also, it doesn't carry anywhere near the baggage that the N-word does.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

There's also political prejudice, anti-intelliectualism, ethnocentrism, appearance-based prejudice (e.g. height, weight, overall attractiveness), religious prejudice, and probably many more. Honestly, I think we're wired to judge and stereotype... it must have had an evolutionary advantage of some sort. Either way, we should probably try to avoid it whenever it arises.

<hr></blockquote>

Whoah, not all discrimination is bad, spacetiger. People discriminate when they choose friends with the same interests, when they chose a spouse-- and yes, people for a job. The more attractive person will likely be at the front desk...

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[Danoz]

Difference. I would look at that picture and make a logical assumption, that's not prejudice.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[king killa]

> Difference. I would look at that picture and make a logical
> assumption, that's not prejudice.
>

no, prejudice means that you "pre-judge" someone. If you see a picture of someone, and "assume" that they are retarded by their appearence, than you are making a judgement without knowing them, therefore, being prejudice.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[UncleOral]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Difference. I would look at that picture and make a logical
assumption, that's not prejudice.

<hr></blockquote>

Logical assumptions and prejudice are not mutually exclusive, which this example proves. Main difference between this, and say, racism, is that you mean no harm and no one is hurt, so you're not doing anything wrong. Say what you are thinking to his face, however, and we're in a whole other ballcourt. You still may not mean any harm, but harm has certainly been done, in that case.

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[SpaceTiger]

> There is a difference..
> The word "nigger" is against blacks. Which is very wrong,
> because there are plenty of smart, well-mannered blacks.

In my experience, "nigger" is used in the same way that "redneck" is. When we say the word, we have some sort of image on our head about the kind of person it describes and we then use it whenever we see a person like that. If you've ever seen Spike Lee's "Do the Right Thing", there's a really good illustration of this:

Pino: How come niggers are so stupid?
Mookie: If you see a nigger kick his ass.
[...]
M: Pino, who's your favourite basketball player?
P: Magic Johnson.
M: Who's your favourite movie star?
P: Eddie Murphy.
M: And who's your favourite rock star?
P: (hesitates)
M: Prince.
P: The Boss. Bruuuce.
M: Prince.
P: Bruuuce.
M: Pino, all you every say is "nigger this" and "nigger that," and all your favourite people are so-called niggers.
P: Magic, Eddie, Prince,they're not nigger; I mean, they're not black; I mean... let me explain myself: they're not really black. They're black, but not really black. They're more than black. It's different.


> Now, if someone says that "Everyone from georgia is a
> redneck" than that is indeed prejudice and wrong.

Practically speaking, I think this is what happens. Usually, we don't know enough about people to determine whether they're stupid or wife-beating (though I'm not really sure why their teeth or intelligence should matter). People just form an image in their head and whenever someone vaguely fits that image, they label them and look down on them. Since most poor whites (outside of cities) fit this image, they usually get the label.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[RedXIII]

> Look at the picture below. What are your first impressions?
> Did you automatically assume he is retarded? THAT is a form
> of prejudice.
>

No it's not. He's so obviously retarded that there could be no mistaking it. Retards just have that look about them.

Now flame away and don't forget to add a picture of me and add the word 'retard' to it.

<P ID="signature">http://home.comcast.net/~owens_andy/ZD2000.jpg</P>

[SpaceTiger]

> Well it's kind of how I don't like most alchohol, there are
> a few things I do like though. But I say alchohol sucks,
> it's a general statement that's not entirely true but most
> alchohol does suck to me, and it's just easier to say that
> rather then list everything I do and don't like.

I understand and I generally act that way myself. The problem is not in the stereotyping and generalizations, per se, but in the way it's carried out. If you avoid interaction with someone or deny them a job simply because they drink alcohol, I'd say you're being irrational and unfair. This is the kind of thing that needs to be avoided. Obviously, there are cases where stereotyping is harmless or even beneficial (I feel justified in being prejudiced against users of hard drugs), but you have to use a little common sense.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[SpaceTiger]

> Whoah, not all discrimination is bad, spacetiger. People
> discriminate when they choose friends with the same
> interests, when they chose a spouse-- and yes, people for a
> job. The more attractive person will likely be at the front
> desk...

I thought it was pretty obvious that I was referring to irrational discrimination. You could say that employers discriminate against "underqualified" individuals, but I would hope that you wouldn't read my post as complaining about that.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[Danoz]

Yes, but the fact that he looks metally handicapped is the truth-- however sad the truth is, it's not necessarily prejudice.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[Danoz]

> no, prejudice means that you "pre-judge" someone. If you see
> a picture of someone, and "assume" that they are retarded by
> their appearence, than you are making a judgement without
> knowing them, therefore, being prejudice.

The person indeed looks metally handicapped. I observe logically that since the person shows all the physical signs of a such a handicap that the handicap, in all probability, exists. If you had a goiter on your face, and I said, "Oh look, he has a goiter on his face." That wouldn't be prejudice, it would be an observation.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[Danoz]

I personally find the word "retard" offensive because I HAVE heard it used in such a horrible, condescending way towards people who actually have a handicap.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[SpaceTiger]

> Funny, I see women and people of other races in power, also.
> This statement just isn't correct. Remember, a majority of
> the people in this country ARE white males, wouldn't it make
> sense that the porportion of people in power would be
> similar?

Wow. Dude, do a little research. Come to think of it, use a little common sense. For starters, it should be a no-brainer that women make up roughly half the population and don't make up nearly that much of the positions of power.

As for race, whites are 75% of the population, but what fraction of the senate and house are white?

Senate: 97% (no blacks) [http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/minority_senators.htmLink</a>]
House: ~88% [http://www.ethnicmajority.com/congress.htmLink</a>]

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[SpaceTiger]

> Difference. I would look at that picture and make a logical
> assumption, that's not prejudice.

Yeah, I agree with you on this one. His facial structure is clearly typical of someone with down syndrome. I'm sure a small fraction of "non-retarded" people look that way, but I would venture to guess that it's very small.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[king killa]

Okay, Okay. I guess the handicapped person was a bad example.

I have a better one though. When you call people liberals, you are being prejudice.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[TheRobbit]

See now I see, you're not defending someone elses lifestyle, you're defending you're lifestyle.

You know what though if you play video games 20 hours a day on a regular basis it's a fucking waste of time. You're never going to win a Nobel prize doing that, chances are you'll never make a living of of it.

You can do it if you want but give me a break, you're surprised people think it's a fucking joke? How dare they make fun of you for being unbalanced and excessive?

It doesn't matter what you do really but when you call people morons for their not so unreasonable opinions you're really no better than I or that guy who thinks power gamers are jokes.

And it's not a lack of understanding either. Somethings don't need to be understood ya know. I don't need to understand why people do drugs to know it's goddamn stupid. All I do now is I have no desire to do drugs and it's fun to make jokes at addicts exspense.

I don't even play any MMORPG's so I don't know why people care what other peoples levels are or anything. I do know doing much of anything for a 20 hour period on a regular basis probably isn't a healthy human behavior.

The only reason I would bother to make fun of someone who spent so much of their free time playing a game is if they tried to jsutify it.

If it was me I'd just say "it's a fucking waste of time but I don't really have much else to do or that I want to do right now, so live with it".

Besides when I think of hardcore gamer I think of this http://64.62.175.181/index.php?module=PostWrap&page=flash/cs.html

<P ID="signature">your wish,
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[MooglyGuy]

> I have a better one though. When you call people liberals,
> you are being prejudice.

Am I being prejudiced by looking down on you for constantly misspelling "prejudiced"? A person who displays prejudice is prejudiced. <img src=smilies/headshake.gif>

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[king killa]

> Am I being prejudiced by looking down on you for constantly
> misspelling "prejudiced"? A person who displays prejudice
> is prejudiced.
>
.... you dissapoint me sometimes. It is just as acceptable to say "someone is prejudice" as it is to say "someone is prejudiced".

I wasn't misspelling anything.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[MooglyGuy]

> It is just as acceptable
> to say "someone is prejudice" as it is to say "someone is
> prejudiced".

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prejudiceWrong.</a> Prejudice is not a transitive verb. Unless you are saying that someone is the very act of prejudice, then no, it is entirely unacceptable, and until I started reading your posts in this thread, I'd never heard such a blatantly idiotic misspelling in my life. You'd might as well be saying that it's acceptable to say, "He is anger," "That man is annoyance," "She is happiness."

> I wasn't misspelling anything.

Wrong again.

[Octocrook]

> Most
> people don't even think twice about calling someone a
> "redneck" or "white trash," but realistically, those words
> aren't any better than "nigger."

I agree with Danoz...redneck is pretty harmless. I think you were trying to think of "hick". Redneck, while sometimes meant to be derogatory, is more of a descriptor (hence Jeff Foxworthy joking about signs of someone "being a redneck") whereas hick is pretty strictly derogatory.

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[SpaceTiger]

> I agree with Danoz...redneck is pretty harmless. I think
> you were trying to think of "hick".

Not really, but it's not up to me anyway. If the people who are referred to in this way object to it, then I wouldn't call it harmless. If it forms a negative image in your head and results in prejudice, then I wouldn't call it harmless. If none of those things are the case, then perhaps you're right.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[king killa]

After thinking about it, you are right.

> > I wasn't misspelling anything.
>
> Wrong again.
>

No, I'm not wrong on this one. prejudice is a word. Therefore, using it rather than prejudiced isn't misspelling it, it's just using the wrong word. Like if someone using the word "good" when they should use "well".


