Justify your religion, or lack of one. [Archive]

Ernst

06-18-2004, 06:54 AM

I don't need to justify anything for I am a Discordian.

Have a look at out commandments

I - There is no Goddess but Goddess and She is Your Goddess. There is no Erisian Movement but The Erisian Movement and it is The Erisian Movement. And every Golden Apple Corps is the beloved home of a Golden Worm.

II - A Discordian Shall Always use the Official Discordian Document Numbering System.

III - A Discordian is Required during his early Illumination to Go Off Alone & Partake Joyously of a Hot Dog on a Friday; this Devotive Ceremony to Remonstrate against the popular Paganisms of the Day: of Catholic Christendom (no meat on Friday), of Judaism (no meat of Pork), of Hindic Peoples (no meat of Beef), of Buddhists (no meat of animal), and of Discordians (no Hot Dog Buns).

IV - A Discordian shall Partake of No Hot Dog Buns, for Such was the Solace of Our Goddess when She was Confronted with The Original Snub.

V - A Discordian is Prohibited of Believing what he reads.

or even better read our bible http://www.principiadiscordia.com

SpaceTiger

06-18-2004, 07:55 AM

I've expended much time and effort doing that on this board, so I won't go into a lot of detail here. The short version:

I'm agnostic because I don't think mortals are equipped to judge the existence or non-existence of God (as it's usually defined). I admit all spiritual/religious possibilities, but reject the suggestion that another human could know for sure.

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blackize

06-18-2004, 02:59 PM

I believe religion as a whole was created as means by ancient rulers to control their subjects through fear of an all-powerful being. When I was a young boy, my parents took me to a Roman Catholic church on Sundays where I attended Sunday school up until my stepfather's death when I was 7. Ever since then, I kinda fell out of the whole religion thing and really don't believe in anything anymore. Also, religion can make the extremely devoted to fucked up things in the name of their God (i.e., 9/11). That's why I am pretty much against all religion. That and those Christians preach to everyone how wrong violence in video games is and that listening to certain music will certainly earn you a seat in Hell. Any religion that tries to preach and push its values on you, in my opinion, is inherently evil.

acromion

06-18-2004, 03:05 PM

> I'm agnostic because I don't think mortals are equipped to
> judge the existence or non-existence of God (as it's usually
> defined). I admit all spiritual/religious possibilities,
> but reject the suggestion that another human could know for
> sure.

I'm similar. Technically I'm an agnostic too, but unfortunately I find myself physically unable to avoid rebuttal of people who proclaim that their religion is 'truth'. Thus to anyone who doesn't actually ask me to state my position, I'm a god-hating atheist who, according to Dante, will end up burning in the sixth level of hell, in the City of Dis, with all the other heretics. Should be fun.

Disch

06-18-2004, 05:04 PM

I was a Jehova's Witness in my childhood. I distinctly remember having a strong belief... but eventually my parents sort of gave up on it, and we stopped going to the Kingdom Hall. I still believed for a while after that (and in fact my sister kept going on her own for a while longer). But somewhere along the line I lost my faith. Don't remember when exactly... but thems the breaks. Today I consider myself atheist... although I could be agnostic. I more or less don't really care whether or not there really is a God... but at the same time I just think the whole idea of a supreme being that always was is a rediculous fairy tale.

Over time I grew to hate beliefs which use scare tactics to solicit membership ("join our faith or burn in hell!"). I don't know if this was because I once was a Witness or not... but that really gets under my skin. I've found that most denominations use this tactic in one form or another... and so I find myself sometimes unfairly biased against religion in general (even those beliefs I have no problem with).

If there is a God... I'd imagine He/She/It/they would accept people for the kind of life they lead, not for their religious practice. If God is so shallow that he'll comdemn an atheist who's led a good and honest life, but will save a mass murderer who repented before his death... then I'm not sure I want to go to heaven anyway.

Bullshit laws/rules are another problem I have with many beliefs. In the big picture... what does it really matter whether or not you eat meat on friday. I mean really. I seriously doubt God would have a problem with something so petty when there's tons of more serious problems going on.

Anyway that about sums it up.

IceWolf20

06-18-2004, 05:16 PM

> If there is a God... I'd imagine He/She/It/they would accept
> people for the kind of life they lead, not for their
> religious practice. If God is so shallow that he'll comdemn
> an atheist who's led a good and honest life, but will save a
> mass murderer who repented before his death

Ok....without getting into the nitty gritty of what (may or may not) happen at death, or getting specific into the "they're right and they're wrong" bullshit....I think your perception is a bit skewed. Just because an individual denies the existence of Gd that does not mean that He will not love them....they are still his children (bear with me here....this is for arguments sake), and will be treated no differently in the end for what they have or have not done in life (now this is where it gets a bit sticky depending on your faith...but we'll go Christian for the sake of the majority argument in the US). The concept of "purgatory" is one in which a preparation and purification of the soul happens to clense it of the sins of life. Depending on what you have/haven't done in life, determines the length of your stay in purgatory. If, while in purgatory, you do not turn to the truth (lets not get on an arument about "truth"....just an illustration) and even once Gd has revealed his power to you, and you still reject him....then you burn. (Bear in mind, this is just one interpretation of one religion, and is in no way able to be taken as the "true" or "correct" version therein....just trying to illustrate a counterpoint to your statement).

> Bullshit laws/rules are another problem I have with many
> beliefs. In the big picture... what does it really matter
> whether or not you eat meat on friday. I mean really. I
> seriously doubt God would have a problem with something so
> petty when there's tons of more serious problems going on.

It's not about the meat.....not eating meat is a personal sacrifice symbolizing your sacrifice with Christ. Meat has nothing to do with it, and there probably no reason why it is meat now....its just "the way it's always been". Hell, they could make it brocolli, and it still means the same thing in the end. Its about self control and self denail of desires, restraint...to remind us of the suffering and sacrifce Christ endured to save us. Remember....key word here is "symbolism".

<div align="center">http://stuorgs.lvc.edu/acm/_private/ZMD.gif
...the way to be!</div>

Disch

06-18-2004, 05:48 PM

> Just because an individual denies the existence of Gd that
> does not mean that He will not love them....

My view here is almost undoubtedly speaking from my experience as a Witness. Witnesses say that if you are not a Witness, you will not be saved. Bottom line.

I know this doesn't exactly apply to other faiths... but many do use similar (note: not as severe) scare tactics. The term "God fearing" illustrates it quite well. You can be a God fearing man but still do evil* things.... and you can not be God fearing and never do anything evil*.... so the term doesn't really relate to anything other than your practice of faith.

* I use the term "evil" loosly to mean any serious thing morally wrong (like stealing, killing, etc)

> It's not about the meat.....not eating meat is a personal
> sacrifice symbolizing your sacrifice with Christ. [snip]
> Remember....key word here is "symbolism".

That probably was a bad example on my part. Again this probably spawned from my Witness upbringing... where they forbade you from doing pretty much anything (no celebrating Christmas, Easter or even birthdays)

Your point well taken on this part.

Drako_Dragon

06-18-2004, 05:52 PM

> Okay, and go.
>
No really why should I?
I belive what I want and you belive what you want, and we all get along by not telling each other what we should belive.

<hr> Disk Error: Please Insert Disk 7 of 5.

'Veni, Vidi, Velcro' - I came, I saw, I stuck around.

JCJones86

06-18-2004, 06:05 PM

> i don't consider myself buddhist but i'm investigating it.
> I enjoy the teachings i've learned from some books i've read
> on zen buddhism. i've tried to apply some of the ideas in
> my life and I've felt more peaceful and empowered.

I'm on the same boat. My family doesn't like me investigating Buddhism, but this is the same family that never bothered taking me to church and teaching me otherwise. Even if you weren't to take up Buddhism as your religion, you can learn quite a lot from their teachings. <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

SpaceTiger

06-18-2004, 06:34 PM

> No really why should I?
> I belive what I want and you belive what you want, and we
> all get along by not telling each other what we should
> belive.