>You'd might as well be saying that it's acceptable to say, "He is anger," "That man is annoyance," "She is happiness."

This is completely different.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[UncleOral]

First off, congratulations on failing to absorb pretty much any part of my post.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

See now I see, you're not defending someone elses lifestyle,
you're defending you're lifestyle.

<hr></blockquote>
I'm defending what used to be my lifestyle, there are health issues, but so does many hobbies have, there's the risk of death in most sports due to pretty much anything, it is dangerous to live. I'll agree 20 hours a day is harsh, but that is not the average of my entire life, it is the average when I was really hooked on something. It was my choice to make if I wanted to prioritize games over everything else at the time, and just because you are so ignorant and respectless doesn't make it any more right to think less of that choice.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

You know what though if you play video games 20 hours a day
on a regular basis it's a fucking waste of time. You're
never going to win a Nobel prize doing that, chances are
you'll never make a living of of it.

<hr></blockquote>

It's a waste of time to you, that is the whole fucking point you fail to grasp, did you know there are other people in the world? Did you also know that they have different priorities than you? No? I didn't think so.

And if I wanted to make money doing it, I wouldn't have been playing so many different games at once and focused on just one, like RtCW and joined up with Infensus in Sweden a few years back to compete in the finals with the Doctors. However, seeing as playing one game and pretty much one game only isn't what I like to do, not to mention that games haven't yet reached the point where you can actively make money without being the best in the world, I'd rather just do it as a full time hobby for then.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

You can do it if you want but give me a break, you're
surprised people think it's a fucking joke? How dare they
make fun of you for being unbalanced and excessive?

<hr></blockquote>

Who said I was surprised? The only thing mildly surprising is that I would find such an arrogant and ignorant person on this board, but I already knew it wasn't a safe haven, so it's really no surprise at all.
See, unbalanced and excessive is just your misinformed opinion, much like with me, I think you are an ass, an utter waste of human flesh and so-called intelligence. Does that make it so just because I think that? It's just my misinformed opinion of you, because I have only seen this ignorant side of you, and none of your good aspects.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

It doesn't matter what you do really but when you call
people morons for their not so unreasonable opinions you're
really no better than I or that guy who thinks power gamers
are jokes.

<hr></blockquote>
Their opinions are completely unreasonable and openly steps on my toes, the exact same way I would be if I wanted to make fun of someone who practiced martial arts most of the day, and I'm honest enough to say that if I started bitching about them (I never would, I have too much respect for fellow intelligent human beings), it would most certainly be because of dick-envy.
And you're wrong, this most definitely makes me better than anyone who trample respectlessly over my previous lifestyle, I am defending myself. You would think less of someone who punched the teeth out of their attacker when they were bullying and kicking him?

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

And it's not a lack of understanding either. Somethings
don't need to be understood ya know. I don't need to
understand why people do drugs to know it's goddamn stupid.
All I do now is I have no desire to do drugs and it's fun to
make jokes at addicts exspense.

<hr></blockquote>

It's this easy: you compare it to a drug addict, therefore it most certainly is lack of understanding. You could argue if that is the main focus, however, seeing as you don't respect their choices. That is your own fault, and it harms them the second you mention it, regardless if you mean harm or not.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I don't even play any MMORPG's so I don't know why people
care what other peoples levels are or anything. I do know
doing much of anything for a 20 hour period on a regular
basis probably isn't a healthy human behavior.

<hr></blockquote>

Neither is smoking and drinking (I do neither), do you see me disrespecting them and calling them weak inferior human beings? No, and you never will, because I am empowered with the superhuman ability (or so it seems) to respect other peoples choices.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Besides when I think of hardcore gamer I think of this
http:> //64.62.175.181/index.php?module=PostWrap&page=flash/cs.html

<hr></blockquote>

I hadn't seen that one, that was funny. CS is in my opinion utter crap where many many moronic beings gather though, plus the word you are looking for isn't 'hardcore gamer', it is 'dysfunctional fuckwad', I guess in your ignorant head that is the same thing.

<P ID="signature"><center><img src=http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Trucido/MegaVin.png>
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[Gokuh]

People with physical disabilities have problems. I know a guy who cannot get a job because he was born with a screwed up arm. Everytime he goes into the interview people stare at it.

Discrimination does exist for people who have physical disabilities. Some justified (If they cannot do the job because of it), some unjustified (ewww gross, im not hiring him)

<P ID="signature">ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ</P>

[Gokuh]

You do realize that every stereotype will form a negative image to SOMEONE. You must also realize that people will continue to use it. Just because some people find hick offensive (I dont, I have been called one because I am from a rural area), dosnt mean the term should be stopped.




<P ID="signature">ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ</P>

[TheRobbit]

What is there to absorb exact? That you think playing games for 20 hours is alright? That's great, but you know what if everyone did it society would fall apart. That's how you can sort of tell it's not a reasonable behavior. A lot of things are good and fun, video games included. But imagining peoples lack of balance is alright because that's what they choose to do is sort of naive. It doesn't mean you should impose your belief on them but it's not wrong for "an ignorant person" to acknowledge it's not a healthy productive practice.

You keep going on about respect. You're trying to simplfy and unify too much. I respect peoples right to make choices (even dumbass choices). I don't have to repsect their choices.

I'm defending what used to be my lifestyle, there are health issues, but so does many hobbies have, there's the risk of death in most sports due to pretty much anything, it is dangerous to live.

Now you're trying to justify excessive unhealthy activity by saying other hobbies are life threatening? Yes my monitor could explode and a shard of glass could iimpale my brain. And I could run through a field and trip and smash my brain open on a rock. These are not justifications for doing or not doing an activity. Most people probably aren't going to die from playing games 20 hours a day, most people aren't going to be crippled from playing sports or suffer irreversable brain damage from airplane glue while building model airplanes. In a lot of ways "supposedly productive" things like office jobs are just as bad for you as playing games for 20 hours. The thing is you're probably not going to sit in an office and work for 20 hours straight. If you did it would be unhealthy.

Even that is only a mediocre issue at best, eating twinkies are unhealthy, smoking is unhealthy, drinking in excess is unhealthy, siting on your ass for days straight is unhealthy. In some sort of moderation none of that stuff is bad for you at all.

It's a waste of time to you, that is the whole fucking point you fail to grasp, did you know there are other people in the world? Did you also know that they have different priorities than you? No? I didn't think so.

You know what though I do play games, I do a lot of things. The difference is I know most things are a big fucking waste of time. Playing Natural Selection for 2 hours nets me jack fucking shit, even if I kick ass and I am in first place the whole time.

If someone asked me what I had to show for that period of time. What would I have? Maybe the story about the ucktard on voice chat singing a song, or a screen shot.

Playing video games are a waste of time and when someone chooses to do it doesn't change that fact. There is nothing wrong with wasting a little time, or some time. But when a pretty much meaningless pursuit takes up your whole life it doesn't stop being a waste of time just because guys choose to prioritize it before anything else.

Priorities can be wrong, they can be flawed and the can be fucked up.

Norman Borlaug is the greatest man alive. It's estimated he has saved over a billion lives. If he had prioritized entertainment as the forefront of his life it never would have happened.

Life is sort of like a juggling act, work, family friends, fun, misc and anything else you can throw in there. Not everyone has 6 balls. Some people just can't juggle that much. But when you just throw all the balls away and focus on one. Why should you be surprised when other jugglers shake their heads or point and laugh. When you make ridiculous even selfish priorities the focus of your life. People are going to notice, they're not going to be impressed or interested. They may not understand, but what is there to understand really?

If all you eat is french fires and coke people are gonna say "you have a pretty boring diet". Hollering about how they have no right to judge and trying to make them out to be narrow minded, igorant and selfish doesn't change a few primal realities.

I would say it's a piss poor tactic even. People can have opinions and they may not be so ignorant as you believe. I don't "approve" of doing much or anything for 20 hours, but why the fuck do you care what I approve? I'm not going to protesting about it, but imagining I'm igorant is retarded. If I researched playing games for days on end what would I learn exactly?

Saying my opinion is stupid because people have made a choice doesn't do much to sway my opinion. What right do I have? I have personal right to judge for myself what I see in the world around me. I can judge racism is bad, I can judge kittens are cute. I can judge my friend Evan is a fucking moron. I can judfe playing video games are a waste of time.

Personal perception doesn't mean all encompassing fact, opposing beliefs aren't ignorant or stupid. Some things can be generally true and still be wrong. Not everyone who smokes get's cancer, but smoking can cause cancer.

The "it's not totally bad so it's good" arguement is flawed. So is the "it's not toally good so it's bad" arguement.

Take the fact that 66% of Americans are overweight. "Crazy" people talk abuot taxing junkfood, or controlling our diets. This sort of thing pisses me off. I'm about 5'11 but I only weigh about 122lbs, it doesn't really matter what I eat I just don't gain weight. I've had broken bones and done nothing but sit around and watch tv, play nintendo and eat and LOST weight. People keep telling me to eat more because they think maybe I starve myself or that I don't eat enough or something. Because most people can gain or lose weight without too much difficulty. I can't really understand how someone could be fat, because the last time I was fat I couldn't even talk (I actually was a fat baby the doctor put me on a diet and I've been trying to recover ever sense). My dad was overwight but all he did my whole life was sit on the couch and watch tv. He was a different bodytype and he cuold have lost that weight if he had done something besides sit around.

While it does get annoying to explain to normal people I'm in good shape, that I do go outside, and that I do indeed eat. It doesn't change the fact that their general beilef is right. Some thin people need to eat more, or exercise, some thin people are weak. My last girlfiend was so ridiculously weak it was laughable and she was only 6 or 7lbs lighter than I was. But she didn't do anything but sit around at home, on the computer or watching TV.

Maybe playing video games for 20 hours isn't the most horrible thing ever, maybe it keeps some kids of the street or from doing drugs. Maybe it helps some people, but generally speaking waste of time, unhealthy, unbalanced, excessive, selfish is what doing almost anything for 20 hours ammounts too. Do some people need more balance in their life? Yes. Does that include people who play video games for 20 hours? Yes. Is my opinion wrong. Universally yes, in reality no. Can I me fun of stubborn people who lead unbalanced lives? You betcha. Does that make me an asshole? Yes. Does it mean I'm ignorant? No.

I think about the only thing you could do for 20 hours straight and not have it fit into that is help orphans or save lives and even then if you actually want to be helpful you should probably balance it out with little things like sleep and recreation.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted
http://rob.therobbit.com</P>

[TheRobbit]

> Funny, I see women and people of other races in power, also.
> This statement just isn't correct. Remember, a majority of
> the people in this country ARE white males, wouldn't it make
> sense that the porportion of people in power would be
> similar?

SpaceTiger's post is what I'm thinking of. It was a general statement focused on a lopsided majority and you said "technically it's wrong". Yes technically it is, there are women and minorities in power. In relation to actual populations ratios? Who is the overwhemling majority? Old white men.

I think there is a limit to how "fair" it can be though. 25% of the population is minorities doesn't mean that 25% of the geovernment needs to be have minorities in it. I'm sure plenty of hispanics voted for a white guy. Maybe the the black guy running for senator was a fucking moron. Maybe the lady running for president threatened to kill all babies.

But I doubt (rich) old white men are so much more qualified that any other group to justify making up the majority of leadership positions in government and corporations.

Some of it isn't so strange, it's just the whole clique thing, it never dies.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted
http://rob.therobbit.com</P>

[TheRobbit]

(hence Jeff Foxworthy joking about signs of someone "being a
> redneck") whereas hick is pretty strictly derogatory.

It depends on a lot. Up north in the boonies plenty of people refer to themselves as hicks. Some black people can call each other niggers and it's fine, they can get away with it.

It's a huge issue, it depends on who's sayingit and why. If I describe myself as a hick that's one thing. If some city dwelling moron of a tourist calls me a "stupid hick" for almost any reason the it's an insult.

In my geek is a positve term, nerd is sort of negative. I never describe myself as a nerd, but always as a geek.


<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted
http://rob.therobbit.com</P>

[UncleOral]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

But imagining peoples lack of balance is alright because that's what they choose to do is sort of naive. It doesn't mean you should
impose your belief on them but it's not wrong for "an ignorant person" to acknowledge it's not a healthy productive practice.

<hr></blockquote>

See, if you only did that, there would be no problem. However, you don't, and as you mention later in the post, that makes you an asshole (your words, and I am inclined to agree completely).

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

You keep going on about respect. You're trying to simplfy
and unify too much. I respect peoples right to make choices
(even dumbass choices). I don't have to repsect their
choices.

<hr></blockquote>

And why not? If no one is hurt (except themselves, which can be argued as a point on it's own), then disrespecting their choice and going on to the degree of poking fun of them, belittling and making them feel inferior is not what I would consider a desireable human trait, but, unfortunately, it is quite prevalent in todays society.
Take yourself as an example.

As I see it, smoking is much much worse than playing games all day, it is unhealthy even in the smallest dozes, but most importantly, other people are harmed by the bad habit. However, do you see me bitching? I prohibit smoking inside my own house, and I certainly don't want smoke blown my way when I am out, yet even still, I respect their choice and I won't say I think less of them for it, though I will say I don't agree.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Even that is only a mediocre issue at best, eating twinkies
are unhealthy, smoking is unhealthy, drinking in excess is
unhealthy, siting on your ass for days straight is
unhealthy. In some sort of moderation none of that stuff is
bad for you at all.

<hr></blockquote>

Smoking is bad for you even in a moderate state. Wine on the other hand is healthy in small dozes, I hear.
It just depends on what you perceive as 'bad for you', and when it becomes so 'bad for you' that it should be balanced, we disagree completely on that issue, and while I respect your opinion on it, you don't respect mine.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Priorities can be wrong, they can be flawed and the can be
fucked up.

<hr></blockquote>

Sure, whatever. That doesn't give you any right to trample over someone elses belief, you are not on a moral highground which can decide what is inherently 'right' or 'wrong'. The main point of it all is if others are hurt by someones priority, and by that logic, smoking can be considered 'wrong' (you are imposing your bad habits on someone else), while gaming for 20 hours straight isn't (no one is hurt but yourself).
And like I've said a million times, I will still respect their choice, even if you in this case which isn't as severe don't.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

http://www.nobel.se/peace/laureates/1970/borlaug-bio.html

Norman Borlaug is the greatest man alive. It's
estimated he has saved over a billion lives. If he had
prioritized entertainment as the forefront of his life it
never would have happened.

<hr></blockquote>

Yes yes, Hitler wouldn't have killed so many millions either if he had been playing DoD (well virtually maybe, if he played enough DoD).
I understand what you mean, we should all strive to do something meaningful with our lives, what you fail to realize is that what is 'meaningful' to someone is entirely dependant on the person in quesion.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Life is sort of like a juggling act, work, family friends,
fun, misc and anything else you can throw in there. Not
everyone has 6 balls. Some people just can't juggle that
much. But when you just throw all the balls away and focus
on one. Why should you be surprised when other jugglers
shake their heads or point and laugh. When you make
ridiculous even selfish priorities the focus of your life.
People are going to notice, they're not going to be
impressed or interested. They may not understand, but what
is there to understand really?

<hr></blockquote>

Some people can't juggle 6 balls in life, and some people <h2>choose</h2> not to. Choice. What they want to do with their life. People can do whatever the fuck they want, if given the will, ambition, time and effort, yes, but as hard as it may be to understand, what you want is not what everyone else wants, that is something you need to faze and last but definitely not least, respect.
You see, there is no perfect formula for how people should live, what you see as the meaning of life is almost certainly not what most others think it should be, it is completely up to the individual.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

If all you eat is french fires and coke people are gonna say
"you have a pretty boring diet". Hollering about how they
have no right to judge and trying to make them out to be
narrow minded, igorant and selfish doesn't change a few
primal realities.

<hr></blockquote>

They have no right to judge, it's their choice to make, not the condemners. The reality may still be there, but if he doesn't care, it doesn't matter to anyone but him. People shouldn't have to endure ridiculous nonsense from ignorant people just because they don't agree. They can still disagree, they just don't have to fucking tattoo it in their foreheads and run around with a sign saying, "French Fries will bring about world destruction!".

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I would say it's a piss poor tactic even. People can have
opinions and they may not be so ignorant as you believe. I
don't "approve" of doing much or anything for 20 hours, but
why the fuck do you care what I approve? I'm not going to
protesting about it, but imagining I'm igorant is retarded.
If I researched playing games for days on end what would I
learn exactly?

<hr></blockquote>

You can think whatever you want - just don't drag me into it, I don't care to listen about how you think anyone who plays games for 20 hours a day are useless pieces of human flesh. The only purpose that serves is 'my opinion is better than yours, not equal'.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Saying my opinion is stupid because people have made a
choice doesn't do much to sway my opinion. What right do I
have? I have personal right to judge for myself what I see
in the world around me. I can judge racism is bad, I can
judge kittens are cute. I can judge my friend Evan is a
fucking moron. I can judfe playing video games are a waste
of time.

<hr></blockquote>

^see above.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Personal perception doesn't mean all encompassing fact,
opposing beliefs aren't ignorant or stupid. Some things can
be generally true and still be wrong. Not everyone who
smokes get's cancer, but smoking can cause cancer.

<hr></blockquote>

Yes, however your belief most certainly is ignorant, you don't understand the choice and condemn it. If you didn't openly condemn it, and put yourself on a higher pedestal than me, we would have no problem.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

While it does get annoying to explain to normal people I'm
in good shape, that I do go outside, and that I do indeed
eat. It doesn't change the fact that their general beilef is
right. Some thin people need to eat more, or exercise, some
thin people are weak. My last girlfiend was so ridiculously
weak it was laughable and she was only 6 or 7lbs lighter
than I was. But she didn't do anything but sit around at
home, on the computer or watching TV.

<hr></blockquote>

And this still doesn't change the fact that every single person that told you to eat more is ignorant.
It doesn't matter if they are right or not, that is completely beside the point.



<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Can I me fun of stubborn people who
lead unbalanced lives? You betcha. Does that make me an
asshole? Yes. Does it mean I'm ignorant? No.

<hr></blockquote>

This is what it all boils down to and where you are completely and utterly wrong, no you can not poke fun of people just because of your ridiculous belief, that will, as you even stated yourself, make you an asshole.
I guess I don't need to say anything else since you already admitted to my whole point of the dicussion, and what I first said, that the guy from the forum was prejudiced and an asshole.