In my experience, beliefs are the primary reason that people don't get along. You don't have to be actively coercing people into your belief system for it to have an effect on them. If you vote or have any interaction with people on a regular basis, your belief system is going to come out. Ethical judgements are based on a belief system. Practical decisions are often based on belief systems. It's true that there are many beliefs that are, for all intents and purposes, inconsequential to others, but they are the minority.

I do, of course, think that tolerance is a great thing and I don't think people exercise it nearly enough. However, in most cases, I don't think it's accurate to say that a belief system is only the concern of the believer.

http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif

Danoz

06-18-2004, 11:23 PM

I think the way you set up this thread is fairly stupid. "Justify your faith... go" -- how about some text involving your thoughts and opinions on the subject, first? Maybe some questions in particular that you want us to answer. I'm a Christian, and I know for a fact that you would find the reasons I would give insufficient, no matter what they were. To make a long story short, I have no desire to Ã¢â‚¬Å“justify my religionÃ¢â‚¬Â to anybody here. If you have questions, go for it-- and IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll give you the best answer that I can.

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SpaceTiger

06-18-2004, 11:45 PM

> If you have questions, go for
> it-- and IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll give you the best answer that I can.

Here's one:

How can you justify your religion?

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Danoz

06-18-2004, 11:49 PM

> How can you justify your religion?

If being a smart ass makes you happy <img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

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Disch

06-19-2004, 12:06 AM

I took the point of the thread to be sort of just an explaination of your beliefs. I don't think anyone is going to be starting up arguments about religion... I just think this is an opening for us to explain where we stand and what we believe. Or at least that's how I was interpreting it.

SpaceTiger

06-19-2004, 12:08 AM

> > How can you justify your religion?
>
> If being a smart ass makes you happy

It does, but I see nothing wrong with the question posed to you. I knew when I gave my justification that you wouldn't agree with it, but that didn't prevent me from posting it.

http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif

Danoz

06-19-2004, 12:13 AM

> It does, but I see nothing wrong with the question posed to
> you. I knew when I gave my justification that you wouldn't
> agree with it, but that didn't prevent me from posting it.

What about my religion should I justify? The whole religion? The reasons I'm a Christian? Justify God? I'm asking for a concentrated question. It's was a lazy thread with little or no thought.

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SpaceTiger

06-19-2004, 12:17 AM

> What about my religion should I justify? The whole religion?
> The reasons I'm a Christian? Justify God? I'm asking for a
> concentrated question.

Whatever you like. Nobody's going to jump in and say, "oh, you should have said this instead of this." Look at the responses so far.

> It's was a lazy thread with little or
> no thought.

I disagree. I think that open-ended threads are often much better than very specific questions because they make for more interesting responses.

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Narvick

06-19-2004, 01:18 AM

Religion isn't something you justify. It's just the way it is.

:D!

CEpeep

06-19-2004, 01:20 AM

> What about my religion should I justify? The whole religion?
> The reasons I'm a Christian? Justify God? I'm asking for a
> concentrated question. It's was a lazy thread with little or
> no thought.
>

I agree with SpaceTiger. Just talk about whatever you wish. Aside from some of your political views, I agree with you on a lot of things, and I think you'd probably be a nice guy to meet. I'm always interested in why people see things the way they do, and religion is certainly a part of that. It's simply food for thought. This thread isn't a religious argument, and you don't need to evangalize to anybody. Just talk about some things you belive, and say how you justify them.

<hr>
"Every gun that is made every warship launched every rocket fired signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed those who are cold and are not clothed"
Eisenhower

thegodofhellfire

06-19-2004, 01:21 AM

> Okay, and go.

I believe in God, but also evolution. I don't think the two need necessarily be mutually excusive - the Church certainly doesn't have the monopoly on the truth. What gets me, though, is that I'm almost certain that my belief in God and the afterlife flows from the fact that I'm afraid of being wrong, and that's quite sad.

Edited by thegodofhellfire on 06/18/04 08:28 PM.

Cornellius

06-19-2004, 02:11 AM

Dude, just say why you're in that religion.

__________________________________________________ _______________

'' I dreamt I was a moron '' - Squall Leonhart

Fla Flash

06-19-2004, 02:27 AM

Nope. Not to you.
You're not the deity I pray to.
Well, at least not this week. <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

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Diary of a Vigilante II....heroes live (http://www.freewebs.com/mewscorner/)

Fla Flash

06-19-2004, 02:29 AM

Oh good lord.
Take the steel spike outta your ass.
He was asking a question. How he set it up is nothing to be critiqued.
Ya either answer or you don't.
Sheesh.

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maq112k2

06-19-2004, 03:31 AM

> Okay, and go.

Not religious. Sure, I believe that there's something out there, yet I'm not sure what it is. Nonetheless, I'd rather follow my own path then the one everyone else takes. Not much to say about that.

Mr. Saturn

06-19-2004, 04:12 AM

> What about my religion should I justify? The whole religion?
> The reasons I'm a Christian? Justify God? I'm asking for a
> concentrated question. It's was a lazy thread with little or
> no thought.
>

Then please refrain from posting in it. I want to hear people's views on religion, and why they believe it, whether it's because of their upbringing or a personal journey that lead them to that point. If you would rather be pretentious and petty, please do that somewhere else. This isn't one of your liberal bashing threads. Thanks for stopping by.

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Cheezy: I bet someone will bring up Necrophilia.
Fla_Flash: That's pretty much a dead fucking issue.

icenine0

06-19-2004, 04:58 AM

Because I have too much going on in my life to bother with one.

The more often you fail, the sweeter the taste of success!

acromion

06-19-2004, 06:39 AM

> What gets me,
> though, is that I'm almost certain that my belief in God and
> the afterlife flows from the fact that I'm afraid of being
> wrong,

How so?

JadussD

06-19-2004, 08:47 AM

> How can you justify your religion?
>

you can't. i'm not going to sound like an ass and say "have you ever heard of kierkegaard?" but his whole "leap of faith" thing is what most christians i've met who are actually deep enough to think about the subject use to justify the whole "there's no way ever you can prove god exists, like, ever" thing. or maybe it's just the ones i've met, they were mostly lutherans. it's basically, life is an abyss. it's depression, despair, whatever. when you sink to the bottom, you're ready to truly embrace god (or give up, heh) and then you can truly be filled with the holy spirit. except that still doesn't prove that he exists, it just means that humans have the capacity to FEEL that god exists and loves them.

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SpaceTiger

06-19-2004, 09:11 AM

> you can't. i'm not going to sound like an ass and say "have
> you ever heard of kierkegaard?"

Good, because it wouldn't be appropriate. Of course I've heard of him, but the fact that a philosopher is famous does not mean that I'm obligated to agree with them. I certainly don't agree with Nietzsche.

> but his whole "leap of
> faith" thing is what most christians i've met who are
> actually deep enough to think about the subject use to
> justify the whole "there's no way ever you can prove god
> exists, like, ever" thing.

I'm not asking him to prove that god exists. Basically, everybody has a reason for their faith/spirtuality/lack thereof. By "justify your religion", I mean that he should demonstrate how he decided upon his set of beliefs. A reference to Kierkegaard is one example of a possible justification. Alternatively, he could say something like CEPeep said, where he admits to just doing as he was raised to do.

What I like about this thread is that it forces the responder to consider their beliefs and how they came to them. It's not about arguing whether or not I agree with their justification, it's about exploring the development of belief.

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Mr. Saturn

06-19-2004, 09:14 AM

> What I like about this thread is that it forces the
> responder to consider their beliefs and how they came to
> them. It's not about arguing whether or not I agree with
> their justification, it's about exploring the development of
> belief.

I'm glad someone got it.

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Cheezy: I bet someone will bring up Necrophilia.
Fla_Flash: That's pretty much a dead fucking issue.