"Hey I just realized something, since I am conscious and all...I must be the only human in the world that matters! You are all below me, and you all suck, and from now on I will make fun of absolutely everyone in the world, and this doesn't mean I'm ignorant either!"

Give me a fucking break.

<P ID="signature"><center><img src=http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Trucido/MegaVin.png>
Coming to cinemas near you! </center></P>

[SpaceTiger]

> You do realize that every stereotype will form a negative
> image to SOMEONE.

If one person in a million finds it offensive, obviously it's not worth worrying about. If the majority of the people given that label find it offensive, then it is. Seriously, do I have to spell out every bit of common sense inherent in my post?


> You must also realize that people will
> continue to use it.

So your reasoning is that an action is justified by its continuation? That's absurd.


> Just because some people find hick
> offensive dosnt mean the term should be stopped.

If those people make up a significant fraction of the poor white population, then I think it does mean that. And before somebody decides to blow that statement out of proportion, no, I don't think it should legally enforced.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[SpaceTiger]

His example wasn't bad because discrimination against people with disabilities doesn't exist, it was bad because he was equating prejudice with a completely rational inference. With that picture, a better question would have been, "would you hire this guy?" If you felt confident that the answer was no just based on the picture, then I think that could be called prejudice.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[king killa]

> With that picture, a better question would have been, "would
> you hire this guy?" If you felt confident that the answer
> was no just based on the picture, then I think that could be
> called prejudice.
>

You're right, and that's why I have a better example now.

Danoz, if you owned a business, and you needed a clerk, would you hire this guy?

<img src=http://www.neohjuggalos.com/burn.jpg>

<P ID="signature"></P>

[TheRobbit]

LOL you suck at this.

A. you only take a sentence out of a paragraph and say why that's wrong.

Some people have more complex lives than others. I said six balls because I though of six major categores. I personally don't have much dealing with my family. So I have work, friends and fun. In my analogy I have to juggle all of those. I have to work, I have to have some free time, I have to see some freinds sometimes. I have to work it all in a schedule that doesn't make sense. But I am juggling. If you choose to juggle one ball that's fine. It is a choice. I notice you didn't challenge that part of the anaolgy.

Further more I hate to break your worldview but prejudice isn't a bad word. You keep flinging it around like an insult. Everyone carries prejudice and people will for a long long time. There are probably a hundred things you're prejudiced about. It's a part of being human. So going on about what a prejudiced bastard I am isn't an insult.

Smoking is more harmful than gaming. What's cute is how you argue it doesn't apply because it's not exactly the same. The only thing that applies really is sitting around writing code for 20 hours a day or watching TV. Exscuse me for trying to throw a little variety in there.

Also smoking doesn't hurt others the crusade against second hand smoke is bullshit. It's never been proven and the two studies that you see all kinds of proof and numbers drawn from were taken from two reports one done by the EPA was well bullshit. http://www.cato.org/dailys/9-28-98.html

While I really don't like smoking or the smell or anything related to it. But it turns out that smoking is really only harmful to the person. Amazing how the public has never heard this, guess it wasn't popular enough. I only mention this because your bullshit argument to tear down my analogy doesn't apply. Neener Neener. It's funny when you search google for second hand smoke the first result is that phony 1993 report that was killed 6 years ago.

I found this page http://www.nycclash.com/CaseAgainstBans/EPA.html

which leads to this page http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7398/1057

Maybe californians are just special, or maybe 35,000 people over 30 years isn't enough either. I'm sure the EPA did a whole lot more when they fucking made up their report.

So my analogy rocks and you're ignorant and prejudiced, but I will except misled and I forgive you.

The point is you keep going on about rights I don't have I don't have the right to judge, I don't have the right to poke fun. I mean we make fun of Britney Spears and everyone has a good laugh. You must hate shows like Chapelle Show, MADtv, Saturday Night Live, Upright Citizens Brigade. Because their entrie script is based off making fun of groups of people who made choices. We make fun of celebrities and they're a group just like powergamers. We make fun of business men and trailerpark trash. For all kinds of reasons everyone get's a piece. Your moral system seems to be so extreme we have to respect everyone and everything and the choices they make what right do we have to think anything but good thoughts towards them. Which is just ridiculous.

Take the Raelians http://www.rael.org/ I read something about them in a newspaper and laughed at them. I know a dozen other people did too. What right do we have? You read about whack groups and cults ad you can't help but laugh. If you join a cult you will be made smirked at by normal people. Is it prejudice maybe, is it still funny? Yep.

What I want to know is where is this magic line? Because you seem to have it all figured out.

What makes certain prejudices ok is that they aren't harmful, everyone has some and it's all comes around. Computer geeks make fun of people who are computer illiterate. Every group get's their fair shake in the poked at fun tree.

I admit that certain groups make me giggle, power gamers, hip hoppers, ganstas, religious people who are ignorant of their own religions. They act certain ways and it makes me laugh AT them, so what?

It's not prejudice;
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims

Well making fun of and thinking someone is stupid isn't really a problem for their rights. I'm not getting in their way of whatever. Maybe I'll make them feel bad or inferior? If my bullshit opinion can do that I'd be willing to grant there's more to it than that.

2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion

Well no I do play games I have played games for quite a long time before once in a great while. Maybe I was sick or bored or something.

(2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion

This isn't soccer moms screaming how doom turns kids into serial killers. This is one gamer laughing because of the actions or habits of other gamers. You kow what else is funny besides power gamers? Cyber sex, ultra serious role players and any crazy internet stuff. I used to be part of a clan now and again. Some where alright because it was just a few guys who knew each other. Some were total bullshit because they had ranks and orders and they had power struggles and everything. I always laughed at those serious psuedo military groups after I had experienced it.

c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

Except I'm not hostile, so I can't really have an irrational attitude of hostility. I can't think of one reason to be pissed at power gamers. I can think that they would be better off playing less games, but that's nothing but an opinion. I've never told a powergamer or anyone "you need to get a girlfriend (or laid)" like that's somehow more worthwhile spent time. I've never told someone they should go outside, or peole are fun too. I can't really think of one thing to say to a powergamer. In my mind I would think they're conscious of what they're doing and that's what they want to do.

The only way I would actually say anything about the subject to a powergamer would be A. if the asked my opinion about their lifestyle. OR B. if some guy was talking about games and just wouldn't take the hint and shut the fuck up.

See the problem with your philosphy is basically I can do whatever I want. If power gamers make a choice to prioritize gaming. I can make a choice to write papers about how video games are stupid and a waste of time. If powergamers can do whatever they wish by proxy of it not harming anyone. I can say video games are a waste of time. A. it's not directed at anyone. B. it's not hurting anyone. C. video games have no feelings, they aren't alive. Scream about my ignorant opinion all you want you can't disprove it.

Now finally the last thing, let's not forget about the powergamer who's married or has kids and is not taking care of them properly. While there are plenty of power gamers who are well adjusted people. There are plenty who are hurting people around them because they won't stop playing because "they made a choice" and made games a "priority". Gaming can be an addiction and while it may not effect you you're not representitive of all powergamers past present and future. So it's not always an issue of not hurting others around you, anything can be harmful out of proportion.

What right do I have to judge though.....
I'm not going to do anything about it, but I can think or say whatever I want. I make a choice to make a general statement that's not directed at anyone and not hurting anyone. What right do you have to judge me for excercising a right?

http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi#SUICIDE for some reason this feels relevant to me, at least on the grounds of making poor powergamers feel inferior... <img src=smilies/flipa.gif>

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted
http://rob.therobbit.com</P>

[king killa]

> But it turns out that smoking is really only harmful to the person.

Bullshit. Second hand smoke may or may not kill people, but it IS harmful.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[Danoz]

> Danoz, if you owned a business, and you needed a clerk,
> would you hire this guy?

If he were qualified, of course.

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[TheRobbit]

It's certainly annoying, but where's your proof? Just saying it doesn't make it true.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted
http://rob.therobbit.com</P>

[UncleOral]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

LOL you suck at this.
A. you only take a sentence out of a paragraph and say why
that's wrong.

<hr></blockquote>

It effectively narrows it down to the point of the discussion, I don't take things out of context (most of the time, at least, I try not to). The other parts I either agree with, am indifferent to, or just don't care to reply to because of sheer stupidity or whatever reason.

Why the hell you think I suck at this is beyond me, I've proven my points over and over. After reading your site a bit I must say, for someone dealing with so many flames you aren't handling yourself so well here.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Further more I hate to break your worldview but prejudice
isn't a bad word. You keep flinging it around like an
insult. Everyone carries prejudice and people will for a
long long time. There are probably a hundred things you're
prejudiced about. It's a part of being human. So going on
about what a prejudiced bastard I am isn't an insult.

<hr></blockquote>

I'm sure you didn't really mean to say the bolded part, seeing as that would indeed be an insult. I agree with you and if you'd read my first post in this thread without overly focusing on the part where I was assaulted by stupidity on the PA forum, you'd see that.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

While I really don't like smoking or the smell or anything
related to it

<hr></blockquote>

Remember this part.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I only mention
this because your bullshit argument to tear down my analogy
doesn't apply.

<hr></blockquote>

Oh it does indeed apply, stay tuned.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

So my analogy rocks and you're ignorant and prejudiced, but
I will except misled and I forgive you.

<hr></blockquote>

I'll admit I don't know if second-hand smoking is harmful or not, but you failed to grasp the entire point, do you remember how you said you didn't like smoke? If I smoke near you, then my bad habit is affecting you in a harmful way. It's that simple, and that by itself makes smoking worse than the powergamers who only harm themselves (and as you said yourself, smoking is worse than gaming).

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The point is you keep going on about rights I don't have I
don't have the right to judge, I don't have the right to
poke fun. I mean we make fun of Britney Spears and everyone
has a good laugh. You must hate shows like Chapelle Show,
MADtv, Saturday Night Live, Upright Citizens Brigade.
Because their entrie script is based off making fun of
groups of people who made choices. We make fun of
celebrities and they're a group just like powergamers. We
make fun of business men and trailerpark trash. For all
kinds of reasons everyone get's a piece. Your moral system
seems to be so extreme we have to respect everyone and
everything and the choices they make what right do we have
to think anything but good thoughts towards them. Which is
just ridiculous.

Take the Raelians http://www.rael.org/ I read something
about them in a newspaper and laughed at them. I know a
dozen other people did too. What right do we have? You read
about whack groups and cults ad you can't help but laugh. If
you join a cult you will be made smirked at by normal
people. Is it prejudice maybe, is it still funny? Yep.


<hr></blockquote>

Yes, it is funny, and I jest a lot in real life at the expense of others. However I would never do it to anyone's face openly like you did earlier, your first post here were just a big bunch of 'my opinion > your opinion' ignorant bullshit (powergamers <> average == steroid users <> average? What the bloody hell?).
I could care less if you don't agree with the lifestyle I used to have, I just don't want to hear your idiotic view, I never asked for your opinion and you purposely shoved it down my throat like it was a holy crusade on a quest to sway me away from the darkness.
I already know from reading your site you like to cause a stir and incite rage in hopes of response, so I guess I'm ignorant (and now prejudiced for making that assumption from reading your site) for swallowing the flame-bait, but your first post was so blatantly absurd I just had to.
Bravo, not many trolls manage to lure me in.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

What I want to know is where is this magic line? Because you
seem to have it all figured out.

<hr></blockquote>

There is no static magic line, however a good indication is if you think someone is going to take serious offense by it, you've most likely overstepped it.
There's a saying; "Your rights end where others rights begin", not sure who said that.
It should be pretty obvious that telling a powergamer to; "Get a life" oversteps it by a mile. With a little effort, I'm sure you would have gathered that saying straight to my face that my lifestyle was a 'stupid ass' one and that you're justified to poke fun of it crosses it as well.
However, then you wouldn't have been able to attend this wonderful discussion you wanted so badly, right?

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

What makes certain prejudices ok is that they aren't
harmful, everyone has some and it's all comes around.
Computer geeks make fun of people who are computer
illiterate. Every group get's their fair shake in the poked
at fun tree.

I admit that certain groups make me giggle, power gamers,
hip hoppers, ganstas, religious people who are ignorant of
their own religions. They act certain ways and it makes me
laugh AT them, so what?

<hr></blockquote>

The bolded parts contradict themselves, by laughing at someone you are indeed harming them, if they know about it or find out.
Now it's my turn to ask for the magic line; if laughing at someone and poking fun of them in their face isn't bad enough offense to care about, how about calling somone a nigger? Should you just say, "Well dude, it's your own fucking fault for taking offense"? While I agree that is one way of handling it and the most common one, it's not very respectful for whomever is affected.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

It's not prejudice;
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action
of another in disregard of one's rights; especially :
detriment to one's legal rights or claims

Well making fun of and thinking someone is stupid isn't
really a problem for their rights. I'm not getting in their
way of whatever. Maybe I'll make them feel bad or inferior?
If my bullshit opinion can do that I'd be willing to grant
there's more to it than that.

<hr></blockquote>

Yes, what if it does make them feel bad or inferior? "*shrugs* oh well boo hoo you fucking pansy" is the most common response.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an
individual, a group, a race, or their supposed
characteristics

Except I'm not hostile, so I can't really have an irrational
attitude of hostility. I can't think of one reason to be
pissed at power gamers. I can think that they would be
better off playing less games, but that's nothing but an
opinion. I've never told a powergamer or anyone "you need to
get a girlfriend (or laid)" like that's somehow more
worthwhile spent time. I've never told someone they should
go outside, or peole are fun too. I can't really think of
one thing to say to a powergamer. In my mind I would think
they're conscious of what they're doing and that's what they
want to do.

<hr></blockquote>

Dude, god damnit. If this were true we wouldn't have a problem, yet you said yourself that my previous lifestyle was a 'stupid ass' one, and that will most definitely be considered hostile.
Let's not forget to mention;
"You're right. I don't respect 24/7 players one fucking tiny little bit. They have willingly entered into a crippling level of addiction and unsympathetic bastard that I am, I will poke fun at them".
That is not only ignorant seeing as it implies powergamers are unable to stop playing games, but also hostile since he openly admits he doesn't respect them and will poke fun at them, like you.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The only way I would actually say anything about the subject
to a powergamer would be A. if the asked my opinion about
their lifestyle. OR B. if some guy was talking about games
and just wouldn't take the hint and shut the fuck up.

<hr></blockquote>

Yes, and I never asked your opinion, if I were to guess you just started this entire thing in hopes of trolling, which you succeeded in, to a certain extent.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

See the problem with your philosphy is basically I can do
whatever I want. If power gamers make a choice to prioritize
gaming. I can make a choice to write papers about how video
games are stupid and a waste of time. If powergamers can do
whatever they wish by proxy of it not harming anyone. I can
say video games are a waste of time. A. it's not directed at
anyone. B. it's not hurting anyone. C. video games have no
feelings, they aren't alive. Scream about my ignorant
opinion all you want you can't disprove it.

<hr></blockquote>

I understand what you mean, though "B." is wrong, it is indeed harmful, just not harmful enough for you to shut the hell up about it.
By the same logic, exaggerated, I am entitled to call everyone I ever meet a "fuckwad", I mean, it's their own fault if they get offended by it.

I'm not going to say that writing said papers would be a moronic thing to do, it's your opinion and you are entitled to it like everyone else and like you said it's not directed at anyone in particular so I wouldn't say it's harmful enough to care about either. Like I said earlier, there is no magic line.

However, did you ever think about just playing it safe and not incite rage wherever you go? Then there wouldn't be all the discussions and flame-mails in your inbox that you can laugh at though...

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Now finally the last thing, let's not forget about the
powergamer who's married or has kids and is not taking care
of them properly. While there are plenty of power gamers who
are well adjusted people. There are plenty who are hurting
people around them because they won't stop playing because
"they made a choice" and made games a "priority". Gaming can
be an addiction and while it may not effect you you're not
representitive of all powergamers past present and future.
So it's not always an issue of not hurting others around
you, anything can be harmful out of proportion.

<hr></blockquote>

We completely agree here, and I can tell you that I would never make that choice if I had a family to take care of, not in a million years.
All the more reason to play games while I can, when I get kids my priorities will change and they will most certainly be the focus of my life.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

What right do I have to judge though.....
I'm not going to do anything about it, but I can think or
say whatever I want. I make a choice to make a general
statement that's not directed at anyone and not hurting
anyone. What right do you have to judge me for excercising a
right?

<hr></blockquote>
I act in self-defense when you directly assault my previous life style, if you were as innocent as you say this discussion wouldn't have started at all.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi#SUICIDE for some
reason this feels relevant to me, at least on the grounds of
making poor powergamers feel inferior...

<hr></blockquote>

Maddox is an interesting fellow, often a fun read and I've read that piece before. He raises and excellent point; people who would take their own life over something so trivial wouldn't last long anyways.

Regardless, my points still stand, I don't have a problem with your opinion as long as you don't shove it down my throat like you did in the first post, you're entitled to it as much as I'm entitled to mine.

By the way, as I've stated numerous times I don't play games that much any more, my priorities changed and I decided that I'd rather practice moderation and work out more since I have the body for it, and visit my friends more often. The thing is, I don't agree with that lifestyle any more, but I respect their choice, that's our main disagreement.

I've poked fun at other powergamers on many an occasion, I just don't go about telling them straight to their faces which only results in flame-wars and attention I don't want (but many do, like trolls).

<P ID="signature"><center><img src=http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Trucido/MegaVin.png>
Coming to cinemas near you! </center></P>

[UncleOral]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

If he were qualified, of course.

<hr></blockquote>

And this guy too? 8)

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Trucido/Manson.jpg

<P ID="signature"><center><img src=http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Trucido/MegaVin.png>
Coming to cinemas near you! </center></P>

[HUMANOID]

Looks fat and lazy, put hes ass to work.<img src=smilies/cwm27.gif>

<P ID="signature"></P>

[HUMANOID]

> Bullshit. Second hand smoke may or may not kill people, but
it IS harmful.
--------------------------------
i am a victim of this since i was a little kid, it has helped ruined my life.
<img src=smilies/angryfire.gif>

<P ID="signature"></P>

[HUMANOID]

> And this guy too? 8)
-------------------------
whats hes qualifications?
<img src=smilies/cwm27.gif>

<P ID="signature"></P>

[UncleOral]

> > And this guy too? 8)
> -------------------------
> whats hes qualifications?

Disposing corpses, putting on make-up and worshipping satan, for the most part.