Kuikorosu

06-19-2004, 09:15 AM

> Okay, and go.

Mountains're nice.

<hr>
Name: Kuik
Level: 34BLM /20RDM / 15THF / 9NIN/8WHM / 8SAM
Nation: Windurst
Server: Fenrir

JadussD

06-19-2004, 09:29 AM

> What I like about this thread is that it forces the
> responder to consider their beliefs and how they came to
> them. It's not about arguing whether or not I agree with
> their justification, it's about exploring the development of
> belief.

hmm, i seem to have put you on edge with this, i put the "i'm not going to be an ass..." thing about kierkegaard because lots of other people reading may NOT have heard of kierkegaard, and i was pretty much sure you have heard of him since you're like, a princeton graduate, and i when i post i try to make it not just an exchange between two people. justifying beliefs to me means defending their existence, and since this post was one of Mr. Saturn's familiar "here's a question that will cause a shitload of posts and contention, okay go" trolls, i figured that's what he was getting at as well.

as for nietzsche, i've basically just absorbed some of his ideas and moved on. i think he was flawed in a few ways, mainly in saying that humanity is something to be surpassed and then holding up humanity to the standard that would only be reasonable if it WAS surpassed. also the superman thing has way too many messianic overtones.

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SpaceTiger

06-19-2004, 10:13 AM

> hmm, i seem to have put you on edge with this

Sorry if I'm coming off as too confrontational. As you said earlier, communicating on the internet is hard.

> justifying beliefs to me means defending their
> existence

As it does to me, but I still don't see the problem. Your arguments from Kierkegaard are just as much a defense as any.

> and since this post was one of Mr. Saturn's
> familiar "here's a question that will cause a shitload of
> posts and contention, okay go" trolls, i figured that's what
> he was getting at as well.

A post that causes contention is not necessarily a troll, particularly in a political forum. In this case, I think the fact that people feel challenged by the question is healthy.

> as for nietzsche, i've basically just absorbed some of his
> ideas and moved on.

Likewise. I was just trying to give an extreme example of a philosopher for whom the phrase, "haven't you ever heard of...", would be absurd in defending a position. Consider the following:

"Of course it's ok to step on feet in making your way to the top. Haven't you ever heard of Nietzsche?"

Sadly, I had a teacher defend her abysmal teaching methods with a phrase like that.

http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif

thegodofhellfire

06-19-2004, 11:30 AM

> How so?

I think it's because I'd feel a bit of an ass when I die and find out there was an afterlife, and the only way into heaven was through God. I figured that it was worth making the investment for the 80 or so years I'll be around, rather than spend an eternity in the first ring of hell afterwards.

I just think it's quite tragic that my entire belief system is predicated on fear. I do suspect it's the same for a lot of people, though.

EDIT: Things get worse: it's the sixth ring of hell for me, apparently (http://www.pentaone.com/hannibal/danteinferno.shtml). Oh dear.

Edited by thegodofhellfire on 06/19/04 07:17 AM.

JadussD

06-19-2004, 11:36 AM

> Sadly, I had a teacher defend her abysmal teaching methods
> with a phrase like that.

wow, justifying actions supposedly inspired by nietzschean philosophy by refering to it as nietzschean? that's pretty self-referential and stupid.

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Danoz

06-19-2004, 02:23 PM

I think that's very wrong. I've found in my lifetime that people without a faith in God are empty and lost in this world... they are terrified of non-existance and often naively believe that people are good. This creates a situation where they make virtually nobody accountable for thier actions. One thing you will find, (and I really don't care about your personal experiances in a feeble attempt to counter this) but, for the most part, Christians are happy, very content people. I am a very content person with my life and who I am, and yes I can justify the reason I'm a Christian. I am a Christian because I know that the Lord set this incredible world into motion, that there was and is an intelligent designer of humans and animals. I also believe that sin and evil exist, and men are weak in the face of it. I believe that there are evil forces in this world, and that most people fail to recognize them, that they are blinded because they cloud the waters of morality and make all human concepts of this nature relative. And finally, and most importantly, I believe that Jesus Christ walked this Earth and died for the sins of man-- where he created a bridge to the Lord for the souls of all men to walk through. I have faith, I know, and I am happy.

edit: And finally, there's a reason why I don't go into a Mosque or a Jewish Temple at the end of the week. There's a reason why I don't pray to a goddess of the Earth. So many things have left me empty in my search, but all of those men profets spoken in the other faiths were buried somewhere... my Lord rose again.

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Danoz

06-19-2004, 02:31 PM

kierkegaard I've heard of (a Christian philosopher) but never read, and nietzsche I just found depressing and ultimately empty. I would love to have a discussion on different philosophers sometime, though.

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thegodofhellfire

06-19-2004, 02:34 PM

> I've found in my lifetime that people without a faith in God
> are empty and lost in this world.

Although the rest of that post is opinion to which you're fully entitled, I must say I find this statement fairly offensive. People not sharing your belief system are not empty and lost. Usually they're the people who don't have a hole in their life they need to fill with faith.

Danoz

06-19-2004, 02:35 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

I agree with SpaceTiger. Just talk about whatever you wish. Aside from some of your political views, I agree with you on a lot of things, and I think you'd probably be a nice guy to meet. I'm always interested in why people see things the way they do, and religion is certainly a part of that. It's simply food for thought. This thread isn't a religious argument, and you don't need to evangalize to anybody. Just talk about some things you belive, and say how you justify them

<hr></blockquote>

I created a post in response to JadussD about my faith. I really dind't think I was being an ass, though... I just asked for a specific question, is all. Everybody arguing with me over this was stupid. Ah well :P--- And I especially like most people here, even if we agree to disagree most of the time.

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thegodofhellfire

06-19-2004, 02:37 PM

> And I especially like most people here, even if we agree to
> disagree most of the time.

No we don't, we just disagree :P

Danoz

06-19-2004, 02:40 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

Although the rest of that post is opinion to which you're fully entitled, I must say I find this statement fairly offensive. People not sharing your belief system are not empty and lost. Usually they're the people who don't have a hole in their life they need to fill with faith.

<hr></blockquote>

Well, you can be offended or angry all day long. I could say that I'm offended by your implication that people of faith are weak and need holes to be filled. I don't come from a bad family or a painful life that drove me into Christianity, but I DO believe that everybody is searching and that I've found the answer. I'm not saying that won't sound arrogant to somebody who believes I'm part of an archaic cult, it most certainly will.

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Danoz

06-19-2004, 02:42 PM

> No we don't, we just disagree :P

Okay, then we disagree that we agree to disagree.

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thegodofhellfire

06-19-2004, 02:45 PM

> Well, you can be offended or angry all day long. I could say
> that I'm offended by your implication that people of faith
> are weak and need holes to be filled.

Okay, fine. Let's both be offended, and that'll be the end of it. My point is, though, that not everyone is "looking for the answers" (to use the common term). Most people are happy to just get on with their lives. If you think/know you've got it sussed, then all power to you. Just don't go pissing on the rest of us.

CEpeep

06-19-2004, 02:45 PM

> > Okay, and go.
>
> Mountains're nice.
>

This is the life.

<hr>
"Every gun that is made every warship launched every rocket fired signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed those who are cold and are not clothed"
Eisenhower

thegodofhellfire

06-19-2004, 02:46 PM

> Okay, then we disagree that we agree to disagree.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

Danoz

06-19-2004, 02:51 PM

I'm not pissing on anybody. This post was difficult for me because I could expect to get shit on. Let's me quite honest, I'm an outsider on this particular board. Any the closest friends I have that are agnostic can put on a happy front and be totally lost as they shift from faith to faith and belief to belief. If you're telling me somebody's happier if they become apathetic and say "screw it", I think you're totally wrong. I believe that any person who really persues it will find it the right way. And most people really aren't happy.

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CEpeep

06-19-2004, 02:53 PM

> Although the rest of that post is opinion to which you're
> fully entitled, I must say I find this statement fairly
> offensive. People not sharing your belief system are not
> empty and lost. Usually they're the people who don't have a
> hole in their life they need to fill with faith.

I'm not sure about the part where he says "faith in God." But I will agree with him that people who have no outlet for a spiritual side, do often seem empty and lost. Weather or not people use God as a spiritual outlet, I don't think matters. But having belief in some power or force that connects everyone (God, mother earth, etc.) does offer a sense of guidence in life.

<hr>
"Every gun that is made every warship launched every rocket fired signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed those who are cold and are not clothed"
Eisenhower

thegodofhellfire

06-19-2004, 03:04 PM

> This post was difficult for me because I could expect to get
> shit on.

Dude, look, as I said, I'm not going to bash your belief system itself. That would be a shitty thing to do, especially since you'd shown reluctance in articulating it in the first place. The small part of it with which I did take issue is saying that those not sharing your beliefs are "empty and lost". I considered that a character judgment that went outside the boundaries of acceptable personal opinion.

> If you're telling me somebody's happier if they become
> apathetic and say "screw it", I think you're totally wrong. I
> believe that any person who really persues it will find it the
> right way.

The last thing I'd want is for anyone to "become apathetic"! What I'm saying is that not everyone was looking for answers to start off with. It's something many people don't meaningfully consider. They can't fully understand the universe, so they don't think about it. Most people aren't constantly in existentialist angst, so it's essentially a non-issue to them. But that certainly doesn't make them empty.

> And most people really aren't happy.

Sure they are. From personal experience, it's the Church who propogates that particular myth. And Linkin Park.

Edited by thegodofhellfire on 06/19/04 10:11 AM.

thegodofhellfire

06-19-2004, 03:39 PM

> I'm not sure about the part where he says "faith in God."
> But I will agree with him that people who have no outlet for
> a spiritual side, do often seem empty and lost.

I think I covered broadly the same issues here (http://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=backroom&Number=231538&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0) (second paragraph), so I'll avoid retreading the same ground. I'm just not sure we're all born with a spiritual side. I do wonder if nobody had ever mentioned the concept of God, whether the idea would even have occurred to me. I'd have probably been content in the knowledge that I'll never understand the universe.

But what you say about a sense of guidance is quite interesting. I maintain that not having guidance from a higher power does not make a person who's not looking for it empty, but I can see how lost someone must feel is they're looking for the answers and can't find them.

SpaceTiger

06-19-2004, 04:42 PM

> I just think it's quite tragic that my entire belief system
> is predicated on fear.

What I find even more disturbing is that some people use the term "God-fearing" as if they're proud of it.

http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif

thegodofhellfire

06-19-2004, 04:46 PM

> What I find even more disturbing is that some people use the
> term "God-fearing" as if they're proud of it.

Yeah... very good point, now that you mention it.

Danoz

06-19-2004, 04:48 PM

Relax, and politely correct. This isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t a resume or a term paper. If you want to be a dickhead, do it somewhere else.

http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)

shawn

06-19-2004, 10:49 PM

I believe in what I can see so I am not religious even though there are things that are unexplainable it does not mean they were the cause of any diety. <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

Well there's one thing that makes the world at least tolerable.
Well maybe toterable as Bozo the fucken clown nailed to a white wall is tolerable.
-Quote from The Ranting Gryphon-

Lillymon

06-20-2004, 03:38 AM

It would be so incredibly easy for me to start flaming over this that I'm not going to even bother.

<marquee direction=left scrollamount=8><img src=http://home.graffiti.net/lillymon:graffiti.net/images/keletav.gif></marquee>
!luos ruoy tae lliw stelek ehT

Danoz

06-20-2004, 03:44 AM

> It would be so incredibly easy for me to start flaming over
> this that I'm not going to even bother.

Then why did you "even bother" with this post. You just sound arrogant and stupid when you say things like this. It's like telling the person in a chatroom that you're going to set them to ignore... you're not going to actually do it. So flame away! <img src=smilies/flipa.gif>

http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)

Disch

06-20-2004, 03:44 AM

This is exactly why he was hesitant on posting.

Can't he just post his beliefs without being attacked for once? I mean really. You don't have to agree... but you don't have to give him shit over it either.

Lillymon

06-20-2004, 03:50 AM

> This is exactly why he was hesitant on posting.
>
> Can't he just post his beliefs without being attacked for
> once? I mean really. You don't have to agree... but you
> don't have to give him shit over it either.

You thought that was me shitting over his beliefs? I don't think you've been paying attention to my past posting.

<marquee direction=left scrollamount=8><img src=http://home.graffiti.net/lillymon:graffiti.net/images/keletav.gif></marquee>
!luos ruoy tae lliw stelek ehT

Lillymon

06-20-2004, 03:53 AM

> Then why did you "even bother" with this post. You just
> sound arrogant and stupid when you say things like this.
> It's like telling the person in a chatroom that you're going
> to set them to ignore... you're not going to actually do it.
> So flame away!

If I really did flame, I'd risk getting banned. Because your post was so open to my flaming that I don't think I'd be able to stop myself.

So I'll just leave it at saying I find your entire belief system ridiculous, outdated and sometimes even dangerous.

<marquee direction=left scrollamount=8><img src=http://home.graffiti.net/lillymon:graffiti.net/images/keletav.gif></marquee>
!luos ruoy tae lliw stelek ehT

Disch

06-20-2004, 03:55 AM

> You thought that was me shitting over his beliefs? I don't
> think you've been paying attention to my past posting.

Apparently you completely missed the point... or you're just too stupid to see how big of an ass you're being.

The whole point of this thread is to explain your beliefs. We're not arguing who's right and who's wrong... we're just putting out our side... what we think. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp. And then you have to step in with your smart-ass "omg your beliefs are so stupid" post like some moronic little troll.

Get your foot out of your ass. Participate in the thread or stay out completely. This board gets hot enough without asswipes like you looking to start up trouble.

Lillymon

06-20-2004, 04:13 AM

> Apparently you completely missed the point... or you're just
> too stupid to see how big of an ass you're being.

I know I'm an ass. What of it?

> The whole point of this thread is to explain your beliefs.
> We're not arguing who's right and who's wrong... we're just
> putting out our side... what we think. It's not that hard
> of a concept to grasp. And then you have to step in with
> your smart-ass "omg your beliefs are so stupid" post like
> some moronic little troll.

Haha! Are you psychic or something? I'd swear you were responding to what I would've posted if I hadn't held back.

Criticising how he implied I'm scared of 'non-existence'? Or how he repeatedly said he knew God (a shapeless, invisible, intangible, omnipotent being) existed? Oh, or how about how he worships Jesus Christ who was (admit it) a man who claimed to be God.

I had paragraphs of this. But I decided to not be a complete asshole and not tear into the core of his beliefs without mercy. I wouldn't have actually posted at all if you hadn't responded.

> Get your foot out of your ass. Participate in the thread or
> stay out completely. This board gets hot enough without
> asswipes like you looking to start up trouble.

You know you love me.

<marquee direction=left scrollamount=8><img src=http://home.graffiti.net/lillymon:graffiti.net/images/keletav.gif></marquee>
!luos ruoy tae lliw stelek ehT

Disch

06-20-2004, 04:18 AM

> Haha! Are you psychic or something? I'd swear you were
> responding to what I would've posted if I hadn't held back.

I guess being an asshole comes so naturally to you that you don't even realize when you're being a complete fucktard.

You obviously are too dense to understand a single thing I said.. so I'm just going to drop it now.

Stay out of the thread please.

Lillymon

06-20-2004, 04:21 AM

> I guess being an asshole comes so naturally to you that you
> don't even realize when you're being a complete fucktard.

You're saying it's so easy for me to be an asshole that I don't even realize when I'm being a fucktard? You're not making sense.

> You obviously are too dense to understand a single thing I
> said.. so I'm just going to drop it now.