<P ID="signature"><center><img src=http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Trucido/MegaVin.png>
Coming to cinemas near you! </center></P>

[HUMANOID]

lol<img src=smilies/cwm27.gif><img src=smilies/laff.gif><img src=smilies/werd.gif>

<P ID="signature"></P>

[HUMANOID]

> ... do I have to spell out every bit of common sense inherent in my ...
------------------------------
yes you must <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>
*escapes from backroom just in time*

<P ID="signature"></P>

[Mr. Saturn]

> i am a victim of this since i was a little kid, it has
> helped ruined my life.
>

I've lived with two smokers since I was born, and my life is just fan-fucking-tastic.

<P ID="signature"><marquee direction=left scrollamount=8><img src=http://tinyurl.com/uetp></marquee>
Cheezy: I bet someone will bring up Necrophilia.
Fla_Flash: That's pretty much a dead fucking issue.
</P>

[HUMANOID]

> I've lived with two smokers since I was born, and my life is
just fan-fucking-tastic.
-------------------------------------
must have been yesterday.
just kidding.
i wish i was you.
<img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

<P ID="signature"></P>

[TheRobbit]

well shit I accidentally erased everything I had written so I'll abridge it (and after typing a new post I think I wroe something better)

Basically there is a difference between not liking something and being harmed by it. I don't like cigarette smoke, doesn't mean that's it's harming me. I don't like twinkies, it doesn't make them poison.

So while it may annoy me, being annoyed isn't harmful. I consider freedom and truth to be a bit more important than my comfort. The studies that aren't made up show that secondhand smoke isn't a factor at all.

There are a lot of things I don't like and I'm not gonna start claiming it's harmful and make shit up so I can get it outlawed.

The thing is at the end of your post you say you have made fun of powergamers. But you seem to assume that I and the guy you first posted apart somehow would do it differently so it's personally offensive. Like maybe my friend jack is a powergamer and I tell him what a loser he is? All I have ever talked about was a general group, because at an individual level things are never the same. I wouldn't say Jack is a loser because he's my friend (made him up)

I might say power gamers are losers. I never said anything about harassing individuals. Our whole arguement has been geared toward the general group and then it comes out you're worried about the individual.

Well duh -_-, I usually don't go around telling people they suck because I don't like their hobbies. But whether it's power gamers or starwars fans, culture groups and stereotypes are not safe.

I always feel annoyed when arguements are based off the smallest misunderstanding. I sort of think that's what happened with the guy you first posted about. I think he was referring to the group as a whole not an individual.

But this sentence he do not understand how anyone can sit in front of a computer and play games for 20 hours a day, so he do not respect it, and when he do not respect it, he is magically entitled to beat it down at every opportunity and treat it like it would be the choice of a depraved and inferior human being.

I think it was just taken out of context. I don't think he was talking about going after individuals, it was just an expression of disdain over a generalized group.

Your talk about respect got me going because of your use of the word respect (defined: high or special regard ). It's a word that get's misused a lot I think. I said I respect their right that powergamers to make that choice. I respect their rights, they can do whatever they want. Because I do hold their rights in high regard. I don't hold the activity of playing video games, even cool ones for 20 hours in high regard. So by definition I don't respect their lifestyle. It's not disrespect, it's just "so what? you play video games for 20 hours and you want actual respect for that? ya rght... ok"

Maybe I just don't do well with demands. Respect normally doesn't need to be demanded anyway. When someone says I should respect this or that it just makes me wonder why. If I need to be told then it seems kind of flaky.

Despite what I have said I don't recall ever making fun of powergamers I've never really thought about them. I've thought guys who have killed themselves over Everquest are retarded. I think that korean chap they found dead in a bathroom at an internet cafe after playing (I forget) for 35+ hours was a sad case.

I've never really run into a powergamer probably, maybe they don't play my games, or maybe I just never notice. I just like to play devils advocate too much.

Anyways a lack of respect doesn't mean disrespect and it seems like we agree that making fun of the general group (that almost no one fits into the stereotype completely anyway) is alright.

That's the problem, argueing about the general group is we both can make statements that the other will just show is not universally true. Talking about whether powergames can or can't quit, it's a stalemate because some can indeed stop, and some can't and in 1 or 2 extreme cases would rather just die. Same thing if I said powergamers were lazy, fat, ugly, stupid, anti-social, poor, white, black whatever. It will always be the same, some are some aren't.

I'm sure there is some girl powergamer who is so beautiful and interesting you and I would probably fight to the death over her for a date.

I'm also sure there is some powergamer we'd wonderif they were actually human.

I like the picture in your sig too ^_^.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted
http://rob.therobbit.com</P>

[UncleOral]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I might say power gamers are losers. I never said anything
about harassing individuals. Our whole arguement has been
geared toward the general group and then it comes out you're
worried about the individual.

<hr></blockquote>

Yes, when it comes to generalizing I'm probably more cynical than you are, however I'm defending against it in this case, because it most certainly doesn't apply to me and I have a very keen understanding of this issue since I've been doing it a good portion of my life.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Well duh -_-, I usually don't go around telling people they
suck because I don't like their hobbies. But whether it's
power gamers or starwars fans, culture groups and
stereotypes are not safe.

<hr></blockquote>

Duh indeed, I've met people who happen to do that sort of thing, however, and I'm forever cynical, so excuse me for misunderstanding you.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I always feel annoyed when arguements are based off the
smallest misunderstanding. I sort of think that's what
happened with the guy you first posted about. I think he was
referring to the group as a whole not an individual.

<hr></blockquote>

Well, ours were, but the other guy is a whole nother story.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

But this sentence he do not understand how anyone can sit
in front of a computer and play games for 20 hours a day, so
he do not respect it, and when he do not respect it, he is
magically entitled to beat it down at every opportunity and
treat it like it would be the choice of a depraved and
inferior human being.

I think it was just taken out of context. I don't think he
was talking about going after individuals, it was just an
expression of disdain over a generalized group.

<hr></blockquote>

Yeah well he still went after me, personally. I'd say that's an attack on an individual and not a group. The whole discussion started off revolving around me after an earlier poster (not the guy I quoted) in the thread started acting like a moron and calling me names.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Your talk about respect got me going because of your use of
the word respect (defined: high or special regard ). It's a
word that get's misused a lot I think. I said I respect
their right that powergamers to make that choice. I respect
their rights, they can do whatever they want. Because I do
hold their rights in high regard. I don't hold the activity
of playing video games, even cool ones for 20 hours in high
regard. So by definition I don't respect their lifestyle.
It's not disrespect, it's just "so fucking what?" you play
video games for 20 hours and you want respect?

<hr></blockquote>

I guess the word I am looking for is tolerance, or some word that describes any non-hostile way of handling it even if you do not agree with it. Forgive me, I'm not a native English speaker, but I try to sound as coherent as possible and get my point across. I guess it goes to show that I failed at that.


<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Maybe I just don't do well with demands. Respect normally
doesn't need to be demanded anyway. When someone says I
should respect this or that it just makes me wonder why. If
I need to be told then it seems kind of flaky.

<hr></blockquote>

I know what you mean, like I said, respect is probably a too strong word if you are going to go by the general usage like you said; to hold up high in esteem\regard, which by that definition I wouldn't say I respect powergaming either.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I'm sure there is some girl powergamer who is so beautiful
and interesting you and I would probably fight to the death
over her for a date.

<hr></blockquote>

(disclaimer: while that picture is work safe, the rest of the site is NSFW)
Indeed. (http://www.asiacarrera.com/athome/fraggirl.jpg) (ok maybe not powergamer...but I'd still fight you over her. ;D)

(On another note about her, is it sad that the first thing I notice about the picture isn't her large bosom nor her erotic mini-skirt but the fact that she doesn't use WSAD? I'm such a nerdgeek. ;_;)

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I'm also sure there is some powergamer we'd wonderif they
were actually human.

<hr></blockquote>

I've gotten quite a few 'robot' remarks in the past...I played Diablo for 105 hours straight once, I was kind of hallucinating the last day and I can't remember much of it at all, my friends said I were spewing out incoherent stuff like, "Heh, succubus and cheeze..." and "No damnit, shoebox!".
A friend had also apparantly asked me where the football were, and I had responded; "But it's the only one we got...", then he asked again, "Yes, but where the fuck is it?", and I'd go again, "Yeah, but we only got that one...".
I seriously don't remember any of that shit. Powergaming at it's worst, indeed.

By the way I apologize for thinking you were trolling, I'm cynical (3rd time I've said it in this post, banning it's use for my next 50 posts), and quite prejudiced, I know.

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

I like the picture in your sig too ^_^.

<hr></blockquote>

Thanks! I like the designs on your site (Kawaii!), and I found the whole 'Prince Charming == Skye' in the 'Rob. Word' section funny. :)

<P ID="signature"><center><img src=http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Trucido/MegaVin.png>
Coming to cinemas near you! </center></P>

[king killa]

> It's certainly annoying, but where's your proof? Just saying
> it doesn't make it true.
>

same goes for you.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[Danoz]

> And this guy too? 8)

For... a clerk job?

<P ID="signature">http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)</P>

[TheRobbit]

(disclaimer: while that picture is work safe, the rest of the site is NSFW)
Indeed. (ok maybe not powergamer...but I'd still fight you over her. ;D)

hehe you can have her I don't know if I'm that attracted to ol Asia.

(On another note about her, is it sad that the first thing I notice about the picture isn't her large bosom nor her erotic mini-skirt but the fact that she doesn't use WSAD? I'm such a nerdgeek. ;_;)

ROFL you're right! I kind of wondered why her keyboard was way off the stand, I assumed she wanted mouse room and I was trying to figure out what she was playing.