No, I just don't give a fuck.

> Stay out of the thread please.

Would you believe that my first post saying how I wasn't going to flame him because it was so easy was actually saying that I was going to stay out of the thread? Then you responded pulling me back into the thread? No, guess you wouldn't...

<marquee direction=left scrollamount=8><img src=http://home.graffiti.net/lillymon:graffiti.net/images/keletav.gif></marquee>
!luos ruoy tae lliw stelek ehT

Disch

06-20-2004, 04:27 AM

> No, I just don't give a fuck.

So you even admit you're trolling. You don't read what people say, you just retort to get a rise out of people. I'm suprised you're not banned. You should be.

> Would you believe that my first post saying how I wasn't
> going to flame him

You did flame him you dumbass. Reread what I said. You're just too dense/stupid to have a clue.

Lillymon

06-20-2004, 04:35 AM

> So you even admit you're trolling. You don't read what
> people say, you just retort to get a rise out of people.
> I'm suprised you're not banned. You should be.

On one forum, I trolled, outright asked to be banned and trolled again. I have never been banned even once from that forum.

> You did flame him you dumbass. Reread what I said. You're
> just too dense/stupid to have a clue.

That was a mild flame. I could've gone on for several paragraphs, used Google to get extra information to bolster my arguments and generally attempt to destroy his beliefs in my own unique way. I decided not to but I couldn't bring myself to just leave without posting anything.

I made a compromise and I didn't really intend to post again. Until you started up. Besides, didn't your last message really say how you were so much smarter than me and was ending it by not responding again?

<marquee direction=left scrollamount=8><img src=http://home.graffiti.net/lillymon:graffiti.net/images/keletav.gif></marquee>
!luos ruoy tae lliw stelek ehT

Disch

06-20-2004, 04:42 AM

> On one forum, I trolled, outright asked to be banned and
> trolled again. I have never been banned even once from that
> forum.

Yes... I'm sure you're real proud of that. It takes a big person to be an asshole on internet message boards where you're totally anonymous.

> That was a mild flame.

Whatever. It was a flame. You're an ass.

> I could've gone on for several paragraphs, used Google to get extra information to bolster
> my arguments and generally attempt to destroy his beliefs in
> my own unique way. I decided not to but I couldn't bring
> myself to just leave without posting anything.

yeah blah blah. So now you're a big person for holding back? Who are you trying to fool?

> I made a compromise

you didn't compromise jack shit. You stepped in a thread and trolled for no other reason than to piss Danoz off. That's all you ever fucking do on these boards.

> and I didn't really intend to post again. Until you started up.

I see. So now it's my fault that you're an ass. You really know how to shovel the shit when you need to.

> Besides, didn't your last
> message really say how you were so much smarter than me

If that's how you interpreted it... sure. But your comprehension skills are sub-par to say the least... so I doubt you could even understand what I was really saying.

> and was ending it by not responding again?

I did say that, but felt the need to correct you when you said you didn't flame him. This will be my last post.

Feel free to boost your ego by getting the last word in.

acromion

06-20-2004, 05:14 AM

I'm only mildly offended by your implication that non-religious people aren't happy. And when I say I'm mildly offeded, that means it's no more annoying than, say, an ant crawling up my leg. Nowhere near as bad as a fly which is buzzing around my food. I accept that you made that statement as a generalization, and it doesn't have to apply to all of us. However it's a bit of a big call to make anyway, and I'm not sure we can really say whether non-religious people are unhappy, as such.

However I think I'll go on to contradict myself to a degree by saying I agree with you that most of the hardcore christians I know do seem like 'happy' people. But by the same token, I personally see a lot of them as being very naieve people, which may go some way to explaining that.

Crazy_MYKL

06-20-2004, 06:04 AM

> Okay, and go.
>

I am an atheist, because a loving root wouldn't allow this world to be like this, and a cruel root would just make the air out of acid.

EDIT:/s/root/God

if ou-yay an-cay ead-ray his-tay, ou-yay ust-jay iolated-vay he-tay DMCAEdited by Crazy_MYKL on 06/20/04 01:11 AM.

icenine0

06-20-2004, 08:10 AM

> I am an atheist, because a loving root wouldn't allow this
> world to be like this, and a cruel root would just make the
> air out of acid.

What about a bored one?

The more often you fail, the sweeter the taste of success!

MooglyGuy

06-20-2004, 08:18 AM

> What about a bored one?

Well, that kind of root would make a world just like this.

http://www.zophar.net/Files/mooglish.png
"Kupo, motherfucker!! DO YOU SPEAK IT!?"

icenine0

06-20-2004, 09:28 AM

Hmmm... well, I've decided to be a bit more descriptive.

I'm a moderately spiritual person. If I'm in trouble, I'll pray for guidance.

I have no idea if I'm contacting anything when I do, but I don't think it's absurd to believe in a driving force behind individual consciousness. We're all here, and some differentiating element of the universe enables us to manipulate our environment and provide for our well-being. An undiscovered force allows simple protein chains to build, of their own accord, into self-sufficient lifeforms. This energy -- commonly referred to as 'God' -- manifests in human and animalkind, just as static crackles and collects into a lightning bolt.

Even barring that theory, I'm a strong adherent to "self-fulfilling prophecy": if someone believes in his/her abilites and goals, he/she has a much better chance of accomplishment. Prayer calms my nerves and strengthens my convictions. After all, if God's on my side, what do I have to lose?

Personal spirituality is perfectly okay by me. If man comes to his own conclusions about God, then I have no quarrel with him.

However, I have a severe dislike for organized religion. I see it as easily corrupted and used as an excuse for ignorance and atrocity. If Jesus had a message of peace, it was impaled on the bloody sword of the Catholic Church. Butchery is still butchery, even in the name of God.

I also see religions as subversive of individual reason and will. For example, here in Utah, a large portion of the population tithes 10% of their income to the LDS Church a year, before taxes. The Church offers no books, no public records. Where's this money going? It's anyone's guess, but members still blindly pony up the dough. Unquestioning faith in God is harmless; unquestioning faith in flawed humans and their institutions is absolutely dangerous and destructive.

The individual must always be wary. Powerful men and women will always twist organizations to their own ends. Before, it was religions; now it's corporations.

The more often you fail, the sweeter the taste of success!

Danoz

06-20-2004, 10:06 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

However I think I'll go on to contradict myself to a degree by saying I agree with you that most of the hardcore christians I know do seem like 'happy' people. But by the same token, I personally see a lot of them as being very naieve people, which may go some way to explaining that.

<hr></blockquote>

Well let me tell you what I've taken from this, "Christians are happy because ignorance is bliss"-- forgive me if this wasn't your point. However, for some people this is an echo of the truth, but it certainly isn't all encompassing. Still, in all fairness my post did imply that people without a faith in God are missing something, so we'll call even on this one. Just remember that while there are blind Christians, there also exist a number of blind/apathetic people who deny religion.
Now, if we're talking about teenagers this is often true... but often their faith is as young as their minds. I went into a youth group once as a kid, and not a single person in there had any knowledge of Martin Luther. This was a protestant church. On the flip side, in school-- even the mention of religion would land you a quick grunt of apathy.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "hardcore" Christians. People who just believe it? Pray? What I'm saying is that what determines a person's desire to be knowledgeable is their makeup, and there exist both intellectuals and simpletons on both sides of the coin.

http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)

Octocrook

06-20-2004, 10:21 AM

> Relax, and politely correct. This isn?â‚¬â„¢t a resume or a term
> paper. If you want to be a dickhead, do it somewhere else.

I agree with you there. My company deals with one of the largest, if not the largest loan company in the US, and I've lost count of how many times they've misspelled things even as important as addresses on the orders they place with us. This forum should be one of the last places to be critical of spelling.

<center>
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acromion

06-20-2004, 05:16 PM

> Well let me tell you what I've taken from this, "Christians
> are happy because ignorance is bliss"-- forgive me if this
> wasn't your point. However, for some people this is an echo
> of the truth, but it certainly isn't all encompassing.