I remember the days trying to switch over from consoles, it was quite a while before I used a mouse and keyboard for FPS'es. When I finally did I played the way she's playing for years. My best CS years where that way (god I hate CS) I finally started using WASD I forget when. I think when I moved to Flint.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted
http://rob.therobbit.com</P>

[TheRobbit]

> same goes for you.

Except what's this? http://www.nycclash.com/CaseAgainstBans/EPA.html fucking read it this time newb.

of and this ? http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7398/1057

Both of those links where in my post moron. Obviously you choose to ignore them or you wouldn't have made both of your dumbass replies.

I told you just saying something doesn't make it true, and you told me the same thing is true. I didn't just say it, I backed it up jackass. I have proof, an actual study conducted over a 30 year period and proof that the EPA study that the whole anti secondhand smoke movement is based on, is made up bullshit. You can't agrue it because it's a matter of legal history that has never been reversed because there is no way the EPA can win, the evidence against them is overwhelming. The arguement the EPA is attempting with their bogus report is based less in fact then this statement; Crime goes up in the summer, so do ice cream sales, ice cream must contribute to crime, let's ban ice cream.

So you don't like ice ceam, shut the fuck up.

What more do you want? I'm sure I can find more, and it's still 200% more than anything factual you have posted.

<img src=smilies/flipa.gif> I win putz.

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my fear,
both granted
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[SpaceTiger]

> Except what's this?
> http://www.nycclash.com/CaseAgainstBans/EPA.html fucking
> read it this time newb.

You need a serious attitude adjustment. There is absolutely no reason that you need to act like a fucking prick over something like this. People make mistakes and he was courteous to you the whole way through. Please take your insecurities elsewhere.

As for your claims about second-hand smoke, they're dubious, at best. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_18691.htmlHere</a> is an example of a study done just this year that claims harmful effects from second-hand smoke. I certainly don't find your links any more convincing than a lot of the other stuff a google search turns up; in fact, I find them less so. Furthermore, in order to claim that smoking is only harmful to the person smoking, you would have to refute all of the claimed effects, including heart disease and asthma. Forgive me if I don't think you have the knowledge or expertise to definitively set this issue to rest.

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[king killa]

Both those sites say it doesn't cause LUNG CANCER. My post said it may or may not kill someone, but it does harm them.

My brother smokes, I have to sit in the car when he does it. His window is jammed. I breath in the smoke and cough like a mother. If you're gonna sit there and say that it is perfectly healthy to breath in smoke, than you're a fucking moron.

I win

[Fla Flash]

Play nice.<img src=smilies/director.gif>

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[MooglyGuy]

> Play nice.

killa's already proven himself enough of a dumbass by not even being able to conjugate the word "prejudice" throughout this thread, and then arguing that it's not a misspelling because he was just using the wrong word - basically, "I'm not wrong because I'm wrong."

<P ID="signature">http://www.zophar.net/Files/mooglish.png
"Kupo, motherfucker!! DO YOU SPEAK IT!?"</P>

[SpaceTiger]

> killa's already proven himself enough of a dumbass by not
> even being able to conjugate the word "prejudice" throughout
> this thread, and then arguing that it's not a misspelling
> because he was just using the wrong word - basically, "I'm
> not wrong because I'm wrong."

I thought we already agreed how stupid it was to judge and mock somebody because of spelling/grammar. This incessant nitpicking is making me question your judgement much more than his.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[king killa]

no text

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[MooglyGuy]

> no text
>


<P ID="signature">http://www.zophar.net/Files/mooglish.png
"Kupo, motherfucker!! DO YOU SPEAK IT!?"</P>

[king killa]

> Why are you so "prejudice" against me?

1) Let it go, asshole.
2) I'm not being prejudiced, because you really are an asshole.
3) Contribute to the discussion, or shut the fuck up. You choose.

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[Cornellius]

> I thought we already agreed how stupid it was to judge and
> mock somebody because of spelling/grammar. This incessant
> nitpicking is making me question your judgement much more
> than his.

Ditto. Live and let live.

<P ID="signature">__________________________________________________ _______________

'' I dreamt I was a moron '' - Squall Leonhart </P>

[icenine0]

3y3 46R33, |_3+'2 |_1\/3 4|\||) |_3+ |_1\/3

> Ditto. Live and let live.


<P ID="signature">The more often you fail, the sweeter the taste of success!</P>

[MooglyGuy]

> 3y3 46R33, |_3+'2 |_1\/3 4|\||) |_3+ |_1\/3

ya d00d l0l we shud b ab3l 2 tak ne way we wnat, rite!?!?!/1/1/1/ LOLOLOLOL

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[Fla Flash]

Staff member or not, you don't have the right of godlike knowledge.
Stop it Ryan.
I've had enough.

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Diary of a Vigilante III...The Homecoming.. (http://www.freewebs.com/mewscorner/)</P>

[HUMANOID]

>...- basically, "I'm not wrong because I'm wrong."
----------------------
you sound like people i know who fight over things like whos turn it is to do the dishes.


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[king killa]

nt

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[MooglyGuy]

wut? we can typ however we want... its not my problem that u dont like teh way i type... this is just teh way i will type... no problem, rite?

<P ID="signature">http://www.zophar.net/Files/mooglish.png
"Kupo, motherfucker!! DO YOU SPEAK IT!?"</P>

[Cornellius]

Knock it fucking off. It's not the way you type, it's the fact that you type like that JUST TO piss off Flash.

<P ID="signature">__________________________________________________ _______________

'' I dreamt I was a moron '' - Squall Leonhart </P>

[Fla Flash]

I was born and raised in Connecticut.
I now live and have, for the last ten years, in Florida.
You'd be surprised the difference in the two states.


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Diary of a Vigilante III...The Homecoming.. (http://www.freewebs.com/mewscorner/)</P>

[Kuikorosu]

This topic has spiraled out of control.

I don't usually suggest this due to the fact that it's usually looked down on...

But someone just lock this shit already. People are arguing about how to use the word "prejudice" in a sentence, for fuck's sake.

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Name: Kuik
Level: 38BLM/20RDM/15THF/10NIN/8WHM /8SAM
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Server: Fenrir
Linkshell: CursorSolaris</P>

[Fla Flash]

> This topic has spiraled out of control.


I agree with that statement. But I'm not an english teacher. "Word Abuse" is not a punishable crime....yet.

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[Cornellius]

I would lock the whole forum. <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

<P ID="signature">__________________________________________________ _______________

'' I dreamt I was a moron '' - Squall Leonhart </P>

[TheRobbit]

may not kill someone, but it does harm them.

how does it harm anyone? coughing is not harmful.

My sister burns incense in the car, it gives me a headache and can make me cough too.

Cough medicine makes me gag.

Just because I don't like either of them and I may have some kind of reaction to them does not make them harmful.

Peanuts are not harmful, but some people are allergic too them. If you're a serious asthmatic then secondhand smoke is something you should probably avoid.

Don't mistake discomfort as harm. I don't like perfume, it also gives me a headache, but I'm not going to pretend it's potentially endangering my health so I don't have to put up with it.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
my fear,
both granted
http://rob.therobbit.com</P>

[HUMANOID]

> Knock it fucking off. It's not the way you type, it's the
fact that you type like that JUST TO piss off Flash.
----------------------
<img src=smilies/cwm27.gif> aaah shit, this is getting too funny.
you know Moogle thrives off thowes word and grows stronger.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[HUMANOID]

> This topic has spiraled out of control. ... People are arguing
about how to use the word "prejudice" in a sentence, for
fuck's sake.
-----------------------------
<img src=smilies/cwm27.gif> its funny cuz its true

<P ID="signature"></P>

[TheRobbit]

Let's look at the conversation, then I made a claim and posted proof to back it up. In response he said it was blullshit and that it was harmful. I told him saying stuff doesn't make it true, where's his proof. He told me the same goes for you. Which in fucking incrediable since I posted proof, so it's obvious the dink didn't read it. Then the only proof he offers later on is anecdotal evidence which is ignored in science anyway.

I could say magnent therapy works because it makes me feel good. That doesn't mean it's actually does anything (it's proven magnents don't do dick). People believe second hand smoke is bad for them, so second hand smoke makes them feel bad. It doesn't mean it's actually harmful.

Don't even try to compare that 6 sentence "article" to proof that the EPA study was made up bullshit. You can look on google about the court case. It's indisputed fact the EPA either couldn't prove it's case so it made shit up or it was to lazy to do the job right. Take your pick, either one kind of wrecks their credibility.

The second thing I posted was a 30 year study following 118,000 people which I think would be a little more accurate than a a study conducted only 66% as long using 59 times less people.

You sort of see how percentages without hard numbers to base them off can inflate figures? Up to 60%? But what was the actual percentage, what was the least? See that's what we call persuasive writing. Because if I was trying to downplay the results I would write "may increase the risk of heart disease by as little as 5% percent".

I was curious about the continine thing so I looked it up. http://www.fbr.org/publications/pamphlets/cotininefaq.html the thing about that link you posted is it doesn't even talk about how the secondhand smoke level compared too smokers levels. They didn't post that because I'm willing the to bet the ammounts where so low compared to actual smokers it's laughable.

And they don't even explain how the got the number 80,000. It's obviously a projection since they only followed 2,000 people, and again "may be responsible for as many as 80,000 heart attacks each year ". I'm really wary of articles that just throw numbers out without some hard results. I want to see some math here.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_18641.html "People who were non-smokers but had relatively high levels of cotinine had a heart disease risk of about 50 percent higher than those people who were exposed to low levels," how many people actually had high levels, how many people over that 20 year period from the high level group actually got sick?

Previous studies had estimated the increased risk of heart disease from passive smoking in non-smokers at 25 to 30 percent. $50 says they're getting that number from the falsified 1993 EPA report.

Try posting something good next time at least.

<P ID="signature">your wish,
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both granted
http://rob.therobbit.com</P>

[HUMANOID]

what sucks is that most everybody at Z.D. dosnt see what you mean but what you say, so you have to explane what youv ment after youve wrote it. <img src=smilies/upeyes.gif>
one of meny examples, fucken A (http://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=diaries&Number=232266&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&part=) is something ive taken both ways but others have not, but everyone knew what was ment that time. everyone speeks their own.
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[SpaceTiger]

> Let's look at the conversation, then I made a claim and
> posted proof to back it up. In response he said it was
> blullshit and that it was harmful. I told him saying stuff
> doesn't make it true, where's his proof.

I'm not saying that you were wrong, I'm saying that you were acting like a jackass. You seem to think that being right justifies anything you do.


> Don't even try to compare that 6 sentence "article" to proof
> that the EPA study was made up bullshit. You can look on
> google about the court case. It's indisputed fact the EPA
> either couldn't prove it's case so it made shit up or it was
> to lazy to do the job right. Take your pick, either one kind
> of wrecks their credibility.

Ok, you want more?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11466122&dopt=AbstractOne</a>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8320789&dopt=AbstractTwo</a>
http://cancercontrol.cancer.gov/tcrb/monographs/10/Three</a>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2053840.stmFour</a>

Even some of the fucking tobacco companies are admitting that it's a health risk: http://www.philipmorrisusa.com/health_issues/secondhand_smoke.aspLink</a>

As for the study you posted, it seems to have been sponsored by the tobacco industry:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=%5CForeignBureaus%5Car chive%5C200305%5CFOR20030516d.htmlLink</a>


> The second thing I posted was a 30 year study following
> 118,000 people which I think would be a little more accurate
> than a a study conducted only 66% as long using 59 times
> less people.

Not if the science is done badly. See the link above.


> "People who were non-smokers but had relatively high levels of cotinine had a
> heart disease risk of about 50 percent higher than those people who were
> exposed to low levels," how many people actually had high levels, how many
> people over that 20 year period from the high level group actually got sick?

Maybe you should read thehttp://bmj.com/cgi/reprint/bmj.38146.427188.55v1?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=Whincup&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1088793369396_6886&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1 journal article</a> instead of the news story. <img src=smilies/upeyes.gif>


> Try posting something good next time at least.

Try using a little critical thinking. A google search can turn up an article giving almost any point of view and almost always have a convincing argument for it. I didn't post more articles before because I figured you were competent enough to do the search yourself. Maybe I was wrong. Either way, your few-sentence analyses of popular media articles are not particularly convincing. Once you've read through the article, verified the math, understood all the medical terms, analyzed the sample selection and possible biases, and written a full report of your findings, I'll be happy to listen to you. Till then, give it a rest. Neither one of us is qualified to resolve this issue definitively, but I'm strongly inclined to lean in the direction of the majority opinion of the medical community.

<P ID="signature">http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif</P>

[king killa]

I think SpaceTiger tackled this argument pretty good.

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[mrfreeze]

> I think SpaceTiger tackled this argument pretty good.
>
Pretty well. I'm joking i'm joking!!!

<P ID="signature"><image src=http://imageshack.us/files/donsig2.gif></P>

[Canar]

My two cents: let people do as they please, and social cliques will form. This is perfectly normal. If we allow discrimination, society will slowly grow to segregate itself naturally. Imposing non-discrimination legally is not right. I think we should get the government right out of that area. So long as minorities are granted equal rights by the laws of the land (although the legislation should merely grant the rights to everyone, and not include the names of any group in the legislation), no anti-discrimination legislation is required. People will form their own social means of combating discrimination, assuming it's as abhorrent as everyone seems to think it is.

I'm being sort of tangential here; I'm not sure how thoroughly I agree with the argument I just presented, but it's an alternative, and it's probably pretty logically defensible.

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[king killa]

> Pretty well. I'm joking i'm joking!!!
>

<img src=smilies/laff.gif><img src=smilies/laff.gif>

<P ID="signature"></P>

[thegodofhellfire]

> I'm being sort of tangential here; I'm not sure how
> thoroughly I agree with the argument I just presented, but
> it's an alternative, and it's probably pretty logically
> defensible.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but voluntary segregation can be equally destructive. Look at the situation with Northern Ireland, for example, where you have Catholic and Protestant neighbourhoods and schools. Where segregation on that sort of scale occurs, the lack of contact with those from whom you're segregated fuels prejudice and intolerance. It's only through proximity that you can 'demystify' those of other races, religions, sexualities etc, and neutralise most of the ill-felling which stems from ignorance. While it's impossible to make people live together, we have to discourage them from living apart. Incidentally, and on another topic I won't say any more on for the moment, I'm all for the prohibition of faith-based shcools for that very reason.

<P ID="signature"></P>

[Canar]

> Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but voluntary
> segregation can be equally destructive. Look at the
> situation with Northern Ireland, for example, where you have
> Catholic and Protestant neighbourhoods and schools.

There, they're breaking the law. That isn't acceptable. I don't have an easy solution, but the situation is about as un-Christian as exists. The religious leaders on both sides must condemn it. The origins of the hatred are in part religious, so if religion can be worked with to solve a part of the problem, all the better. I understand that perhaps the fundamental issue is the fact the British control of N. Ireland, but the fewer reasons to fight, the better.

> It's only through proximity that you can 'demystify' those of other races, religions,
> sexualities etc, and neutralise most of the ill-felling
> which stems from ignorance. While it's impossible to make
> people live together, we have to discourage them from living
> apart.

The thing is, if someone finds a behaviour morally abhorrent (ie. most religions and homosexuality), proximity won't solve the problem. If we take the segregation idea to a greater extent and create actual legislative bodies in which the ("naturally" occurring) segregated groups exist, then the leaders of the bodies may be able to work together better than the general populace. There are places where my idea won't work. However, I think that compared to enforcing non-discrimination, the two systems may work out to be equally flawed in the end.

> Incidentally, and on another topic I won't say any
> more on for the moment, I'm all for the prohibition of
> faith-based shcools for that very reason.

Good Christian schools should teach the children to go out, make friends and contacts in the non-Christian world, and allow the way you live your life to show Jesus' love and the truth of Christianity. Whether or not you say more, this is a tenet of Christianity that Christian schools should be instilling. If they're not, they're failing in their indoctrination.


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[thegodofhellfire]

> I understand that perhaps the fundamental issue is the fact
> the British control of N. Ireland, but the fewer reasons to fight, the
> better.

You're right that the church is in this situation best positioned to deal with the conflict, but unfortunately there's no such body in many other situations. Incidentally, as I understand it the majority of the NI population is Unionist (ie pro-British rule/occupation), though it's near impossible to get any accurate information on the political situation there, being as polarised as it is.

> If we take the segregation idea to a greater extent and create
> actual legislative bodies in which the ("naturally" occurring)
> segregated groups exist, then the leaders of the bodies may be
> able to work together better than the general populace.

I have to admit that I'm rather sceptical about this. The only example of it I can think of are the efforts to establish a Volkstaat in South Africa, and the very idea of a new Afrikaner state of this nature fills me with dread. Having said that, if you have an example of an occasion where this has worked, I'm all ears.

> Good Christian schools should teach the children to go out,
> make friends and contacts in the non-Christian world, and
> allow the way you live your life to show Jesus' love and the
> truth of Christianity.

Perhaps this is true, but to be honest in my experience (in Scotland) the presence of faith schools tends to prove divisive more than anything else. Rivalry between neighbouring schools is one thing (and an absolutely normal thing at that), but when your rivals have a single, unifying, characteristic diametrically opposed to your own, such as Catholic as opposed to Protestant, that tends to inflame prejudice. Again, though, I'd stand to be happily corrected if in your experience segregation of any sort has quelled any kind of societal tension.

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[thegodofhellfire]

> I have to admit that I'm rather sceptical about this. The only
> example of it I can think of are the efforts to establish a Volkstaat
> in South Africa, and the very idea of a new Afrikaner state of this
> nature fills me with dread. Having said that, if you have an
> example of an occasion where this has worked, I'm all ears.

Wait... Canada already kind of does this, doesn't it? Does it work well for you guys? Having said that, I don't suppose the Anglo-French divide isn't quite the same as the racial one.

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[Venomthekid]

??????
<P ID="signature"><marquee>Fous le camp.</marquee></P>

[MegaManJuno]

Wow... what a way to necro-post in a nearly 2 year old topic AND supply nothing meaningful in the process either. <img src=smilies/retard.gif><img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/MegaManJuno/yousuck.jpg
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[pipes clangor]

lol<img src=smilies/laff.gif>

EDIT WHEN LOCKED WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

<P ID="signature">The pipes clangor all the time!</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by pipes clangor on 05/17/06 08:33 PM.</FONT></P>

[Fla Flash]

I'm locking this. Jesus.
TWO FUCKING YEARS????
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