You're forgiven, because I wasn't terribly clear to begin with. jk, jk. That's close to what I meant, but not quite: it's difficult for me to say it clearly. I don't see christians on the whole as being naieve; it's just a lot of the 'hardcore' ones that I know do seem to be. They do seem to blindly follow anything which is put to them by their respective churches, generally without thinking for themselves. For example, one friend who goes to university with me, when we were being taught about evolution, he dismissed it without listening. Thinking this was a bit strange, I asked him why he didn't listen to it all even if he disagreed, so that at least he could understand the theory - to which he replied, as if it were sage advice, "evolution is not the solution". My point is that he didn't even understand what he was saying, he was just repeating a slogan preached to him. To me, that's a very naieve way to live, blindly accepting your religion and dismissing anything which contradicts it without even thinking about it. If he did what the most of the other 'softcore' christians did, and actually listen to the theory, understand where it's coming from, and then decide whether or not it makes sense or contradicts their beliefs, that would have been great, no matter what he decided on.

One guy I know has an idea which kinda makes sense to me that when the bible was written, it was put into words and stories and metaphors that everyone could understand at the time, without our scientific knowledge. So for example say the earth was created by god in seven distinct eras, lasting millions of years each, with the process of evolution and all those other things occurring over a vast period of time - that's not a story people can comprehend or identify with as easily as seven days - and so the story was told to man as the metaphor of seven days. It's an idea that kind of allows both science and religion to hold true. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

Oh by the way 'hardcore' christians is just a term I use for those who are really strong in their beliefs, who go to church every week, not just easter, etc etc. You're probably like that yourself Danoz - basically they're the christians who follow their religion to the letter. Softcore are the other mob, who say they believe in God and are christians, but really don't do anything about it at all. I think a lot of them are just hedging their bets. <img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

Oh and again hope none of my vastly generalized comments are offensive, they're not meant to be. I'm just relating my own experiences with the few people that I know, and I really don't know how they translate to the wider community.

Danoz

06-20-2004, 07:09 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

You're forgiven, because I wasn't terribly clear to begin with. jk, jk. That's close to what I meant, but not quite: it's difficult for me to say it clearly. I don't see christians on the whole as being naieve; it's just a lot of the 'hardcore' ones that I know do seem to be.

<hr></blockquote>
Okay, I think where I'm mistaking you is this use of the word "hardcore". I wasn't sure if you meant "Somebody really devoted to his faith" or "close-minded fundamentalist".
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

They do seem to blindly follow anything which is put to them by their respective churches, generally without thinking for themselves. For example, one friend who goes to university with me, when we were being taught about evolution, he dismissed it without listening. Thinking this was a bit strange, I asked him why he didn't listen to it all even if he disagreed, so that at least he could understand the theory - to which he replied, as if it were sage advice, "evolution is not the solution".

<hr></blockquote>
Well, everybody knows that rhyming quotes supercede all logic :P. I think people here would be shocked at how much I've studied evolution. You see, believing something to be entirely true isn't without times of questioning. I'm not threatened by science, and no Christian should be. I'm convinced that becoming more knowledgeable about everything will only reinforce what I have come to believe is truth.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

My point is that he didn't even understand what he was saying, he was just repeating a slogan preached to him.

<hr></blockquote>
Well, I've heard this also. I took an evolution class and had a girl tell me, "Eh, that's so stupid. Like we actually came from monkeys." Such a quote is evidence that the person is totally ignorant to the actual theory, but feels the need to comment anyway. The Christians you speak of need to understand that we can't know how the creator of all things, created all things. Many scientists need to understand that evolution, as a theory, has many holes; we've all seen the diagram of ape's progression to human in a nice, straight line... but this is a fantasy. The actual line is more like a unending (and constantly changing) web with so many dead ends and lost trails that we can only speculate at this point.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

To me, that's a very naieve way to live, blindly accepting your religion and dismissing anything which contradicts it without even thinking about it.

<hr></blockquote>
Well, I don't believe it's contradicted. The Lord gave us minds capable of searching and thinking, in no way did he want them caged.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

If he did what the most of the other 'softcore' christians did, and actually listen to the theory, understand where it's coming from, and then decide whether or not it makes sense or contradicts their beliefs, that would have been great, no matter what he decided on.

<hr></blockquote>
Of course he should have, if only to become more educated.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

One guy I know has an idea which kinda makes sense to me that when the bible was written, it was put into words and stories and metaphors that everyone could understand at the time, without our scientific knowledge. So for example say the earth was created by god in seven distinct eras, lasting millions of years each, with the process of evolution and all those other things occurring over a vast period of time - that's not a story people can comprehend or identify with as easily as seven days - and so the story was told to man as the metaphor of seven days. It's an idea that kind of allows both science and religion to hold true. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

<hr></blockquote>
Well I don't see a place for one without the other; I try not to create "theories" mingling them, though. Why not? Because to do so is pushing into a realm of pseudo-science that will never make sense. I'm claiming ignorance in the face of God. I don't know how he created the Earth, but I imagine there's no harm in trying to find out.

http://www.spazticplastic.com/bannerbaby.gif (http://www.spazticplastic.com)

Canar

06-20-2004, 08:07 PM

> Okay, and go.

God has shown me, by altering my personality slightly at key points, that he/she/it/they/whatever (I use he, as it's well understood in Christian context anyhow) exists. It took a hell of a lot of introspection to realize this. Furthermore, he's shown me that he has a purpose for my life; if he didn't make those alterations, things would be radically different for me.

After that point, my faith seemed to grow of its own. I suspect that this may have something to do with self-delusion, but it ultimately doesn't really matter. If God does have some purpose for my life and can alter my personality to show himself to me, I doubt he'll allow me to become self-deluded about him in any way other than a constructive way, assuming I maintain my rigorous introspective regime.

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MasterHD

06-21-2004, 08:10 AM

> Okay, and go.

I think many religions try to explain the "unexplainable" so that people can feel good about themselves. But me, I don't beleive something without proof, so I can't deny or prove that god exists. I beleive in the big bang theory and evolution and many other scientific theories. Over time my religious views may change depending on new discoveries. I am open-minded, I want the truth, and I want to search for the truth. I don't expect to ever know the truth in my lifetime, nor do I expect the human race to find it for many many more centuries.

Views like mine can be depressing, the feeling of being insignificant in such a large universe. I understand why religions exist. Religions give people hope, explanations, and guidance, but I personally can not believe something that can be proven wrong. I will let others believe what they want, and I won't use logical arguments that could easily crush their beliefs (not that they would accept it anyway, because many people are not open-minded about religion).

________________________________________________
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WhyteKnight

06-21-2004, 10:54 AM

> need holes to be filled.

Tee hee hee...<img src=smilies/laff.gif><img src=smilies/laff.gif><img src=smilies/laff.gif>

<center><a href=http://faith.rydia.net/>http://www.girls-tacos.com/whyteknight/button_raven2.jpg</a></center>

WhyteKnight

06-21-2004, 11:53 AM

On a by and large unrelated note, you should read the book Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. I don't know why that came up but it seems like the thing to do. Its mostly just an amusing fiction book but it makes a few neat points about belief and stuff

<center><a href=http://faith.rydia.net/>http://www.girls-tacos.com/whyteknight/button_raven2.jpg</a></center>

acromion

06-23-2004, 11:14 AM

> I don't know how he created the Earth, but I
> imagine there's no harm in trying to find out.

Well said
<img src=smilies/thumb.gif>

Audigy

06-23-2004, 06:28 PM

> > Mountains're nice.
> >
> This is the life.

*steals a Power Tab*

Compared to some of you, I probably have a pretty jacked-up view of religion.

The bottom line though:
I don't care.

Religion was brought into my life as part of a... way to make my mother feel better, I think. Here's the story:

My mother's side of the family is composed of nothing but devout Catholics. My grandfather (mom's dad) died, and apparently he wanted nothing more of his daughter than to raise her children as "good Catholics" ...so, you can guess what happened. A mere few weeks after my grandfather died, mom started hauling us (my brother and I) to church on Sundays, enrolling us in Catholic education classes (ugh) and... things seem to have changed overnight. Of course, this only lasted a few years (...but long enough for me to be baptized and receive my first communion in 8th grade) I never quite understood going to church or even believing in a higher power, and I have a hunch that wasting my time believing in anything other than myself will do no good in the long run. I have no idea what happens when someone dies, but I will be sure to tell you guys as soon as I have a first-hand report.

In retrospect, my parents bringing me into religion in the way they did seems like a big joke, and I generally roll my eyes at organized religion due to the fanatics who insist on preaching about how it saved their life or whatever. I am an adamant hedonist. I am guaranteed to have myself through 100% of my life, so that's what I'm going to focus my attention on. :) Conversely, I am also open to any idea, but I like to be left to choose at the end instead of having something forced down my throat. I'm not sure who originally said this, but it's a great quote:

"Jesus/Allah/God/insert person of worship here" is a great guy/idea/whatever, it's just his/its fanclub I can't stand."

Sorry for the mishmash of ideas up there... but yeah. I think I've justified my lack of religion. (?)

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UncleOral

06-24-2004, 03:24 AM

> Criticising how he implied I'm scared of 'non-existence'? Or
> how he repeatedly said he knew God (a shapeless, invisible,
> intangible, omnipotent being) existed? Oh, or how about how
> he worships Jesus Christ who was (admit it) a man who
> claimed to be God.

Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that the concept of 'non-existance' doesn't terrify you? It is one of the very reasons religion exists.
It certainly terrifies me, and it makes me curse that I am so realistic. I'm not saying I am completely apathetic and lifeless, quite the contrary. I just don't care enough for it to be an issue that occupies my mind at all times.

As for how Danoz knows God exists, he has to. It's just that simple. There can be no doubt, or the purpose will fail.
Just as a mentally challenged person lives a much happier life than any of us because he doesn't know any better, a person who fully and strictly believes in his religion and afterlife will be happier than one who doesn't, but again, this doesn't mean agnostics and atheists are all sad empty beings 'searching for the light'. Some (like me), simply do note care enough, or have other reasons, people are and always will be different.

I realize the 'mentally challenged' comment is going to piss off some people, but they do live happier lives than us, and 'ignorance is bliss' is the cornerstone of religion; creating your own reality, a perfect illusion to cover your fear, nothing is more effective.

There was an ancient Samurai technique a friend of mine told me about which involves much the same. A person would eat a full course meal, and continue eating to the point where he couldn't eat another bite. He would then meditate upon the fact that he was stuffed by doing a symbol on his chest for hours.
Now, after doing this for years, the person would have tricked his mind so completely that if he ever entered a life threatening situation where he couldn't find any food, he would meditate upon the symbol and immediately feel much better, effectively improving his chances of survival mentally AND physically (a perfect illusion).

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Paladyn

06-24-2004, 03:28 AM

> I am an atheist, because a loving root wouldn't allow this
> world to be like this, and a cruel root would just make the
> air out of acid.
>
> EDIT:/s/root/God

I think that this is the best possible world, given free will.

Of all the words of thought or pen, the saddest are these: "what might have been".

Paladyn

06-24-2004, 03:32 AM

> Okay, and go.
>
It's not my job to justify my religion. It's God's. As a Christian, it's my job to present the Gospel of Jesus to others, and the Holy Spirit's job to convince them of it.

Of all the words of thought or pen, the saddest are these: "what might have been".

AuroEdge

06-24-2004, 03:43 AM

A theory is a hypothesis, basically a good guess usually. I'm not trying to be an uptight wh***. If you want proof that something like the natural things you said for example, a natural law or proof would be more attuned to your viewpoint I think. Something to think about is for those of you who believe in the Christian God or any supreme being for that matter, what's more important to you? The belief in Him or the belief in the existance of Him?

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UncleOral

06-24-2004, 04:02 AM

> Relax, and politely correct. This isn?â‚¬â„¢t a resume or a term
> paper. If you want to be a dickhead, do it somewhere else.

"Bad spelling can be lethal. For example, the greedy Seriph of Al-Yabi was cursed by a badly-educated deity and for some days everything he touched turned to Glod, which happened to be the name of a small dwarf from a mountain community hundreds of miles away who found himself magically dragged to the kingdom and relentlessly duplicated. Some two thousand Glods later the spell wore off. These days, the people of Al-Yabi are renowned for being remarkably short and bad-tempered."

-- (Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad)

(Sorry, just had to try and lighten up the thread a bit)

:)

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Canar

06-24-2004, 04:06 AM

> What I find even more disturbing is that some people use the
> term "God-fearing" as if they're proud of it.

"Fear" in that context doesn't refer to the emotion that causes one to be afraid, its meaning is somewhat different, as is explained http://www.bible.com/devotionals/devote47.htmlhere</a>. Like all Bible verses, there's some debate about meaning, but that link appears to give the generally accepted explanation, or part of it.

Danoz, care to comment?

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SpaceTiger

06-24-2004, 04:08 AM

"The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate."

Heck, by that definition I would be "God-fearing"... if I believed in evil, that is.

http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif

Lillymon

06-24-2004, 05:43 AM

> Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that the concept of
> 'non-existance' doesn't terrify you?

*Puts hand on heart*

Non-existance does not terrify me. In fact, it doesn't even make me nervous. I am scared of wasting my single life in the hopes of getting into a heaven that I don't even think exists though.

> It is one of the very reasons religion exists.

Once again, religion gets exposed as ruling by fear. Do this, do that, worship only our religion or God will make your life miserable and/or refuse to let you into heaven. Blah blah blah. Heard it all before.

> It certainly terrifies me, and it makes me curse that I am
> so realistic. I'm not saying I am completely apathetic and
> lifeless, quite the contrary. I just don't care enough for
> it to be an issue that occupies my mind at all times.

I don't care about it at all. I was never worried about it, and my increasing amount of apathy about virtually everything makes me care even less about it. I could make my very own apathetic anti-religion right now.

> As for how Danoz knows God exists, he has to. It's just that
> simple. There can be no doubt, or the purpose will fail.

Since Danoz got so incredibly pissy over gay marriages because they violated the dictionary definition of marriage, I'm going to get pissy here because Danoz saying he knows God exists violates the dictionary definition of the word!

Let's take a look at the definitions applicable here:

1. To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty.

OK, if Danoz is certain, then I can be certain too. Let's see, a book says he exists? People write books and people lie. Not good enough.

2. To regard as true beyond doubt: I know she won't fail.

I'll be 'she' failed. Danoz will be the first to admit humans are an imperfect species and simply regarding something as true beyond doubt doesn't mean that it is.

All in all, Danoz has a strong belief, but he hasn't spoken face-to-face with God and so doesn't know shit. I don't know shit either, which is why I'm an agnostic.

> Just as a mentally challenged person lives a much happier
> life than any of us because he doesn't know any better, a
> person who fully and strictly believes in his religion and
> afterlife will be happier than one who doesn't.

Hmm... comparing the mentally retarded and Danoz. Maybe we do think alike.

> But again, this doesn't mean agnostics and atheists are all sad
> empty beings 'searching for the light'. Some (like me), simply do
> note care enough, or have other reasons, people are and
> always will be different.

I tried religion. It didn't work. What the hell was I praying to? God? Where's God? Everything around me was built by man. The bible was written by men. It all felt like a lie. How could I worship what I believed to be a lie?

> I realize the 'mentally challenged' comment is going to piss
> off some people, but they do live happier lives than us, and
> 'ignorance is bliss' is the cornerstone of religion;
> creating your own reality, a perfect illusion to cover your
> fear, nothing is more effective.

<img src=smilies/laff.gif>

I like you. A lot.

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Mr. Saturn

06-24-2004, 05:46 AM

> Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that the concept of
> 'non-existance' doesn't terrify you? It is one of the very
> reasons religion exists.

I'm happy with my life right now, and no, my own non-existance doesn't frighten me in the least. The only non-existance I'm afraid of is my family's, as I'm the youngest and probably the healthiest. Non-existance, to me, truly is bliss. There is nothing. No extreme pleasure, no extreme pain, no painful memories, absolutely nothing.

> Just as a mentally challenged person lives a much happier
> life than any of us because he doesn't know any better *snip*

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
-George Bernard Shaw

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UncleOral

06-24-2004, 06:40 AM

> *Puts hand on heart*
>
> Non-existance does not terrify me. In fact, it doesn't even
> make me nervous. I am scared of wasting my single life in
> the hopes of getting into a heaven that I don't even think
> exists though.

Well, that is what I meant. I'm not entirely sure if I believe anyone telling me they aren't even one tiny little bit frightened when thinking about their own demise. It's not like it's something to be ashamed of, I consider it as natural as taking a leak.

> OK, if Danoz is certain, then I can be certain too. Let's
> see, a book says he exists? People write books and people
> lie. Not good enough.
> All in all, Danoz has a strong belief, but he hasn't spoken
> face-to-face with God and so doesn't know shit. I don't know
> shit either, which is why I'm an agnostic.

Well, yes...you could ask yourself what would be the point of it all if he didn't firmly believe in it, though. Then again, most of the world do believe in a sort of half assed way, so I guess it works. :)

> I like you. A lot.

Let's make out behind the ZD tool-shed. http://www.penny-arcade.com/forums/images/smiles/winky.gif

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Kuikorosu

06-24-2004, 07:00 AM

Hay...you jacked my threadjack with something that's on topic. How dare you? <img src=smilies/cwm27.gif>

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Crazy_MYKL

06-24-2004, 08:30 PM

> Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that the concept of
> 'non-existance' doesn't terrify you?

I can't even prove I exist in the first place. Any argument that I can think of allowing existence is inherently circular.

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SpaceTiger

06-24-2004, 08:38 PM

> I think that this is the best possible world, given free
> will.

Agreed, but then what would heaven be? Would it have to lack free will?

http://qonos.princeton.edu/nbond/tiger5.gif

icenine0

06-24-2004, 09:02 PM

Y'all needs to read some http://www.literature.org/authors/voltaire/candide/chapter-01.htmlCandide</A>.

> I think that this is the best possible world, given free
> will.
>

The more often you fail, the sweeter the taste of success!

Kijutsu

06-25-2004, 02:59 AM

> Okay, and go.
>
I think too damn much. Therefore I need to have specific proof that something or someone exists. mebbe I'm wrong, mebbe I'm not. But I need to have proof either way. <img src=smilies/banghead.gif> Kinda like.. did the egg or the chicken come first?

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acromion

06-25-2004, 03:45 AM

> Y'all needs to read some Candide.

Hmmm... I thought that said 'Candida'... wasn't sure if I wanted to click on it after that... <img src=smilies/retard.gif>

MooglyGuy

06-25-2004, 03:54 AM

I WIN!

http://www.zophar.net/Files/mooglish.png
"Kupo, motherfucker!! DO YOU SPEAK IT!?"

MooglyGuy

06-25-2004, 03:57 AM

> I think too damn much. Therefore I need to have specific
> proof that something or someone exists. mebbe I'm wrong,
> mebbe I'm not. But I need to have proof either way.
> Kinda like.. did the egg or the chicken come first?

I dunno, there can be two different answers to that question.

Answer 1, the Incoerent Danoz Answer: "God created Eden and all of its inhabitants within, including Adam and Eve, and thusly the chicken came first because before the chicken was created by God, there was no chicken, and thus no breakfast, which can include things such as breakfast cereal and orange juice."

Answer 2, the Rational Answer: "Organisms eventually evolved the ability to lay eggs, which hatched into more organisms, and over eons and eons, the chicken eventually evolved from that, so the egg came first."

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"Kupo, motherfucker!! DO YOU SPEAK IT!?"

Goku

06-25-2004, 04:58 AM

I am part of the cult of Elvis. I believe that Elvis never left the building so to speak. I believe that instead though his music he ascended to a new level of consciousness. I believe that through the songs and movies of Elvis you can achieve self perfection.

The movies of Elvis show how life is suppose to be lived. They are the one and only gospel. His songs are psalms to be sung for all time.

Elvis is god. Elvis is perfection. Elvis is the Omega, the Alpha and the Sigma. Long live the king!

Here is how I justify my religion: I am right you are wrong. Why? Just because.

<img src=smilies/magbiggrin.gif>

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

UncleOral

06-25-2004, 09:52 AM

> "have you ever heard of kierkegaard?"

It annoys me that I haven't, of course, I haven't participated in any philosophic discussions that involved quoting any writers, nor read too many books. :\

Where is he from? I'm asking because incidentally, "Kierkegaard" is awfully similar to the Norwegian word "KirkegÃƒÂ¥rd" (two A's is the exact same as 'Ãƒâ€¦'), which means 'Graveyard'.
To be more specific, "Kirke" means 'Church', and "Gaard\GÃƒÂ¥rd" means 'Farm' but also 'Yard'.

...

Ok I'll stop rambling now.

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Lillymon

06-25-2004, 10:08 AM

> I can't even prove I exist in the first place. Any argument that I can
> think of allowing existence is inherently circular.

In real life, I'd just punch the other person in the face and say if we don't exist, then that didn't just happen.

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king killa

06-25-2004, 09:21 PM

The egg came first because dinosaurs laid eggs millions of years before chickens existed. <img src=http://www.zophar.net/wwwthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif>

HUMANOID

06-25-2004, 10:38 PM

> Okay, and go.
--------------------------------
i very much would like to comment more but i will say that when it comes to this subject i am so far advanced that you all look to me as a bigger drooling idiot then i do.
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punjman

06-27-2004, 04:01 PM

> Oh, or how about how he worships Jesus Christ who was (admit it) a man who claimed to be God.

He never claimed to be God.

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Lillymon

06-27-2004, 05:08 PM

> He never claimed to be God.

Well that's even more interesting...

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Paladyn

06-27-2004, 09:29 PM

> He never claimed to be God.

Yeah he did.

Jesus said in John 10:30:

"I and my Father are one." (in context speaking of God)

31-33 follows:

31: Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32: Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33: The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Of all the words of thought or pen, the saddest are these: "what might have been".

punjman

06-27-2004, 10:21 PM

> Jesus said in John 10:30:
>
> "I and my Father are one." (in context speaking of God)

It's interesting how one could read that, and take it for what it was worth, out of context. Keep reading past 33.

King James Version:

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

__________________________________________________

Revised Standard Version:

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'?
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),
36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

__________________________________________

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures:

34Ã‚Â*Jesus answered them: Ã¢â‚¬Å“Is it not written in your Law, Ã¢â‚¬ËœI said: Ã¢â‚¬Å“YOU are godsÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬â„¢?
35Ã‚Â*If he called Ã¢â‚¬ËœgodsÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified,
36Ã‚Â*do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, Ã¢â‚¬ËœYou blaspheme,Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ because I said, I am GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Son?
37Ã‚Â*If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me.
38Ã‚Â*But if I am doing them, even though YOU do not believe me, believe the works, in order that YOU may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.
_______________________________

He wasn't claiming he was God, or A god. He was claiming to be GOD'S SON. Which he was/is.

Secondly, how is it that one could claim he was God, (in this text.. "The Father") yet, at the same time, also say he was doing the works of "his father"? If he was doing the works of "Person B", how is it he could CLAIM to be both "Person A", AND "Person B"? Wouldn't he just be doing his OWN works, or teachings?

PUNJ!
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